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Muslium father kills daughters for dating non muslisms
Posted 9/3/10

angelkake wrote:

ehh..so what else is new?
People kill other people all the time and at times for no reason whatsoever.
What he did was wrong no doubt.But why change it to an "islam sucks" topic?
Not all muslim fathers would go "You're dating a non-muslim?!!Off with your head!"
The guy himself had an option didnt he?He could've just sat down and talked to his daughters,instead he chose to murder them.
"And to be sure, the Qur’an or Islamic tradition does not sanction honor killing. Muslim spokesmen have hastened, after the recent killing in Canada of another teenage Muslim girl, Aqsa Parvez, by her father to tell the public that honor killing has nothing to do with Islam, but is merely a feature of Islamic culture in some areas."
It was in his culture to do so.I'm pretty sure many people of the same culture would denounce such acts of violence,whether they are muslims or not.
Perhaps he would've still killed his daughters if they were simply 'dating' regardless of the fact that the guys were muslims or not.
And its not like only Muslims do it. Heck Ive read so many other grotesque stories about non-muslims just as much.here are a few for example:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/man-killed-and-torched-prostitute-court-20100816-125sw.html
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=7929413
how come these things dont become such a huge issue with you guys?But when it involves a muslim its like BANG!!Musilms are the scum of the earth,islam is all bad,let's burn the quran blah blah..
Objection!

Not only that, the Islamic tradition of justice is based on dualism, meaning it actually normalizes intentional murder through act of mercy:

gal69lag wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


neko-cat wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


neko-cat wrote:

Muslim states
why do you say all Muslim states
it proves that you know nothing
in my country any killing is a crime
i never heard of any country that say killing is not a crime !!!!!!!!

hey i am not lying --------- why you just can't show any respect !!!!!
go and learn some ethics......

While your government normalized honor killing? Doubt it.

Although "honor killings" were uncommon, in June, in an apparent "honor killing" case, the Shari'a Appeal Court in Ras Al-Khaimah Emirate commuted a foreign national's sentence of death to 5 years served upon the defendant's parents' request that the death penalty be waived. The defendant was convicted of the death of his younger sister by stabbing because she married without her family's approval. The defendant also seriously injured a second sister who tried to intervene. (citation)


ya as i said any killing is a crime
and he get his punishment for it

all countries in the world have crimes in it
and there is a rate for that crimes
it is less in Islamic countries than other countries

are you telling me that there has been never any killing crimes in your country ??
Liar! When according to Islamic law any murderer is punishable only by death. Thereby your law is letting murderers of "honor killing" getting away unpunished.

BTW, in my country, we don't have capital punishment.


Not meaning to interrupt but, if you had bothered reading the site you had linked, it didn't say anything about murder being punishable ONLY (like you had emphasized) by capital punishment. It said murder can be punishable by death but it is encouraged not to.
So what's not to say that it normalizes intentional murder?
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Posted 9/6/10
It happen more often then you think it just get in the new when most of the time it done in a none Muslim country what big surprise. That Islam the religion of peace is not so peaceful. As Muslim move throughout the world this will happen more often unless they can hide it under Sharia Law. Big Shock
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Posted 9/10/10
im a Muslim girl and im not dead.
Posted 9/10/10 , edited 9/10/10

Sweet-Vampire21 wrote:

im a Muslim girl and im not dead.
Tell that to the women and children who are left dead, due to a failed religious states' legislation that doesn't offer protection for women from their own societies:

Who is responsible?

"Honour" killings of women (and occasionally their male "partners in crime") reflect longstanding patriarchal-tribal traditions. In a "bizarre duality," women are viewed "on the one hand as fragile creatures who need protection and on the other as evil Jezebels from whom society needs protection." Patriarchal tradition "casts the male as the sole protector of the female so he must have total control of her. If his protection is violated, he loses honour because either he failed to protect her or he failed to bring her up correctly." (Armstrong, "Honour's Victims.") Clearly, the vulnerability of women around the world to this type of violence will only be reduced when these patriarchal mindsets are challenged and effectively confronted.

As many of the examples cited in this case study indicate, state authorities frequently ignore their obligation to prosecute "honour" killings. They should be viewed as "co-conspirators" in such crimes, and held accountable by organizations such as the United Nations.(citation)
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Posted 9/10/10

Sweet-Vampire21 wrote:

im a Muslim girl and im not dead.


And this is relevant, how? It's obvious not all Muslim daughters are dead. What we are discussing is the motivations behind 'honour' killings and what they signify. do you have anything of substance to add?


