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Posted 6/26/10

orangeflute wrote:

If there was no regulations, then the bigger companies will form Trust and Monopolies, controlling prices, &c. to the extent that small business will not be able to compete, and therefore, provide no other options but a single company (or group of companies in collaborations with each other). If not the the various laws that the government enacted, then we would be in this precarious situation.


That's no brainer stuff lol, Price fixing is illegal everywhere. It always has been.


Additionally, a bigger government is required, in a democracy, so as to be better able to protect its citizen, whether from discrimination and harm, or from enemies. America was worse off with little government, from the great corruptions of Grant to the famed Gilded age salaries, which is why, under several weak governments and letting the ignorant public play with the Stock Market, we had the great depression.


We are not a democracy. We are a republic. There's a difference. Big government is unamerican. Its communisitic in nature. It mean big corruption lol.

And your wrong that you need a big government to protect from discrimination lol, you just need somewhere around 4 or 5 well though out laws.

You don't need a big government to protect from enimies, what you need is a strong well funded military, big government = weak. bureaucracy gets in the way of the military. it hinders it just like everything else.

When you have a big government you wind up with a failed country like europe and greece. Where you have cronic unemployment, massive deficits, high taxes, useless programs that do nothing but waste monies. No wealth in the country at all. The government takes away money from hard working people through taxation and gives it to lazy fucks who do nothing but sit on their ass all day.

Yeah, all that stuff is the definition of a failed country.


Laws are not made to be practical, it is the bureaucracy the are in charged of implementing the laws and making them practical.


Laws are made to be practial, or at least they should be, but when you elect retards into office, like we do here in america. of course its not going to be.

bureaucracy is the reason the oil spill still hasn't gotten cleaned up lol. Because the bureaucracy prevented it from happening, it also prevented other countries ships and supplies from helping in the cleanup. bureaucracy is the very definition of fail.
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Posted 6/26/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:

Of course not all corporations and business owners are corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that the ones that are large and corrupt have too much power in this country.


I Suppose


It failed due to BP and/or one of the companies working under it (Transocean and Halliburton are the ones I know of) in this project not performing proper safety checks to ensure that the rig was in good enough condition to be used. BP has a history of doing that in order to pocket extra money, since hiring people to check it costs money, and if any problems are found it costs money to repair it. So that's why BP is receiving the blame.


Actually the government is receiving a lot of the blame for its bureaucracy getting in the way of the cleanup.


That's a pretty huge and ignorant generalization. If it were true, then don't you think that socialist countries would have an obesity rate as high as America's? And how do you think they get money to hand out if no one is working? They can only be socialist because they have high taxes, and if no one is making any money then no one is paying taxes, so it's impossible for them to be lazy and not work. Perhaps you should actually learn more about what life is like in socialist countries before you assume that they all just sit around waiting for welfare checks.


Did I ever say, that everyone in the entire county is unemployed ? No cause then obviously the country would implode and collapse. Much like the Plutonium-239 in a nuclear bomb. But they can have pretty high unemployment levels. For quite a while. But your right if truly nobody was working, then there would be no monie period. So obviously someone somewhere has a job.


Oil is also considered a hard asset as far as I know, which is why I referred to BP.


And just where do you keep a 55 gallon drum of raw oil ?


It seems like we still uphold most of those ideals, other than the no censorship thing. So I don't get why there is a big push to return to them when we really haven't strayed far from them. But of course the super conservatives who are always referring to the founding fathers think we're overtaxed and ruled by a tyrant (Obama) because they have been brainwashed into believing that all of their tax money is being handed to people who aren't working, when in reality most of it is funding our wars and keeping big businesses from failing.



The government isn't out of our daily lifes, its pretty much in our daily lives. and taxes are pretty damn high too. And a new tax has been proposed, an increase on capital gains tax from 18% -> 30%, that plain and simple is confiscate of wealth from business owners.

The forefathers believe in small smart government. As do I, America has no small government, there is nothing small or smart about the fedzilla. Or the statezilla's, or even the local governments.
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Posted 6/26/10
Well I don't really get it, but as I understand it, corps are bad not because they sell good / services for profit, but because they abuse the power that they have ?
Posted 6/27/10
Look at it this way, since the OP opposes big government with too much regulations, what's not to say that big corporation with too much power isn't just as bad? To say otherwise is in and of itself a contradiction.
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Posted 6/27/10

DomFortress wrote:

Look at it this way, since the OP opposes big government with too much regulations, what's not to say that big corporation with too much power isn't just as bad? To say otherwise is in and of itself a contradiction.


