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the facts "truth" about how to read the Qur'an and how it is different than other religious text.
maffoo 
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Posted 8/3/10

uae89 wrote:

and if u say that the islam did ask to kill and etc and would really love to see where did u read or hear that from


Surah 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Allah is forgiving, merciful"

(From a translation of the Qur'an published by the Islamic Dawah Centre International.)

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Posted 8/3/10

maffoo wrote:


uae89 wrote:

and if u say that the islam did ask to kill and etc and would really love to see where did u read or hear that from


Surah 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Allah is forgiving, merciful"

(From a translation of the Qur'an published by the Islamic Dawah Centre International.)




would u mind to give the name of that Surah ? i can't find that verse with 9:5:
maffoo 
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Posted 8/4/10

uae89 wrote:


maffoo wrote:


uae89 wrote:

and if u say that the islam did ask to kill and etc and would really love to see where did u read or hear that from


Surah 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Allah is forgiving, merciful"

(From a translation of the Qur'an published by the Islamic Dawah Centre International.)




would u mind to give the name of that Surah ? i can't find that verse with 9:5:


Surah 9: At-Taubah
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Posted 8/4/10

maffoo wrote:


uae89 wrote:


maffoo wrote:


uae89 wrote:

and if u say that the islam did ask to kill and etc and would really love to see where did u read or hear that from


Surah 9:5:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever you find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Allah is forgiving, merciful"

(From a translation of the Qur'an published by the Islamic Dawah Centre International.)




would u mind to give the name of that Surah ? i can't find that verse with 9:5:


Surah 9: At-Taubah


um well i was searching for the verse u posted and i couldn't find it

look in Al Taubah Surah there is 75 verse which one u mean ?
maffoo 
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Posted 8/5/10


In the copy I have, it is Surah 9 (At Taubah), verse 5.

It may be that you are looking at either a different translation, or a copy in the original Arabic? The wording in my copy may be different to yours; the translation is by Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall if it helps, I have seen the same verse translated in slightly different ways, but giving the same overall effect of "kill the idolators/infidels unless they convert." I assume that it is a reasonable translation as it is distributed by a Muslim organisation as part of their efforts to spread Islam.

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Posted 8/5/10

maffoo wrote:



In the copy I have, it is Surah 9 (At Taubah), verse 5.

It may be that you are looking at either a different translation, or a copy in the original Arabic? The wording in my copy may be different to yours; the translation is by Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall if it helps, I have seen the same verse translated in slightly different ways, but giving the same overall effect of "kill the idolators/infidels unless they convert." I assume that it is a reasonable translation as it is distributed by a Muslim organisation as part of their efforts to spread Islam.




oh yes i found it now

and now im sure that u r totally dont know the quran ^^

bcuz this verse talks about the Moushrkeen (ppl who warship something else than the one god) who lived between the Muslims b4 in Makkah who had Treaty with the Muslims and they break it so the verse fight them and not just wait from them to attcak but also to go to them

ur mistake was that u didnt read the previous u just started reading from verse 5 its like two ppl talking and u came in the middle of their talk and from what u heard u got the wrong about what they r talking about bcuz u didnt listen what they said b4

well u better start learning more about how quran works IF u want to say that the quran is bad thing i mean know it more and esplly read from the beginning of the Suran not the middle

so that verse wasnt bad but good one :D

hmmm any other verses too ?

hey yay i love this =D i learn more and more about islam with u guys :3
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Posted 8/5/10 , edited 8/5/10
You know guys I could probably go to the christian bible and yank out random passages out of context that would make christianity sound bloodthirsty and malicious.

As for someone's earlier statement that a simple pennance absolves one from lying... well Don't the catholics preach that you can be forgiven by god if you just confess your sins. I -could- argue by the logic given above against Islam that similarly: In Catholicism you can commit all sorts of heinous crimes, and get forgiveness through a few "hail mary's", worse the priest is forbidden to tell the authorities what you've told HIM (women can't be priests in one of the biggest christian faiths in our oh so egaltarian society).

As a trolling post goes Dark Phoenix this is one of your more clumsy ones.
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Posted 8/5/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

You know guys I could probably go to the christian bible and yank out random passages out of context that would make christianity sound bloodthirsty and malicious.

As for someone's earlier statement that a simple pennance absolves one from lying... well Don't the catholics preach that you can be forgiven by god if you just confess your sins. I -could- argue by the logic given above against Islam that similarly: In Catholicism you can commit all sorts of heinous crimes, and get forgiveness through a few "hail mary's", worse the priest is forbidden to tell the authorities what you've told HIM (women can't be priests in one of the biggest christian faiths in our oh so egaltarian society).

