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Exercise for the mind let us spark some synapses!
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Posted 6/24/10
I must thank my ADD sometimes for the way I think.

I have created a exercise I like to test it on the people of the ED in Crunchyroll.

This is a challenge to take what I say and brake it up into a few brackets.

1. Try to figure out how this could work. And Rationalize it best you can.
2. Discus the implications of such a thing the good and the bad side affects.
3. Explain your personal view on what this could bring around. Changes, good or bad.
4. Any other Notes you like to add...

Now on to the object of scrutiny.

I today bring to your attentions on to a device that would allow you to take matter brake it down than restructure it into another form, allowing you to brake down matter from solar power than give it another form like H2O.. Or Metals.
Braking down Garbage or rocks to make for other Structures. I am going off the concept that matter than not be destroyed that matter can only be changed to other forms instead. And so A device that takes matter brakes it down and gives in another form. Hence creating Gold from Led, Food from Dirt, Metal from trash, and Clothing from feces.
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Posted 6/24/10

1) well... assuming you could break anything down just a bunch of protons and electrons then reassemble them as different configurations of protons and electrons (or if you really want to get fancy break them down to quarks and assemble the quarks).

I imagine the energy expenditure (and release) to do this would be .... Well I couldn't calculate it. but assuming you could. maybe your device is robust enough to contain the nuclear energy release involved in ripping open so many atoms and then catches and stores it to use for the humongous energy outlay needed to smash the next set of atoms apart. (You know I don't think I'd want the soviet version of this tech operating in MY backyard...)

I think it would be relatively easy given the above to turn any matter into an 'elemental goo' putting it back together though would involve increasing computer power and technical sophistication.

ie Any amount of matter to an equal mass of any stable uniform element. EASY
Any amount of matter into an equal mass of a simple chemical (ie H2O) Not Hard.
Any amount of matter into a complex chemical (iso-cyanate plastic) okay if you're doing in sheets and blocks.

and so on with say mono material toys and tools being harder yet.
complex objects with precision components and multiple materials (themselves complex chemicals harder yet)
and many celled life forms hardest of all.

however even at the 'OKAY' level. and even assuming the machine plays fair with the second law of thermodynamics (ie you can turn piss to oil but it will use more energy than burning the oil will give you back)

It would induce a radical change in the propsperity and technical proliferation of human society.

Some extreme examples might include:

Over production and comsumption needs reverse our current perception of socio-economics. (ie the Wealthy Can afford to live the 'simple life' while the 'poor' are forced do devote their time to constantly consuming new products.)

The effective ability for every material need to be met for every person on the planet alters our perception of wealth from what you own to what you can DO.

The above ideas are not my own. I'm an avid sci reader.



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Posted 6/24/10 , edited 6/24/10
That's one epic power. Its a power on a comparable level to god, to be able to control base matter any way you please. That's an absolute absolute power. Nobody could defy you as you could just break them down into nothing more than free hydrogen atoms. Entire countries could be broken down into base particles lol. Or nuked on demand. Would render all military technology useless and obsolete.

On the other hand, it has limitless scientific applications, from creating super heavy elements by the ton, to accelerating particles to Yotta-electron-volts. Could cure cancer by breaking it down into nothing. So on. Might even be able to create wormholes with it. Could create ultra tiny supercomputers on a nanometer process scale.

It has limitless construction application as well, could build entire cities from nothing more than dirt. Space stations from dirt. Moon bases could be build from moon dirt on the moon. Same applies to mars bases as well. Entire planets could be terraformed with it.

Well assuming the device that does is isn't some building sized device powered by its own nuclear power plant. While it could still do all the things I said, take out the building and its all over for whoever possesses it. If it was some pocket sized device that ran off of batteries, were all sol.