I said I agree giving too much power to any single entity is bad. That includes big government and corps.
Posted 6/27/10 , edited 6/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Look at it this way, since the OP opposes big government with too much regulations, what's not to say that big corporation with too much power isn't just as bad? To say otherwise is in and of itself a contradiction.


I said I agree giving too much power to any single entity is bad. That includes big government and corps.
Then it becomes a balancing act of controlling power with sufficient amont of regulation. However when big corporations don't want to control their own power, it's up to the government to democratically regulate big corporations via democracy. In other words, too much government business regulations was in direct relationship with big corporations' abuse of power.
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Posted 6/27/10 , edited 6/27/10

DomFortress wrote:

Then it becomes a balancing act of controlling power with sufficient among of regulation. However when big corporations don't want to control their own power, it's up to the government to democratically regulate big corporations via democracy. In other words, too much government business regulations was in direct relationship with a lack of big corporations' abuse of power.


Well too much government regulation of business hurts the little business owner. Puts them out of business cause they can't afford the regulations like the big guy can. (like making small trucking companies by all new trucks for example).
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Posted 6/27/10

Cuddlebuns wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:

well, that's life. he who has the money makes the rules.


That's no surprise, but the problem here is that few people know that corporations are the ones who are running the U.S and not the federal government. They manipulate the public into fighting amongst each other and blaming the government for everything so that they can keep making more money. So the situation is more difficult to change because so few people know who is actually causing the problem, and the ones who do know have a hard time spreading the message because the masses have been brainwashed into only listening to people who blindly agree with them no matter how true or false it may be, rather than listening to reason. It's a sick game that is all motivated by greed.


Money is power.
anyway, corporation has no other option but to maximize profits. It's kind of a normal process because if they will not use their money (they will just bank it and do not expand) government will tax them and taxes are almost 50%. So, if a corporation has a net gain of 100 million and they didn't use it, the government will take almost half of it. Since corporations doesn't want that to happen, the spend the money for new assets and properties to minimize the net gain thus minimizing tax.
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Posted 6/27/10 , edited 6/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

If there was no regulations, then the bigger companies will form Trust and Monopolies, controlling prices, &c. to the extent that small business will not be able to compete, and therefore, provide no other options but a single company (or group of companies in collaborations with each other). If not the the various laws that the government enacted, then we would be in this precarious situation.


That's no brainer stuff lol, Price fixing is illegal everywhere. It always has been.


Additionally, a bigger government is required, in a democracy, so as to be better able to protect its citizen, whether from discrimination and harm, or from enemies. America was worse off with little government, from the great corruptions of Grant to the famed Gilded age salaries, which is why, under several weak governments and letting the ignorant public play with the Stock Market, we had the great depression.


We are not a democracy. We are a republic. There's a difference. Big government is unamerican. Its communisitic in nature. It mean big corruption lol.

And your wrong that you need a big government to protect from discrimination lol, you just need somewhere around 4 or 5 well though out laws.

You don't need a big government to protect from enimies, what you need is a strong well funded military, big government = weak. bureaucracy gets in the way of the military. it hinders it just like everything else.

When you have a big government you wind up with a failed country like europe and greece. Where you have cronic unemployment, massive deficits, high taxes, useless programs that do nothing but waste monies. No wealth in the country at all. The government takes away money from hard working people through taxation and gives it to lazy fucks who do nothing but sit on their ass all day.

Yeah, all that stuff is the definition of a failed country.


Laws are not made to be practical, it is the bureaucracy the are in charged of implementing the laws and making them practical.


Laws are made to be practial, or at least they should be, but when you elect retards into office, like we do here in america. of course its not going to be.

bureaucracy is the reason the oil spill still hasn't gotten cleaned up lol. Because the bureaucracy prevented it from happening, it also prevented other countries ships and supplies from helping in the cleanup. bureaucracy is the very definition of fail.


Yes, but not in the 1800s, the beginning when businesses were allowed to do whatever they wished. Also, if we were to have a totally free market, then the bigger businesses will be able to drive the smaller business out, therefore, creating monopolisation. Bad for new business, and certainly bad for America.