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Posted 9/17/10
A Muslim woman can be killed with just being with a man not related to her. Death by stoning I think is the punishment.
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Posted 9/19/10
Wow seriously, I mean I know religion is important but still that's way too far. I have muslim friends and they like to cover up themselves because then when men approach them it's because of their personality and not their looks. So I understand but I could never live my life like that. that dad is ........
Posted 9/19/10 , edited 9/19/10

sakura13663 wrote:

Wow seriously, I mean I know religion is important but still that's way too far. I have muslim friends and they like to cover up themselves because then when men approach them it's because of their personality and not their looks. So I understand but I could never live my life like that. that dad is ........
I have a problem with that, as in I can't read a person too well without body and facial gestures. Whereas the Islamic teaching OTOH only values obedience in Muslim womanhood, and I personally find people who are simply obedient extremely boring and unattractive. Because they lack innovative, critical, and analytical thinking skills, while their expressions lack genuine emotions. And where a society sees oppression as the social norms, a social deviant in that situation is the hero who opposes oppressive power itself, and everything that symbolizes it.
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Posted 10/11/10
Honour killing is not part of Islam. Period. It is some fucked up people who misinterpret the Qur'An and think that they should kill people who disobey the rules. The same goes for all other religions unless it's a cult that is a different story. However i believe most religions want peace and not merciless killing of their own blood. And also in alot of cultures honour killing is part of them. The world around you itself is fucked up. So there is no point in labelling islam as a fucked up religion.
Posted 10/11/10 , edited 10/11/10

darkangle95 wrote:

Honour killing is not part of Islam. Period. It is some fucked up people who misinterpret the Qur'An and think that they should kill people who disobey the rules. The same goes for all other religions unless it's a cult that is a different story. However i believe most religions want peace and not merciless killing of their own blood. And also in alot of cultures honour killing is part of them. The world around you itself is fucked up. So there is no point in labelling islam as a fucked up religion.
Not when I can see an ideal Muslim state's legislation is broken due to its Islamic teaching in the first place:

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government.(citation)
Now can you tell me why relatively moderate Muslim state like Jordan still institutionalizes the tradition of honor killing within the Muslim family? While Canada OTOH treat it the same as intentional murder stem from a culture that justifies and institutionalizes gender inequality.
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Posted 10/12/10

DomFortress wrote:


darkangle95 wrote:

Honour killing is not part of Islam. Period. It is some fucked up people who misinterpret the Qur'An and think that they should kill people who disobey the rules. The same goes for all other religions unless it's a cult that is a different story. However i believe most religions want peace and not merciless killing of their own blood. And also in alot of cultures honour killing is part of them. The world around you itself is fucked up. So there is no point in labelling islam as a fucked up religion.
Not when I can see an ideal Muslim state's legislation is broken due to its Islamic teaching in the first place:[.


No it was not broken at all it never existed in the first place. Nothing was broken. It is just some people and their different ideologies and misinterpretation.

Posted 10/12/10

darkangle95 wrote:



No it was not broken at all it never existed in the first place. Nothing was broken. It is just some people and their different ideologies and misinterpretation
.Don't just deny my proven allegation with your baseless entitlement claims, and stick to the facts. Is it true that in every known Muslim state there's no separation between the Islamic faith and the state's legislation? Due to the fact that:

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government.(citation)
Now can you tell me why relatively moderate Muslim state like Jordan still institutionalizes the tradition of honor killing within the Muslim family? While Canada OTOH treat it the same as intentional murder stem from a culture that justifies and institutionalizes gender inequality. Keep in mind that failing to address my core claim again, and I'll request to have your comment be removed for lack of context.
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Posted 10/14/10 , edited 10/14/10

DomFortress wrote:


darkangle95 wrote:



No it was not broken at all it never existed in the first place. Nothing was broken. It is just some people and their different ideologies and misinterpretation
.Don't just deny my proven allegation with your baseless entitlement claims, and stick to the facts. Is it true that in every known Muslim state there's no separation between the Islamic faith and the state's legislation? Due to the fact that:

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government.(citation)
Now can you tell me why relatively moderate Muslim state like Jordan still institutionalizes the tradition of honor killing within the Muslim family? While Canada OTOH treat it the same as intentional murder stem from a culture that justifies and institutionalizes gender inequality. Keep in mind that failing to address my core claim again, and I'll request to have your comment be removed for lack of context.