As a trolling post goes Dark Phoenix this is one of your more clumsy ones.


Is this the 3rd attack targeting me. Yet I have not made a remark in a wile.. Wow.. someone lives in the past..

And to think how many others have placed mountains of evidence backing my side yet you do not attack them for it..

You must really really like me hmm.
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Posted 8/5/10 , edited 8/5/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

You know guys I could probably go to the christian bible and yank out random passages out of context that would make christianity sound bloodthirsty and malicious.

As for someone's earlier statement that a simple pennance absolves one from lying... well Don't the catholics preach that you can be forgiven by god if you just confess your sins. I -could- argue by the logic given above against Islam that similarly: In Catholicism you can commit all sorts of heinous crimes, and get forgiveness through a few "hail mary's", worse the priest is forbidden to tell the authorities what you've told HIM (women can't be priests in one of the biggest christian faiths in our oh so egaltarian society).

As a trolling post goes Dark Phoenix this is one of your more clumsy ones.


Is this the 3rd attack targeting me. Yet I have not made a remark in a wile.. Wow.. someone lives in the past..

And to think how many others have placed mountains of evidence backing my side yet you do not attack them for it..

You must really really like me hmm.


You're the OP, You authored the provocative title. That's what I consider clumsy about the thread. And that's why the last sentence was directed at you. The earlier paragraph was directed at everyone who followed your lead and took random quotes out of the Islamic Holy Book to try and prove your point.

(edit:) Also I don't have feelings for you one way or another, you're just a random online stranger to me. But I do take issue with some of your assertions, at least one of your positions and the tone and word choice of your strategies. Each time I take issue. I call you on it. that's all it is.

You initiate a large proportion of provocative posts where you take interesting but not always agreeable positions and defend them with intemporate language. Why are you surprised when you get a similarly higher proportion of criticism?




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Posted 8/8/10


hi 5 my friend hi 5 indeed.
------------bar of separation-----------
also i dont understand why people have to act rabid when they are discussing religon i dont understand how you do it folks
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Posted 8/8/10 , edited 8/8/10

moratorium wrote:



hi 5 my friend hi 5 indeed.
------------bar of separation-----------
also i dont understand why people have to act rabid when they are discussing religon i dont understand how you do it folks



So they attack them for not having the same religion / Makes it better.

Because some how not having the same religion means that you have to attack them, because if you don't they will attack you?

That explanation is just as illogical and irrational. That like telling you to KILL anyone who does not worship your god, because there going to KILL you.
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Posted 8/8/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


moratorium wrote:



hi 5 my friend hi 5 indeed.
------------bar of separation-----------
also i dont understand why people have to act rabid when they are discussing religon i dont understand how you do it folks



So they attack them for not having the same religion / Makes it better.

Because some how not having the same religion means that you have to attack them, because if you don't they will attack you?

That explanation is just as illogical and irrational. That like telling you to KILL anyone who does not worship your god, because there going to KILL you.


ppl in general can be aholes thats just how it is

religious and non it honestly is both of them

i think its all about self esteem and crap like that
like kids at a play ground making fun of another kid because its of benefit to them
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Posted 8/14/10

explain to me why I should trust you wen right in your holy scriptures it tells you to lie to, manipulate, and kill non-believers?


ok so u r asking :
y does the quran tell us to lie, trick the non believers?
y does the quran tell us to kill them wherever we find them ?



quite reasonable questions above u have. well let us try to find out the answer to these questions. plz read carefully

first of all i would like to say is that after september (if allah wills) i will be in my last year in gaining my degree on islamic theology.so the information i will be giving is very authentic and reliable. just so u know im not making things up.
i will be using some arabic terms so if u really have studied the quran you should have came across them.

so let us start form back from the beggining. if you already know this then i shall be recaping so u understand better.
right... after a few hundreds of years after the prophet (pbuh) had left us with the magnificant quran and hadith. later on in the yrs the ppl of that tym ( also know as the awaaam ) started not understanding what orders they should obey in what situations. obvioulsy because arabic is quite a tricky language to understand and u need great ppl hu have the knowlegde of arabic to help.

so then the great scholars of that tym started looking into depth of the quran and hadith. these great ppl are also known as the mujtahideen and the muhaditheen. they were excellent ppl that had the knowlegde of arabic so they helped.
so soon afterwards these mujtahideen after getting to recognize each and every letter and what each ayat is tryin to say, they started giving orders out from the quran and hadith itself in which would match the lifestyles of that tym, and soon there were fatwas from many great scholars.

