Leviticus
Posted 7/11/10
This is the book of laws, rituals, and God's covenant with Israel.

It is known as "the word of Yahweh."

From here, we get the laws concerning same-sex relationships in Judaism and Christianity.

I felt that would be an interesting topic to discuss. I hope we can cut back on the trolling and be a bit more serious, unlike all the past times we've had a thread about religion here in Extended Discussion.



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Posted 7/11/10
Are we supposed to discuss the Law w/o reference to the Talmud? Just wondering.
Posted 7/11/10 , edited 7/11/10
For starter, here's the full context of the law regarding same sex relationship within Leviticus:

Leviticus 18:22

Overview:

This verse is one of the famous six "clobber" passages from the Bible that is often used to condemn same-sex sexual activity.

In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Although the verse appears to most readers to apply only to sexual behavior between two males, at least two Bible translations appear to mistranslate the verse in order to widen its scope to include lesbian sexual activity:
* Living Bible: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"
* New Living Translation: "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
My own personal take on this verse is that someone dislike(abomination) what he saw with homosexual but couldn't justify as to how and why, so he BS about it.
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Posted 7/11/10

DomFortress wrote:
My own personal take on this verse is that someone dislike(abomination) what he saw with homosexual but couldn't justify as to how and why, so he BS about it.


You could be right, but I thought it had to do w/ pagan rituals practiced at the time being written about in the establishing of the law for the Hebrew people. among other possible reasons for this particular law the acts of homosexuality would be seen as an act of worship to a pagan god, which flies in the face of the 1st commandment-- oh, well guess we don't know for sure any which way!
Posted 7/11/10 , edited 7/11/10

farmbird wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
My own personal take on this verse is that someone dislike(abomination) what he saw with homosexual but couldn't justify as to how and why, so he BS about it.


You could be right, but I thought it had to do w/ pagan rituals practiced at the time being written about in the establishing of the law for the Hebrew people. among other possible reasons for this particular law the acts of homosexuality would be seen as an act of worship to a pagan god, which flies in the face of the 1st commandment-- oh, well guess we don't know for sure any which way!
Those are possible explanations, however that would have serious undertone of both religious and political implementation. In other words this can be seen as a political oppression against the homosexual individuals' nature of existence, using religious doctrine as a form of justification.
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Posted 7/11/10

DomFortress wrote:]Those are possible explanations, however that would have serious undertone of both religious and political implementation. In other words this can be seen as a political oppression against the homosexual individuals' nature of existence, using religious doctrine as a form of justification.


Unfortunately, no details are given specifically whether homosexually as whole, or just the ritual acts of pagan worship involving same sex interaction are forbidden. Again, the actual laws as written in the Bible translations are really vague on details beyond the main dictate. Does this mean there is no room for deviation in the law or is the law written sparingly to allow for wiggle room? Herein lies the continuous arguments, 'tween the two schools of thought........
Posted 7/11/10

farmbird wrote:


DomFortress wrote:Those are possible explanations, however that would have serious undertone of both religious and political implementation. In other words this can be seen as a political oppression against the homosexual individuals' nature of existence, using religious doctrine as a form of justification.


Unfortunately, no details are given specifically whether homosexually as whole, or just the ritual acts of pagan worship involving same sex interaction are forbidden. Again, the actual laws as written in the Bible translations are really vague on details beyond the main dictate. Does this mean there is no room for deviation in the law or is the law written sparingly to allow for wiggle room? Herein lies the continuous arguments, 'tween the two schools of thought........
Even though there's no official documentation of the life of homosexual individuals in that time period, we do know that they exist even back then because of the existence of this law. And since our literature is a written record of our human history, we can see for ourselves just how well this particular law had played out within the overall view of organized religions on homosexuality.
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Posted 7/11/10

DomFortress wrote:
Even though there's no official documentation of the life of homosexual individuals in that time period, we do know that they exist even back then because of the existence of this law. And since our literature is a written record of our human history, we can see for ourselves just how well this particular law had played out within the overall view of organized religions on homosexuality.