Oh please you want to remove my comment just because i told you there were no such rules in the first place? Stop kidding. This states still practice honor killing because they never really understood what the Qur'An meant and they believe the words of their leaders without thinking. This is real common a lot of people blindly believe in whatever is given to them without understanding it. If they were to really understand what the Qur'An really meant this will not occur at all. And your quote. It is so unbalanced. It only states what muslim governments do yet you are labeling all muslims as people who kill others. Stop BSing because there are other muslims who do not follow this and are still alive. There are even muslims who marry non-muslims. You only believe what the media says yet you do not take a step to understand what Islam is really about. Narrow minded people like just make the world as fucked up as it is. Go ahead and delete this comment i could care less. I have made my point. It is up to you now.
Posted 10/14/10

darkangle95 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Don't just deny my proven allegation with your baseless entitlement claims, and stick to the facts. Is it true that in every known Muslim state there's no separation between the Islamic faith and the state's legislation? Due to the fact that:

The most difficult part of Islamic Law for most westerners to grasp is that there is no separation of church and state. The religion of Islam and the government are one. Islamic Law is controlled, ruled and regulated by the Islamic religion. The theocracy controls all public and private matters. Government, law and religion are one. There are varying degrees of this concept in many nations, but all law, government and civil authority rests upon it and it is a part of Islamic religion. There are civil laws in Muslim nations for Muslim and non-Muslim people. Shar'iah is only applicable to Muslims. Most Americans and others schooled in Common Law have great difficulty with that concept.The U.S. Constitution (Bill of Rights) prohibits the government from "establishing a religion." The U.S. Supreme Court has concluded in numerous cases that the U.S. Government can't favour one religion over another. That concept is implicit for most U.S. legal scholars and many U.S. academicians believe that any mixture of "church and state" is inherently evil and filled with many problems. They reject all notions of a mixture of religion and government.(citation)
Now can you tell me why relatively moderate Muslim state like Jordan still institutionalizes the tradition of honor killing within the Muslim family? While Canada OTOH treat it the same as intentional murder stem from a culture that justifies and institutionalizes gender inequality. Keep in mind that failing to address my core claim again, and I'll request to have your comment be removed for lack of context.


Oh please you want to remove my comment just because i told you there were no such rules in the first place? Stop kidding. This states still practice honor killing because they never really understood what the Qur'An meant and they believe the words of their leaders without thinking. This is real common a lot of people blindly believe in whatever is given to them without understanding it. If they were to really understand what the Qur'An really meant this will not occur at all. And your quote. It is so unbalanced. It only states what muslim governments do yet you are labeling all muslims as people who kill others. Stop BSing because there are other muslims who do not follow this and are still alive. There are even muslims who marry non-muslims. You only believe what the media says yet you do not take a step to understand what Islam is really about. Narrow minded people like just make the world as fucked up as it is. Go ahead and delete this comment i could care less. I have made my point. It is up to you now.
No, you didn't. All you managed to do insofar was you making more entitlement claims, without yourself presenting factual evidences to prove your claims to be true. And that's where and how I'll exploit your lies with objective factual proofs, observe.

First, how can anyone still be a true Muslim? Without practicing the Islamic faith throughly and without questioning. When Islam means "to submit" not "to interpret", how dare you to even suggest that there could be an alternative to interpret the Islamic holy text? As in what's the original teaching of these phrases other than to justify gender inequality and patriarchy:

Inequality Verses

There are many verses of the Qur'an, that constitute some of the muhkamat, or commands, that clearly and straightforwardly state doctrines which provide a doctrinal basis for the psychologically, socially, culturally, and civilizationally constructed inequality of the male and female in Muslim life and living. Indeed, nothing is more evident in all of Islamic history than such inequality of men and women. The sexual and gender inequality, with the inferior statuses, rights, and role of Muslim women in contemporary Muslim societies and cultures, derive directly from the doctrines of inequality of man and woman in the Qur'an, Sunnah, and Islamic Tradition and history.

Among the inequality verses of the Qur'an, the most decisive verse that supports male-female inequality, I think, is the following:


Men are the protectors
And maintainers of women,
Because God has given
The one more (strength)
Than the other, and because
They support them
From their means.
Therefore the righteous women
Are devoutly obedient, and guard
In (the husband’s) absence
What [chastity] God would have them guard.
As to those women
On whose part ye fear
Disloyalty and ill-conduct,
Admonish them (first),
(Next) refuse to share their beds,
(And last) beat them;
But if they return to obedience,
Seek not against them
Means of annoyance.
Qur'an, 4:34