so now what happened was that there were many shcolars hu had helped, that each of them gave their own opinion of what they had researched. so there was soo many narrations. ppl dd not know what to do. so that is why we have the four great imams
hu by following any of them will be right as we do not understand arabic and they do so we should follow them.

but anyway we do not need to go in to that. the above was just a little history on how these fatwas came about.

now .. back to the answer we were looking for..

as you should already know the quran consists of many orders and many stories about different prophets such as prophet abraham, prophet noah, prophet moses. prophet solomon and daud, prophet jesus and themany other prophets including our prophet muhammad ( peace be upon them all).
so in these stories you will read that there are many orders that allah has given to them.

to our prophet (pbuh) allah has ordered the same things as he had done to all the rest such as ''spread my religion to your ppl''. bit also gave an extra order to which he never gave before, which was jihad.

now your probably thinking y... well the answer to that is that even the ppl of that tym hu were non belivers they also wanted to fight as well so allah gave the muslims PERMISSION : okay go on if they r wiling, go fight them.

but in the quran there are many places where it says '' kill'' them.
but we have to remember that in arabic each word may have many meanings. so half the tym when u r reading transalations they may not write the actual meaning but write which is most common. now the arabic word [ qatala ] meaning to kill has lots of meaings to it aswell such as to fight.
so when reading the quran many places it will mean fight with the non beleivers as in to do jihad.

in other places it may mean the common meaning to kill. meaning that when u r in jihad kill them and trick them. obviously in fight u would like to trick ppl so u would get victory isnt it? so doesnt that mean allah is just trying to help them in jihad saying that trick them so u get victory? is this wrong ? isnt it like how if u was in a fight and a frend told u to trick the oponent . so like this the same way allah is telling us o belivers trick them in jihad and kill them wherever u find them as they are willing to fight and kill you too.

okay now that is the answer i am giving but i also would like to add a bit more so you understand .

now maybe you are thinking that ok this may be but is this what u belive in nowadays?
okay as i said before that the mujtahideen and muhaditheen they had taken out fatwas that were according to ppls lifestyles and how it would be easy for the ppl then.

but what happens to those orders that do not fit ppls lifestyles?
well what these ppl ahve done is that they look at which part does not fit the ppls lifetstyles and according to that they search more and find out an easier way to do things.

with the same method this happned to the order of jihad. after the prophets and the khalifas tym the scholars had started to realize that jihad does no longer fit with ppl in this day and age. so the order of jihad became mansookh as in we do not go according to that order anymore. but what shcolars have done is that they made it easier for us ppl now .

instead of jihad what the fatwa is , is that we preach to ppl by talking and teaching.
so we do not have and order or a fatwa that says go and do jihad.

but then you may be thinking w8 a minute y r there so many muslims nowadays saying they need to do jihad?
well the answer is very obvious : these ppl are uneducated they do not know this and because they do not nuderstand arabic they just read the surface of it and act upon the quran.

well i know this is quite sad and i do apologize on behalf of what these young muslims do nowadays.

but i hope u understand quite abit form all this and i hope i can be of hellp if there is anything more in the future you do not understand.
Posted 8/14/10 , edited 8/14/10

deadspirit01 wrote:


explain to me why I should trust you wen right in your holy scriptures it tells you to lie to, manipulate, and kill non-believers?


ok so u r asking :
y does the quran tell us to lie, trick the non believers?
y does the quran tell us to kill them wherever we find them ?



quite reasonable questions above u have. well let us try to find out the answer to these questions. plz read carefully

first of all i would like to say is that after september (if allah wills) i will be in my last year in gaining my degree on islamic theology.so the information i will be giving is very authentic and reliable. just so u know im not making things up.
i will be using some arabic terms so if u really have studied the quran you should have came across them.

so let us start form back from the beggining. if you already know this then i shall be recaping so u understand better.
right... after a few hundreds of years after the prophet (pbuh) had left us with the magnificant quran and hadith. later on in the yrs the ppl of that tym ( also know as the awaaam ) started not understanding what orders they should obey in what situations. obvioulsy because arabic is quite a tricky language to understand and u need great ppl hu have the knowlegde of arabic to help.

so then the great scholars of that tym started looking into depth of the quran and hadith. these great ppl are also known as the mujtahideen and the muhaditheen. they were excellent ppl that had the knowlegde of arabic so they helped.
so soon afterwards these mujtahideen after getting to recognize each and every letter and what each ayat is tryin to say, they started giving orders out from the quran and hadith itself in which would match the lifestyles of that tym, and soon there were fatwas from many great scholars.