At its simplest it would be a device that just neutralizes the strong force, the electrostatic repulsion of the protons in atoms would push the atom apart all on its own.
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Posted 6/24/10
Dam where is Scottie when I need him hell I cannot beam up. Well if it were, possible people would start looking like sea cow Manatees lay around and eating all the time. Ever thing that or just restructure neutrons protons electrons turn it to raw material, by this device. This device would stop progress people getting they needs meet hell word peace then again to fat to move anyways.. The environmentalist would happy second thoughts just find something else to bitch about .you see if Scottie was here is he could tell me how it works. Everything I have seen manufactured product there waist and chemicals no longer good. I realy will have take a good dump and think this one through.
Posted 6/24/10
Alchemy. Change elements to others and then form the molecules into a desired shape. Doing this would require a highly advanced system. People have long tried to make gold from lead and vice versa. Maybe, if we really want to, diamonds can be made from mere junk.
Posted 6/24/10
Personally, I would limit the use of a "replicator"(TM pending?) down to fabricating simple tools and fashioning raw materials. Can't let the machines have all the fun for obvious reason.
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1. The only way I could imagine it working is if it breaks atoms into sub-atomic particles (which would defy the law of conservation of matter) then rearrange them and add/remove sub-atomic particles in order to create different atoms than the ones that were originally there. I don't know enough about physics or chemistry to be able to guess whether or not that would even be possible in theory.

2 & 3. The most obvious positive side effect is that all waste matter could be converted into resources. We wouldn't have to worry about where to dump garbage or handling biological waste since we could just convert it into something useful like food or water. Something that I would consider to be a positive that many other might think is negative is that the value of goods would drastically decrease, or have no value at all, since there would essentially be an infinite supply of anything and everything. If everyone could just go in their backyard, grab a rock or a chunk of dirt, and make a diamond or a car or an Xbox out of it, then there's no point in ever buying anything, or even working. So there would be no economy since everyone would have everything and there would not be a need to exchange goods and services, which is a good thing IMO. Of course this is assuming that the machine is mass-produced.

A potential problem is, if the machine isn't mass-produced, then who gets to use it and for what purpose? It's easy to imagine what harm could come from this: a government creating an infinite supply of weapons for the army, or a business creating and infinite amount of goods with very little or no workers at all, meaning less jobs for the common people and insanely high profits for those businesses, creating an even bigger gap between the rich and poor.

Another problem is, if it is mass-produced and the majority of people own one, then the population would spiral out of control since everyone would have an infinite supply of food, water, and shelter. So having and raising kids would be much cheaper and somewhat easier, and more people would do it. This would mean that more people would inhabit places that are currently uninhabited by humans, and the need for environmental conservation would disappear since no one would need to get any resources directly from nature anymore. It could allow humans to cover ever single square inch of the Earth's landmasses and wipe out every other plant and animal on the planet, assuming we could synthesize oxygen (probably just use the CO2 we exhale and convert it), and we would live in a barren world where all we do is consume and reproduce without any regard for anyone else.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.
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Posted 6/24/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:

1. The only way I could imagine it working is if it breaks atoms into sub-atomic particles (which would defy the law of conservation of matter) then rearrange them and add/remove sub-atomic particles in order to create different atoms than the ones that were originally there. I don't know enough about physics or chemistry to be able to guess whether or not that would even be possible in theory.

2 & 3. The most obvious positive side effect is that all waste matter could be converted into resources. We wouldn't have to worry about where to dump garbage or handling biological waste since we could just convert it into something useful like food or water. Something that I would consider to be a positive that many other might think is negative is that the value of goods would drastically decrease, or have no value at all, since there would essentially be an infinite supply of anything and everything. If everyone could just go in their backyard, grab a rock or a chunk of dirt, and make a diamond or a car or an Xbox out of it, then there's no point in ever buying anything, or even working. So there would be no economy since everyone would have everything and there would not be a need to exchange goods and services, which is a good thing IMO. Of course this is assuming that the machine is mass-produced.

A potential problem is, if the machine isn't mass-produced, then who gets to use it and for what purpose? It's easy to imagine what harm could come from this: a government creating an infinite supply of weapons for the army, or a business creating and infinite amount of goods with very little or no workers at all, meaning less jobs for the common people and insanely high profits for those businesses, creating an even bigger gap between the rich and poor.

Another problem is, if it is mass-produced and the majority of people own one, then the population would spiral out of control since everyone would have an infinite supply of food, water, and shelter. So having and raising kids would be much cheaper and somewhat easier, and more people would do it. This would mean that more people would inhabit places that are currently uninhabited by humans, and the need for environmental conservation would disappear since no one would need to get any resources directly from nature anymore. It could allow humans to cover ever single square inch of the Earth's landmasses and wipe out every other plant and animal on the planet, assuming we could synthesize oxygen (probably just use the CO2 we exhale and convert it), and we would live in a barren world where all we do is consume and reproduce without any regard for anyone else.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.