The above verse is addressed to men. They are told certain things about their own status and the status of women and the relation in which men stand to women. First, men are told that they are in control of women, i.e., wives, but also responsible for their maintenance. Second, they are, then, told that, because they are the stronger sex physically and take care of, provide for, support, maintain, and protect women from sexually predatory men, they are entitled to the unquestioned obedience of their wives to them, and, finally, they are told, in the event of nushuz, or disobedience by a wife, how the husband is to proceed in order to discipline her. The verse opens with the Arabic words: Ar-rijaalu quwwaamuna ‘alan-nissa, which words are translated into English differently by different leading translators of the Qur'an. The key word in the above portion of the verse is quwwaamuuna. This word is variously interpreted and understood to mean different things by different interpreters of the Qur'an. It is, therefore, important to form some idea of its meaning, connotation, and implications for the cultural and social construction of gender and genderization in Islam.(citation)

Secondly, why did the holy text itself contradicts its own command with hints of gender equality in the first order?

Equality Verses
The decisive verse, which favors the equality of male and female, is 33:35. In English translation Yusuf Ali has rendered it as follows. (All quotations below are from The Holy Qur'an, Texts, Translation and Commentary, with Arabic Text and English Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, reissued with Roman Transliteration of the Arabic text by Nusrat Ali Nasri. )


For Muslim men and women.
For believing men and women,
For devout men and women,
For true men and women,
For men and women who are
Patient and constant, for men
And women who humble themselves,
For men and women who give
In charity, for men and women
Who fast (and deny themselves).
For men and women who
Guard their chastity, and
For men and women who
Engage much in God’s praise, --
For them has God prepared
Forgiveness and great reward.
Qur'an, 33:35


Other verses of the Qura'n which support the equality of men and women are:


The Believers, men
And women, are protectors,
One of another, they enjoin
What is just, and forbid
What is evil: they observe
Regular prayers, practice
Regular charity, and obey
God and His Apostle.
On them will God pour
His mercy: for God
Is Exalted in power, Wise.
Qur'an, 9:71


Besides spiritual equality of both man and woman, the Qur'an also holds both equally responsible for the transgression of the laws of the Islamic Shariah, i.e.; the boundaries set by God. This is clear from the following verses:


As to the thief
Male or female,
Cut off his or her hands:
A punishment by way
Of example, from God,
For their crime.
Qur'an, 5:41

The woman and the man
Guilty of adultery or fornication .---
Flog each of them
With a hundred stripes:
Let not compassion move you
In their case, in a matter
Prescribed by God, if ye believe
In God and the Last Day:
And let a party
Of the Believers
Witness their punishment.
Qur'an, 24:2

So tell me, since the holy text itself contradicted its own teaching, yet it claimed that all is good and allowed under God's command. Just how do you personally plan to make sense of it all. And what justifies your personal interpretation is the correct one? When you can't be a true Muslim without yourself submitting to the totality of the Islamic ways of life. Keep in mind that the moment you yourself picked and choose to ignore and breakaway from a specific contradiction within the Islamic holy text, you're no longer following the whole contradicted teaching of Islam. And you're no longer following a truly broken faith to call yourself a truly broken Muslim, you're simply just broken like your government.
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Posted 10/14/10 , edited 10/15/10


this translation is so full of crap and misinterpretation that it really hurts. where did you get this? in ORIGINAL Qur'an (arabic one and the only one that really counts) it says (just the first part 4:34):
the word is not "protector" but it actually says: "men have to take care of women" - women at the time could not own property. there was no place in the world where they could (matriarchal societies vanished till that time. mostly.) Then there is word "devoutly obedient". It is more like "righteous women don't cheat". I agree with that one. Then it says: their duty is to take care of the household while their men is not there. i don't care to explain word by word how wrong this translation is, but there is no word "chastity". Then it says: "talk to them" or "advise them", not admonish them. I know this part is most important to you: beat them. It actually says: you can hit them. Not "beat the crap out of them). AND it does not say: men, you can hit women, but it starts that verse in plural form. So, if you area women reading this, you can actually see here permission to hit you husband. And then in the last verse it says: when women are good, don't do them any harm. in a form of warning. Ok, this 3 language translating has killed me, so I'm off. could you please tell me where did you find this scary translation' I don't feel comfortable that there are Muslims actually reading this crap and are thinking that this is real Qur'an.
as for "where do i know all this?" - we were actually translating parts of Qur'an during college for comparison with croatian translation, and parts of old and new testament and to see how things were in those times from sociological perspective. (there was actually optional subject "women in bible and qur'an. pretty interesting. lots of hairy, veggie feminists. fun.
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