so now what happened was that there were many shcolars hu had helped, that each of them gave their own opinion of what they had researched. so there was soo many narrations. ppl dd not know what to do. so that is why we have the four great imams
hu by following any of them will be right as we do not understand arabic and they do so we should follow them.

but anyway we do not need to go in to that. the above was just a little history on how these fatwas came about.

now .. back to the answer we were looking for..

as you should already know the quran consists of many orders and many stories about different prophets such as prophet abraham, prophet noah, prophet moses. prophet solomon and daud, prophet jesus and themany other prophets including our prophet muhammad ( peace be upon them all).
so in these stories you will read that there are many orders that allah has given to them.

to our prophet (pbuh) allah has ordered the same things as he had done to all the rest such as ''spread my religion to your ppl''. bit also gave an extra order to which he never gave before, which was jihad.

now your probably thinking y... well the answer to that is that even the ppl of that tym hu were non belivers they also wanted to fight as well so allah gave the muslims PERMISSION : okay go on if they r wiling, go fight them.

but in the quran there are many places where it says '' kill'' them.
but we have to remember that in arabic each word may have many meanings. so half the tym when u r reading transalations they may not write the actual meaning but write which is most common. now the arabic word [ qatala ] meaning to kill has lots of meaings to it aswell such as to fight.
so when reading the quran many places it will mean fight with the non beleivers as in to do jihad.

in other places it may mean the common meaning to kill. meaning that when u r in jihad kill them and trick them. obviously in fight u would like to trick ppl so u would get victory isnt it? so doesnt that mean allah is just trying to help them in jihad saying that trick them so u get victory? is this wrong ? isnt it like how if u was in a fight and a frend told u to trick the oponent . so like this the same way allah is telling us o belivers trick them in jihad and kill them wherever u find them as they are willing to fight and kill you too.

okay now that is the answer i am giving but i also would like to add a bit more so you understand .

now maybe you are thinking that ok this may be but is this what u belive in nowadays?
okay as i said before that the mujtahideen and muhaditheen they had taken out fatwas that were according to ppls lifestyles and how it would be easy for the ppl then.

but what happens to those orders that do not fit ppls lifestyles?
well what these ppl ahve done is that they look at which part does not fit the ppls lifetstyles and according to that they search more and find out an easier way to do things.

with the same method this happned to the order of jihad. after the prophets and the khalifas tym the scholars had started to realize that jihad does no longer fit with ppl in this day and age. so the order of jihad became mansookh as in we do not go according to that order anymore. but what shcolars have done is that they made it easier for us ppl now .

instead of jihad what the fatwa is , is that we preach to ppl by talking and teaching.
so we do not have and order or a fatwa that says go and do jihad.

but then you may be thinking w8 a minute y r there so many muslims nowadays saying they need to do jihad?
well the answer is very obvious : these ppl are uneducated they do not know this and because they do not nuderstand arabic they just read the surface of it and act upon the quran.

well i know this is quite sad and i do apologize on behalf of what these young muslims do nowadays.

but i hope u understand quite abit form all this and i hope i can be of hellp if there is anything more in the future you do not understand.
Where's the institution that you will be conducting your study at? Do they also teach critical literature as a mandatory for your degree in Islamic theology? How do you explain the nonexistence of a god for faith cannot have proof, and without faith god does not exist, yet his creations are the factual proofs of his existence claimed by the organized religions? Can your Islamic dualism be anymore logical than the law of non-contradiction? That you being uncritical is the same as you being critical?

BTW, check your spellings. Even I'm having a hard time reading your broken English, when English isn't my native language.
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Posted 8/14/10 , edited 8/14/10
Dear god (oh the irony) am I really the only one that finds this thread manipulative and offensive?

First of all the "evidence" came from a biased site against muslims. Secondly NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE VIOLENT TERRORISTS. I don't care how many passages you quote from the Qu'aran, there are also very violent messages in the Bible. It's a matter of degree in ones religious fervor that leads to terrorism not the religion itself. It's amazing how many people forget the christian terrorists such as the IRA because muslims are an easy target.

EDIT: Jihad means a religious quest. Normally it's for spiritual enlightenment in the same way many Hindus and Buddhists seek enlightenment. By having major news outlets refer to terrorist acts and terrorists as jihad and jihadists only serves to cement the notion to an Al Quaida operative that his mission is one of a divine nature.
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