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Defining the Boundaries of Racism
Posted 7/3/10

excalion wrote:


LosingOrbit wrote:

To me they all just sound like excuses to be racist.


That might very well be the case. However it might also be the case that you've been so immersed in anti-racism propaganda since an early age that you no longer think about its implications but go with a gut feeling that it's right. Of course in doing so you'll also automatically denounce anything and everything that does not mesh well with your idealism.

I'm not some crazy shotgun toting redneck going around shooting random non-Caucasians, I'm trying to explore the facets of racism itself and perhaps even get to the bottom of our disillusions. If you have something interesting to say, you're welcome to post. Otherwise please refrain from posting one liners, as last I checked, that's against the rules of extended discussion.


Quoting the forum rules on me now, hm? \

Tell me, have you've ever been the victim of racial prejudice? If you have, than you realize how baffling and hurtful it must feel. To me, there are no justifications. By you avoiding these people because of said stereotypes you're only stifling your own growth, which in turn promotes ignorance.

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Posted 7/3/10
I do understand, American businesspersons do not have a clue on how to do business over in Asia. In fact or present made a serious mistake in not showing up to the Asian countries when he said he would. If am not mistaking this consider very rude and will have a backlash latter on. Chris a friend of mine Son represent a corporation over sea mostly Asia the protocol Asian have American do not have a clue. Chirr is first generation Chinese and cannot speak a word of it. The son speaks several langue and many dialects of the langue
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Posted 7/3/10

excalion wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:



I appreciate the tone you're taking here, maybe extended discussion section has changed since I've last been around these parts. Anyhow, pleasantries aside I have to ask you this. If I've been in the house of 6 different Mexicans, and my immediate reaction is I wanted to puke, how do I logically come to the conclusion that I would want to enter yet another Mexican residence if I had a choice not to? Like I've said before, I'm unwilling to give the benefit of the doubt if I can help it, but that doesn't mean I'm completely unwilling to give it under and and all circumstances. I also stated that I'm not unwilling to accept exceptions to the norm.

Also considering I did explicitly state that a lot of stereotypes are lies and slander, but some are true, I've already avoided the slippery slope fallacy by admitting middle ground. Those who are arguing just because some stereotypes are false then all stereotypes are false, are the ones actually committing that fallacyy.

(( Emphasis Mine))

Bold Well, I'd try to find out what the spice or favourite food is that is making that stink. Because you're likely to encounter it in more places than mexican residences. Also it may be a specific to the mexicans in your region (who may or may not have come from the same geographic or social subgrouping in Mexico). Someone from another region might not engage this response. I have a friend who really does get nausous in the presence of parmesan cheese. He doesn't evidence a hate on for Italians. but he is quick to excuse himself in the presence of Italian food (and/or ask close friends not to order it, if they sit next to him in a restaurant).

On the other hand. socially, no one is forcing you to socialize with your mexican friends so if it bugs you that much, meet with them outdoors. Unless of course it's your job to enter people's homes and be polite. then you have to treat mexican homes the same as any other home you enter. If it's a job condition.... well... I wade through piss and shit and blood and vomit for living. So my response would be "Shut up and Soldier."

Green For me it's not weather stereotypes are true or false X or Y percent of the time. It's weather or not their utility outweighs the harm in using them. I think race and racialism are outmoded concepts with so much baggage that they represent traps. I don't think the new buzz word of ethnicity is much better. To be fair, it's where I come form. there was A time I could have been described as a male feminist, A time when I would meticoulously describe someone's skin tone and an physical features rather than admit to the short hand of a racial phenotype. Constantly working as a male in a female dominated work environment has cured me of my feminism, similarly my work as a security guard described earlier has made me more willing to concede at least to using racial terms in descriptive short hand. and more impatient with those who cheapen real racial injustice by playing the race card at every turn.

I think letting a stereotype do your thinking for you is lazy thinking. Nor do I think it's mere sophistry to redefine the problem. If you avoid poor violent neighbourhoods because they're poor and violent. That's just prudence. bringing race in to it just opens up unecessary complications.




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Posted 7/3/10

LosingOrbit wrote:



Of course I've been on the receiving end of racial prejudice, I'm Asian damn it. However I've only been affected by the people who use it to intentionally disrupt my life. I've never had a problem with people choosing to distance themselves away from me due to a certain stereotype because that's their choice. If I force someone to associate themselves with me even though there is something that upsets them about being in my presence, that would be pulling the race card. I find that to be disgusting, and that's exactly why I find the oversensitive reactions to racism to be utterly stupid. papagolfwhiskey already hit the nail on the head by saying people are using and abusing the race card, and taking away from the people who are actually suffering because of it. So I wanted to make a distinction between which stereotypes are justified, so people can't go about pulling the race card on anything and everything they want to.
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Posted 7/3/10 , edited 7/3/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:



Yes, I understand the faults of my reasoning. I'm not taking the time to explorer the reasons, besides race, of why the things some races apparently do makes me feel uncomfortable. However on a realistic note, being meticulously detailed about passing acquaintances just isn't very efficient nor very plausible. Of course, it's not the ideal solution to the problem at hand, but given the amount of people we have to deal with on a daily basis, it is outright impossible to figure out every little thing about everyone. I wouldn't think twice in giving my full effort to understand a close friend, whatever race he may be, but if it's a stranger, I'm going to have to go with past experiences and side with whatever categorical classification I have on them based on any and all observable traits; race being one of those traits.