Lemme try this again, first time didn't quite read that that right.

If it is mass produced, then anyone could start up their own businesses for whatever the price of the machine is. Then truly anyone has a shot at becoming a multi-millionaire.

If its not mass produced, then how much ? a billion dollars ? Then yea your right, A million ? Might be able to take out a bank loan for that but i dunno. if its 100,000$, then you could probably just take out a loan at a bank or something, unless you have utterly no businesses sense your pretty much guaranteed to make that loan back.

And it could also be used as a weapon of some kind, it would be able to break down people and entire structures into nothing more than free atoms, so I see major potential for abuse there.
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Posted 6/25/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:

1. The only way I could imagine it working is if it breaks atoms into sub-atomic particles (which would defy the law of conservation of matter) then rearrange them and add/remove sub-atomic particles in order to create different atoms than the ones that were originally there. I don't know enough about physics or chemistry to be able to guess whether or not that would even be possible in theory.

2 & 3. The most obvious positive side effect is that all waste matter could be converted into resources. We wouldn't have to worry about where to dump garbage or handling biological waste since we could just convert it into something useful like food or water. Something that I would consider to be a positive that many other might think is negative is that the value of goods would drastically decrease, or have no value at all, since there would essentially be an infinite supply of anything and everything. If everyone could just go in their backyard, grab a rock or a chunk of dirt, and make a diamond or a car or an Xbox out of it, then there's no point in ever buying anything, or even working. So there would be no economy since everyone would have everything and there would not be a need to exchange goods and services, which is a good thing IMO. Of course this is assuming that the machine is mass-produced.

A potential problem is, if the machine isn't mass-produced, then who gets to use it and for what purpose? It's easy to imagine what harm could come from this: a government creating an infinite supply of weapons for the army, or a business creating and infinite amount of goods with very little or no workers at all, meaning less jobs for the common people and insanely high profits for those businesses, creating an even bigger gap between the rich and poor.

Another problem is, if it is mass-produced and the majority of people own one, then the population would spiral out of control since everyone would have an infinite supply of food, water, and shelter. So having and raising kids would be much cheaper and somewhat easier, and more people would do it. This would mean that more people would inhabit places that are currently uninhabited by humans, and the need for environmental conservation would disappear since no one would need to get any resources directly from nature anymore. It could allow humans to cover ever single square inch of the Earth's landmasses and wipe out every other plant and animal on the planet, assuming we could synthesize oxygen (probably just use the CO2 we exhale and convert it), and we would live in a barren world where all we do is consume and reproduce without any regard for anyone else.

Maybe I'm just paranoid.


2&3 would possibly lead to either the topsy turvey economy. Wealth = simplicity, Poverty = forced to devote time to consuming.

or... MY favourite: a socio-economic pecking order based on personal skills and efforts/accomplishments rather than birth/possessions.
ie,,, Doing something 'ANYTHING' = rich. IDLE = poor.


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Posted 6/25/10

Allhailodin wrote:
If it is mass produced, then anyone could start up their own businesses for whatever the price of the machine is. Then truly anyone has a shot at becoming a multi-millionaire.


If it is mass produced, that means that it will be cheap and widely available, so the majority of people will own it. If the majority of people own one, then there is no need for them to ever buy any product again, since they can make anything that is useless into something useful. So if most people aren't buying anything, then no one can make any profit through the exchange of goods. There would be too much supply and little demand, so nothing would have any sort of monetary value since anyone can make an large supply of it for themselves. No one would be a multi-millionaire because money would become useless.


If its not mass produced, then how much ? a billion dollars ? Then yea your right, A million ? Might be able to take out a bank loan for that but i dunno. if its 100,000$, then you could probably just take out a loan at a bank or something, unless you have utterly no businesses sense your pretty much guaranteed to make that loan back.


If it's not mass produced then it wouldn't be widely available because there would only be one or a few of them in the whole world. In that situation I doubt a person would be able to simply take out a loan and buy it, but if it were possible then the person would not even need to sell anything to make that money back, because they could just create something of equal value to pay it off, like create a bunch gold. So even if there are only a few in the world, it still could drastically decrease or even eliminate the value of goods, depending on what it's used for, especially since the person could just replicate the machine themselves and give them out to everyone.