We are a 'democratic republic' in that, like a republic, we are represented, but, as in a democracy we have a say in who represent us. Big government is indeed 'American', as big government is needed to protect its citizen, militarily or otherwise. For example, Tariffs, a big government is needed to implement these so that foreign goods will not swamp our markets and domestic products are, thus, unable to compete. Likewise, if we decrease the power of the federal government, we would be more reliant on State Government, and we all know how well that worked out during the chaos of the Articles of Confederation and the Confederacy of the United States. Likewise, Greece's problems are not cause by 'Big Government' but by financial mismanagement of its banks and its government. It does not serve to prove anything but that there exist incompetence everywhere, including the birthplace of democracy. Likewise, it is only the failure of Greece that is impeding the rest of Europe. In addition, the amount provided by the government in Welfare and the like are not sufficient to sustain a person.

Taxes are a necessary part of any government- without it, no one will pay for the salaries of Civil Servants and workers in the Public Sector (such as teachers, police officers, fire-fighters, &c.), maintain public property, or keep government running. Laws are not made to be practical, just able to appease enough representative to make it into law.
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Posted 6/27/10

orangeflute wrote:

We are a 'democratic republic' in that, like a republic, we are represented, but, as in a democracy we have a say in who represent us. Big government is indeed 'American', as big government is needed to protect its citizen, militarily or otherwise. For example, Tariffs, a big government is needed to implement these so that foreign goods will not swamp our markets and domestic products are, thus, unable to compete. Likewise, if we decrease the power of the federal government, we would be more reliant on State Government, and we all know how well that worked out during the chaos of the Articles of Confederation and the Confederacy of the United States. Likewise, Greece's problems are not cause by 'Big Government' but by financial mismanagement of its banks and its government. It does not serve to prove anything but that there exist incompetence everywhere, including the birthplace of democracy. Likewise, it is only the failure of Greece that is impeding the rest of Europe. In addition, the amount provided by the government in Welfare and the like are not sufficient to sustain a person.


Big government = big corruption = tranny. <--- This has been seen countless times thoughout history, are we not capble of learning from history ? Are we not capable of learning from our mistakes ? Does the english empire not ring any bells, that's a perfect example of big government.

Big government violates your rights, over taxes you, takes away your property from you. Taxes are already ridiculously high, and going to get higher lol. The government is already over taxing you. Capital gains taxes are at 18% and going to go to 30% that is pure socialist confiscation of wealth. Big government is evil. and bad for this country. If we wanted that we would just move to china. China has big government and look at how corrupt their government is.

Big government is not what the forefathers wanted, thus it is anti american. The forefathers wanted a small smart government that stayed the fuck out of the peoples lives, not a bigger stupid government that ruins the country. this big government you love so much is running the country right into the ground at light speed. America is fucking dead cause of our stupid government.

You don't need a big government for tarrifs, you just need a good foreign goods policy, seriously who the fuck told you all this stupid crap. its the exact opposite of common sense.


Taxes are a necessary part of any government- without it, no one will pay for the salaries of Civil Servants and workers in the Public Sector (such as teachers, police officers, fire-fighters, &c.), maintain public property, or keep government running. Laws are not made to be practical, just able to appease enough representative to make it into law.


Taxes are nessary, but not taxes at 50 fucking % of your income, something is dead fucking wrong when more than 15 - 20% of your income goes to taxes.

Big government = high taxes = no personal wealth.
Posted 6/27/10 , edited 6/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Then it becomes a balancing act of controlling power with sufficient amont of regulation. However when big corporations don't want to control their own power, it's up to the government to democratically regulate big corporations via democracy. In other words, too much government business regulations was in direct relationship with big corporations' abuse of power.


Well too much government regulation of business hurts the little business owner. Puts them out of business cause they can't afford the regulations like the big guy can. (like making small trucking companies by all new trucks for example).
Sorry, I had a long day and was half asleep when I wrote that. So I had to reedit the last sentence in order to make it right.

You should also consider just exactly how and who will benefit from a specific regulation, and why. Regardless of the reality of your example being true or not, a totalitarian regulation like that often have government substitute and incentive programs for small businesses. Also, while it's pointless for businesses to even own trucks if they're too small to make good use of them. When big corporations like auto companies can benefit from just such "regulation" in order for them to boost their sales, did you ever thought about that form of "bureaucracy" as a direct result of corporate lobbying? That's still a form of "republic" as in the "lobbyists" are the "corporate" representatives, but they bypassed the democratic electoral process and gone straight to the legislation, as they represent the dominating capitalists.