Edit: Which ties back to what I've defined as a "norm" and my acceptance of exceptions to that norm, on a case by case basis. Once enough of these exceptions have been made, perhaps a new norm will emerge and that will be the new stereotype.
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Posted 7/3/10

excalion wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:



Yes, I understand the faults of my reasoning. I'm not taking the time to explorer the reasons, besides race, of why the things some races apparently do makes me feel uncomfortable. However on a realistic note, being meticulously detailed about passing acquaintances just isn't very efficient nor very plausible. Of course, it's not the ideal solution to the problem at hand, but given the amount of people we have to deal with on a daily basis, it is outright impossible to figure out every little thing about everyone. I wouldn't think twice in giving my full effort to understand a close friend, whatever race he may be, but if it's a stranger, I'm going to have to go with past experiences and side with whatever categorical classification I have on them based on any and all observable traits; race being one of those traits.

Edit: Which ties back to what I've defined as a "norm" and my acceptance of exceptions to that norm, on a case by case basis. Once enough of these exceptions have been made, perhaps a new norm will emerge and that will be the new stereotype.


So basically what you're saying now is that

It's okay to judge a book by the cover, if you're just cruising by that isle in the library anyway.

I'm still disclined to believe the efficiency in avoiding inconvienance and discomfort outweighs the loss of experiential richness. Still to be fair we all make generalisations. The assumption that 'Gays know how to PARTY" has me very curious about happenings down town this week being PRIDE week and this year being the Year my city hosts world PRIDE. Likewise last week I wanted to AVOID hippies, black bloc, and the cops beating on both. (G20.. what waste of taxpayers money)


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Posted 7/13/10 , edited 7/13/10

excalion wrote:

Yes, I understand the faults of my reasoning. I'm not taking the time to explorer the reasons, besides race, of why the things some races apparently do makes me feel uncomfortable. However on a realistic note, being meticulously detailed about passing acquaintances just isn't very efficient nor very plausible. Of course, it's not the ideal solution to the problem at hand, but given the amount of people we have to deal with on a daily basis, it is outright impossible to figure out every little thing about everyone. I wouldn't think twice in giving my full effort to understand a close friend, whatever race he may be, but if it's a stranger, I'm going to have to go with past experiences and side with whatever categorical classification I have on them based on any and all observable traits; race being one of those traits.

Edit: Which ties back to what I've defined as a "norm" and my acceptance of exceptions to that norm, on a case by case basis. Once enough of these exceptions have been made, perhaps a new norm will emerge and that will be the new stereotype.


The bolded part is one big excuse to me, and is lazy thinking at best.

Just because you can't figure everything about everyone doesn't begin to state that "Well, since they're black, they may be louder than average or may be more prone to criminality. If they're (insert race here), they likely behave (insert stereotype here), because I can't actually be assed to get to know them or keep an open mind about them."

The problem with racists is that they often benefit from a system of privilege and until their own privilege is threatened, they remain generally impartial (or even supportive) of racism. It's like a myth of bootstraps. Know why black neighborhoods tend to be riddled with more crime? Because the same opportunities are often not extended to them that they are towards Whites and Asians. Before you begin touting Affirmative Action to me, keep in mind that Affirmative Action usually only applies to entry level positions, and the job promotion rate for Blacks has pretty much stagnated, if not dropped off, since the 1990s. Also, poor neighborhoods, regardless of race, are more prone to criminal activity than middle-class/richer neighborhoods. Poor white neighborhoods are often riddled with methamphetamine issues and drug dealing, as well as the occasional issue of violence. Poor Asian neighborhoods contain gang activity. There are different reasons for stereotypes, all of them rooted in contempt and fear, rarely if ever in truth. Know the reason why people give credence to stereotypes? Because people like to feel RIGHT. We call it confirmation bias. They're going to feel better with someone that fits the stereotype rather than someone who doesn't, because it doesn't require them to reevaluate their own thinking.

I don't assume anything about someone else's character, because different people behave differently, have different traits, have different interests, etc. Last I recall, race was not culture and it is not a determinant for different traits. Class plays way more of a part in how a person may behave or feel more than race does. Everyone has a different story. Who is any one person to try to discount that person's story because they don't fit into the convenient little box that you've set up for them.
Posted 7/13/10 , edited 7/13/10

angrierchick wrote:



The bolded part is one big excuse to me, and is lazy thinking at best.