And it could also be used as a weapon of some kind, it would be able to break down people and entire structures into nothing more than free atoms, so I see major potential for abuse there.


IMO shooting someone is much easier than restraining them and pushing them into a machine. So if someone did use it as a weapon, it would make more sense to just create guns or bombs and use those.
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Posted 6/25/10 , edited 6/25/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:




IMO shooting someone is much easier than restraining them and pushing them into a machine. So if someone did use it as a weapon, it would make more sense to just create guns or bombs and use those.


Granted but it would sure set back forensic science.


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Posted 6/25/10 , edited 6/25/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:
If it is mass produced, then anyone could start up their own businesses for whatever the price of the machine is. Then truly anyone has a shot at becoming a multi-millionaire.


If it is mass produced, that means that it will be cheap and widely available, so the majority of people will own it. If the majority of people own one, then there is no need for them to ever buy any product again, since they can make anything that is useless into something useful. So if most people aren't buying anything, then no one can make any profit through the exchange of goods. There would be too much supply and little demand, so nothing would have any sort of monetary value since anyone can make an large supply of it for themselves. No one would be a multi-millionaire because money would become useless.


If its not mass produced, then how much ? a billion dollars ? Then yea your right, A million ? Might be able to take out a bank loan for that but i dunno. if its 100,000$, then you could probably just take out a loan at a bank or something, unless you have utterly no businesses sense your pretty much guaranteed to make that loan back.


If it's not mass produced then it wouldn't be widely available because there would only be one or a few of them in the whole world. In that situation I doubt a person would be able to simply take out a loan and buy it, but if it were possible then the person would not even need to sell anything to make that money back, because they could just create something of equal value to pay it off, like create a bunch gold. So even if there are only a few in the world, it still could drastically decrease or even eliminate the value of goods, depending on what it's used for, especially since the person could just replicate the machine themselves and give them out to everyone.


And it could also be used as a weapon of some kind, it would be able to break down people and entire structures into nothing more than free atoms, so I see major potential for abuse there.


IMO shooting someone is much easier than restraining them and pushing them into a machine. So if someone did use it as a weapon, it would make more sense to just create guns or bombs and use those.



I really do not see that as a bad thing.. Once are rat race to survive has ended, that leaves us time to devote are selves to other things like sports, or pursuit of knowledge.
I see this as a opportunity to advance us, much of the wars over natural resources will end, might even eliminate humans need and thirst for war altogether.
I have never understood the concept of a economical system based around currency. It always seem primitive and illogical to me. Something that would in the end lead to violence or just aggressive behavior towards ones own kind. Witch goes against are species need to be part of a community.
It always seem logical to me to share resources as a community equally amongst each other, no person above any other, each job taken helps the community as a hole and so each job should be considered equal. Everyone shares everything. No need for Currency.

But that has been my opinion for over 15 years.
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Posted 6/25/10 , edited 6/25/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:

If it is mass produced, that means that it will be cheap and widely available, so the majority of people will own it. If the majority of people own one, then there is no need for them to ever buy any product again, since they can make anything that is useless into something useful. So if most people aren't buying anything, then no one can make any profit through the exchange of goods. There would be too much supply and little demand, so nothing would have any sort of monetary value since anyone can make an large supply of it for themselves. No one would be a multi-millionaire because money would become useless.


I don't think the average person has the knowledge to self produce something like an Nehalem or Sandy Bridge CPU or an IGBT or MOSFET all on their own. Integrated Circuits are highly complex devices with thousands of nanometer sized transistors on a block on silicon, the only people who know how to make those are companies who specialize in it. Like National Semi or Texas Instruments, or Intel for CPU's

If would be much simpler to create vast quantities of gold, as long as you knew the atomic structure of a gold atom, it would be simple, but mass producing gold would be horrible for the gold market as its value would drop like a rock through air.


If it's not mass produced then it wouldn't be widely available because there would only be one or a few of them in the whole world. In that situation I doubt a person would be able to simply take out a loan and buy it, but if it were possible then the person would not even need to sell anything to make that money back, because they could just create something of equal value to pay it off, like create a bunch gold. So even if there are only a few in the world, it still could drastically decrease or even eliminate the value of goods, depending on what it's used for, especially since the person could just replicate the machine themselves and give them out to everyone.