And the fact that while only 20% of the Americans own 85% of the US property, when only 1% of them own 42.7% of the US economy. It's in and of itself the irrefutable proof that just how bureaucratically totalitarian that the Republican -not Democrats- had become.
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Posted 6/27/10

DomFortress wrote:

And the fact that while only 20% of the Americans own 85% of the US property, when only 1% of them own 42.7% of the US economy. It's in and of itself the irrefutable proof that just how bureaucratically totalitarian that the Republican -not Democrats- had become.


Yeah, but its the democrats who push the whole big government, high taxes, high regulation, poor economy thing.

You know its ironic really. they say "Oh noes poverty is the worst thing ever". but their very own poor economic policies create it. Stupid fucks.

Democrats love government regulation of businesses, all businesses, not just large businesses, they also love high taxes, but what they can't seem to figure out is that those very same things lead to poverty and crime lol.

Businesses in dem states with high taxes and regulation, leave, just up and leave, to get away from it, as the high taxes kills their profit and the regulation strangles them, well that kills jobs, no businesses = no jobs = no monies = poverty = people look for other means to make that monies, like selling drugs and stealing cars and stuff = crime. I read a study on it once.

If the dems wanted to kill poverty, they should support deregulation of small businesses and lower taxes on small businesses, as small businesses = jobs, and with more incentive to start one = more people start one = more jobs = more monies for working people = less poverty.
Posted 6/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And the fact that while only 20% of the Americans own 85% of the US property, when only 1% of them own 42.7% of the US economy. It's in and of itself the irrefutable proof that just how bureaucratically totalitarian that the Republican -not Democrats- had become.


Yeah, but its the democrats who push the whole big government, high taxes, high regulation, poor economy thing.

You know its ironic really. they say "Oh noes poverty is the worst thing ever". but their very own poor economic policies create it. Stupid fucks.

Democrats love government regulation of businesses, all businesses, not just large businesses, they also love high taxes, but what they can't seem to figure out is that those very same things lead to poverty and crime lol.

Businesses in dem states with high taxes and regulation, leave, just up and leave, to get away from it, as the high taxes kills their profit and the regulation strangles them, well that kills jobs, no businesses = no jobs = no monies = poverty = people look for other means to make that monies, like selling drugs and stealing cars and stuff = crime.
I read a study on it once.

If the dems wanted to kill poverty, they should support deregulation of small businesses and lower taxes on small businesses, as small businesses = jobs, and with more incentive to start one = more people start one = more jobs = more monies for working people = less poverty.
And where did you think those government business substitute and incentive came from? That's right, taxes.

Therefore it's you who's being irrational and unrealistic, when small businesses are loyal to their own local communities. It's thereby those big corporations who are staying around while using government taxations to boost their own profit via government business substitute and incentive. And who's not to say that the Democrats aren't pushing regulations to help small businesses right now? While the Republicans are only complaining about big government as of now because the Democrats are in power, but they never said anything of that sort when they themselves were the ones in power.
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Posted 6/27/10
It's funny how this always get's framed in terms of american domestic politics. There's other paradigms than 2-value system fed up to american voters as 'choice'.
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Posted 6/27/10 , edited 6/27/10

DomFortress wrote:

And where did you think those government business substitute and incentive came from? That's right, taxes.

Therefore it's you who's being irrational and unrealistic, when small businesses are loyal to their own local communities. It's thereby those big corporations who are staying around while using government taxations to boost their own profit via government business substitute and incentive. And who's not to say that the Democrats aren't pushing regulations to help small businesses right now? While the Republicans are only complaining about big government as of now because the Democrats are in power, but they never said anything of that sort when they themselves were the ones in power.


You have to try to understand it from the perspective of the businessman (owner) hes in it to make money. If taxes are high, he makes less money. So he loses motivation to stay in the area with high taxes. Thus lots of them leave. Which kills jobs in said area.

You don't incentivise businesses with government incentivies like programs and stuff lol. You incentivise(bah can't spell it) businesses with tax cuts and deregulation Businesses just want to be left alone to operate in peace. When you cut taxes and regulation of small businesses you get a job explosion as more people create businesses and thus those people employ other people. That's how you create economic growth, when you do the opposite, increase taxes and regulation, you kill jobs and put people out of businesses, it harms the economy.

Taxes = bad for small businesses. It kills their profit.
Regulations = bad for small businesses too, as it kills amount the ways they have to make that profit.

Less taxes are always a good thing lol. High taxes are never a good thing.
Same goes for government, less is better, more is worse.
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