Just because you can't figure everything about everyone doesn't begin to state that "Well, since they're black, they may be louder than average or may be more prone to criminality."

The problem with racists is that they often benefit from a system of privilege and until their own privilege is threatened, they remain generally impartial (or even supportive) of racism. It's like a myth of bootstraps. Know why black neighborhoods tend to be riddled with more crime? Because the same opportunities are often not extended to them that they are towards Whites and Asians. Before you begin touting Affirmative Action to me, keep in mind that Affirmative Action usually only applies to entry level positions, and the job promotion rate for Blacks has pretty much stagnated, if not dropped off, since the 1990s. Also, poor neighborhoods, regardless of race, are more prone to criminal activity than middle-class/richer neighborhoods. Poor white neighborhoods are often riddled with methamphetamine issues and drug dealing, as well as the occasional issue of violence. Poor Asian neighborhoods contain gang activity. There are different reasons for stereotypes, all of them rooted in contempt and fear, rarely if ever in truth. Know the reason why people give credence to stereotypes? Because people like to feel RIGHT. We call it confirmation bias. They're going to feel better with someone that fits the stereotype rather than someone who doesn't, because it doesn't require them to reevaluate their own thinking.

I don't assume anything about someone else's character, because different people behave differently, have different traits, have different interests, etc. Last I recall, race was not culture and it is not a determinant for different traits. Class plays way more of a part in how a person may behave or feel more than race does. Everyone has a different story. Who is any one person to try to discount that person's story because they don't fit into the convenient little box that you've set up for them.
In other words, those who think that they're entitled of them stereotyping others weren't even thinking critically, but rather they're boasting with an attitude of superiority complex. IMHO.

OTOH the social class differences are even more prevalent, when we apply an individual's social status set and subsequently their social roles, within the sociological context of symbolic interaction paradigm. While biologically speaking race doesn't even exist among the human specie, when there's only differences due to genetic traits(citation).
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Posted 7/13/10
Social Class boundaries are considerably more different. Social classes do have their own cultures, often created out of necessity or access to certain goods. Rap and Hip-Hop came from poorer classes (as Hip-Hop was often created as a means of expression in poorer communities and chronicled the experiences of those having to live in such communities), whereas things like cotillions and such are often more enjoyed by members of the upper-class due to costs associated with it. (Tickets, clothing for the young women, social connections, etc.)

Race and social class are something that are intersecting, but race does not mean that one is going to be limited to a certain social class.
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Posted 7/14/10

angrierchick wrote:

Social Class boundaries are considerably more different. Social classes do have their own cultures, often created out of necessity or access to certain goods. Rap and Hip-Hop came from poorer classes (as Hip-Hop was often created as a means of expression in poorer communities and chronicled the experiences of those having to live in such communities), whereas things like cotillions and such are often more enjoyed by members of the upper-class due to costs associated with it. (Tickets, clothing for the young women, social connections, etc.)

Race and social class are something that are intersecting, but race does not mean that one is going to be limited to a certain social class.


Point. Social Class (and other socio-cultural in groupings) are much harder to get past. they do have their racist and sexist elements though. the 'old boys network' of rich white males helps perpetuate harmful restrictions that make racism and sexism hurt.

It's hard to be a Woman in the military. It can be ... irritating to be a male nurse. Many clubs, workplaces, schools have their elitist cliques that limit you if they can for not being a member, and presume to sit in judgment above you should the issue of membership come up.


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Posted 7/15/10
The most hateful group of people I have ever met is blacks. Hell they do not like black from other parts of the world. I have never heard of this description until Atlanta. High yellow, Red bone, a blue black, light skink, dark skin and so forth, the resentment in these groups about other types is so wild it hard to believe. And the other races Hispanic Asian, and on get killed they say they deserved it the ones running small stores.
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Posted 7/15/10
an example of racism is using a racial slur to describe those who get entertainment from Japan
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Posted 7/15/10

tarakelly wrote:

The most hateful group of people I have ever met is blacks. Hell they do not like black from other parts of the world. I have never heard of this description until Atlanta. High yellow, Red bone, a blue black, light skink, dark skin and so forth, the resentment in these groups about other types is so wild it hard to believe. And the other races Hispanic Asian, and on get killed they say they deserved it the ones running small stores.


So you know, those evil black people, clearly it makes it okay to discriminate against them, right?
Posted 7/15/10

angrierchick wrote:

So you know, those evil black people, clearly it makes it okay to discriminate against them, right?


Does it? Maybe someone's trying to read between the lines a bit too much for their own good.
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Posted 7/15/10

shinto-male wrote:

an example of racism is using a racial slur to describe those who get entertainment from Japan


Japan-imation?


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