Again a machine like that would use highly complex custom integrated circuits, similar to how ICBM's and IRBM's use custom integrated circuits for preforming thousands of highly accurate double precision floating point positioning calculations per second. So I'm not to sure that the machine could simply replicate itself that simply.



IMO shooting someone is much easier than restraining them and pushing them into a machine. So if someone did use it as a weapon, it would make more sense to just create guns or bombs and use those.


What if the machine is capable of breaking down objects external to it ? For all we know this device could be the size of a laptop computer of even a pack of smokes.
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Posted 6/25/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


I really do not see that as a bad thing.. Once are rat race to survive has ended, that leaves us time to devote are selves to other things like sports, or pursuit of knowledge.
I see this as a opportunity to advance us, much of the wars over natural resources will end, might even eliminate humans need and thirst for war altogether.
I have never understood the concept of a economical system based around currency. It always seem primitive and illogical to me. Something that would in the end lead to violence or just aggressive behavior towards ones own kind. Witch goes against are species need to be part of a community.
It always seem logical to me to share resources as a community equally amongst each other, no person above any other, each job taken helps the community as a hole and so each job should be considered equal. Everyone shares everything. No need for Currency.

But that has been my opinion for over 15 years.


I already said that eliminating the monetary value of resources would be a good thing, or at least I think I did.



Allhailodin wrote:


Cuddlebuns wrote:

If it is mass produced, that means that it will be cheap and widely available, so the majority of people will own it. If the majority of people own one, then there is no need for them to ever buy any product again, since they can make anything that is useless into something useful. So if most people aren't buying anything, then no one can make any profit through the exchange of goods. There would be too much supply and little demand, so nothing would have any sort of monetary value since anyone can make an large supply of it for themselves. No one would be a multi-millionaire because money would become useless.


I don't think the average person has the knowledge to self produce something like an Nehalem or Sandy Bridge CPU or an IGBT or MOSFET all on their own. Integrated Circuits are highly complex devices with thousands of nanometer sized transistors on a block on silicon, the only people who know how to make those are companies who specialize in it. Like National Semi or Texas Instruments, or Intel for CPU's

If would be much simpler to create vast quantities of gold, as long as you knew the atomic structure of a gold atom, it would be simple, but mass producing gold would be horrible for the gold market as its value would drop like a rock through air.


If it's not mass produced then it wouldn't be widely available because there would only be one or a few of them in the whole world. In that situation I doubt a person would be able to simply take out a loan and buy it, but if it were possible then the person would not even need to sell anything to make that money back, because they could just create something of equal value to pay it off, like create a bunch gold. So even if there are only a few in the world, it still could drastically decrease or even eliminate the value of goods, depending on what it's used for, especially since the person could just replicate the machine themselves and give them out to everyone.


Again a machine like that would use highly complex custom integrated circuits, similar to how ICBM's and IRBM's use custom integrated circuits for preforming thousands of highly accurate double precision floating point positioning calculations per second. So I'm not to sure that the machine could simply replicate itself that simply.



IMO shooting someone is much easier than restraining them and pushing them into a machine. So if someone did use it as a weapon, it would make more sense to just create guns or bombs and use those.


What if the machine is capable of breaking down objects external to it ? For all we know this device could be the size of a laptop computer of even a pack of smokes.


I never considered how it would actually work since, like I said, I don't know enough about physics or technology to make an educated guess. I imagined it being something as simple as putting in one object, typing the name of the object that you want, then it works it's magic and you get whatever you typed in. If it were that simple, which is usually the goal with new technology, then anyone could use it.
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Posted 6/25/10 , edited 6/25/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:

I never considered how it would actually work since, like I said, I don't know enough about physics or technology to make an educated guess. I imagined it being something as simple as putting in one object, typing the name of the object that you want, then it works it's magic and you get whatever you typed in. If it were that simple, which is usually the goal with new technology, then anyone could use it.


into a Single Nehalem CPU (quad core) goes almost a billion(around 700 million) transistors only 45 nanometers across, thats smaller than the period at the end of this sentence, by many times. Its actually smaller than the wavelenght of light.

However If it were as simple as you say then yes I suppose that it would be true.

I thought of it as a device like the size of a laptop that would break down the matter that makes up the environment, like it would break down dirt and rocks into free base matter, then recombine them into whatever you wanted(Like pure gold or carbon for diamonds). If you gave it on object like an orange, the output is limited to the matter that makes up the orange.
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