more's the pity-- the frail & imperfect human mind! I normally might use this subject (specifically-- errors in interpretation or misunderstandings in the word of God) as argument for the need of forgiveness & salvation, but I know I'm barking up the wrong tree. Even within the confines of the Christian faith, the imperfect body still walking earth doesn't get perfected 'till reaching the afterlife.
I look forward to someday hearing God's intended meanings in His Word, one area specifically is homosexuality, since I've changed my own mind about during the years of my Christian walk. I now feel it is not my place to judge others- judgement is the Lord's. If I am to walk as Jesus Christ did, I find I get along with the world better offering love & kindness, & along the way I've met some wonderful people, some of whom are gay.
Posted 7/11/10 , edited 7/11/10

farmbird wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Even though there's no official documentation of the life of homosexual individuals in that time period, we do know that they exist even back then because of the existence of this law. And since our literature is a written record of our human history, we can see for ourselves just how well this particular law had played out within the overall view of organized religions on homosexuality.

more's the pity-- the frail & imperfect human mind! I normally might use this subject (specifically-- errors in interpretation or misunderstandings in the word of God) as argument for the need of forgiveness & salvation, but I know I'm barking up the wrong tree. Even within the confines of the Christian faith, the imperfect body still walking earth doesn't get perfected 'till reaching the afterlife.
I look forward to someday hearing God's intended meanings in His Word, one area specifically is homosexuality, since I've changed my own mind about during the years of my Christian walk. I now feel it is not my place to judge others- judgement is the Lord's. If I am to walk as Jesus Christ did, I find I get along with the world better offering love & kindness, & along the way I've met some wonderful people, some of whom are gay.
Likewise, for I too have my own take on the nature of homosexuals after my real life encounter with them.
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Posted 7/11/10

DomFortress wrote:


farmbird wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
My own personal take on this verse is that someone dislike(abomination) what he saw with homosexual but couldn't justify as to how and why, so he BS about it.


You could be right, but I thought it had to do w/ pagan rituals practiced at the time being written about in the establishing of the law for the Hebrew people. among other possible reasons for this particular law the acts of homosexuality would be seen as an act of worship to a pagan god, which flies in the face of the 1st commandment-- oh, well guess we don't know for sure any which way!
Those are possible explanations, however that would have serious undertone of both religious and political implementation. In other words this can be seen as a political oppression against the homosexual individuals' nature of existence, using religious doctrine as a form of justification.


I think that the law "against homosexuality" (damn the people who authorize english translations of anything) has the same roots as the one which condemns "spilling your seed without reason". Since we are talking about small desert tribes some 20000 to 15000 thousand years BC, the main problem is procreation, which means without healthy man/woman relationships, the tribe (up to 50 people, maybe less,.. where would these nomads find enough food for more) would die out. In the same light, when one of the tribe leaders from old testament (cant remember which one) finds out his wife is barren, his God finds excuse for him to sleep with his wifes maid, to have a son. (david, or the guy who led them out of egypt,... I dont remember really). And the God told that to his wife in her dreams. So it was OK to sleep with maid as long as the tribe goes on. And wife agrees, of course.
Posted 7/11/10 , edited 7/11/10

blancer wrote:



I think that the law "against homosexuality" (damn the people who authorize english translations of anything) has the same roots as the one which condemns "spilling your seed without reason". Since we are talking about small desert tribes some 20000 to 15000 thousand years BC, the main problem is procreation, which means without healthy man/woman relationships, the tribe (up to 50 people, maybe less,.. where would these nomads find enough food for more) would die out.

In the same light, when one of the tribe leaders from old testament (cant remember which one) finds out his wife is barren, his God finds excuse for him to sleep with his wifes maid, to have a son. (david, or the guy who led them out of egypt,... I dont remember really). And the God told that to his wife in her dreams. So it was OK to sleep with maid as long as the tribe goes on. And wife agrees, of course.
But that would be really stupid and ignorant in today's human society, when human population is 6.8 billions and rising, yet couldn't provide sustainable food source for at least 2 billions.

In other words, those organized religions who are against homosexuality, are really worrying about a "no issue".
Posted 8/14/10
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