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Post Reply Did Lelouch Kill Euphie to Gain Japanese Support?
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Posted 8/14/10
Did Lelouch Kill Euphie for Japanese support?

Part three of my ally proEuphie’s post # 376 in Euphemia’s Murder, in the Code Geass forum in Anime Forum.

"PART THREE;

And some people write that Lelouch killed Euphemia to:

3) Gain as much Japanese support as possible for his Black Rebellion.

But remember what I wrote above about killing Euphemia to save Japanese lives:

But no reason, no matter how holy, or noble, or strong, or compelling, for killing people or even a single person can ever be a sufficient justification unless:
A) Killing that person or persons is the only way to achieve the goal or purpose used as a justification for killing.
OR
B) Achieving the goal or purpose in question without killing would:
1) Be too difficult.
2) Be too slow.
3) Be too dangerous for the person(s) making the decision and/or for one or more persons that they want or have to protect.

C) And of course no justification for killing one or more persons can ever be valid or right unless it is sufficiently good.

While killing Euphemia to save Human lives could possibly satisfy Condition C, killing Euphemia to gain support for one's cause can never be holy, or noble, or strong, or compelling enough to satisfy condition C.

But assume that it could be justified to kill someone to gain more support for your cause. Then killing Euphemia to get Japanese support would be justified IF it ALSO satisfied Condition A or Condition B1 or Condition B2 or Condition B3.

A) If Lelouch captured Euphemia and made a speech saying that he had seen her be taken over by some kind of mind control, that could get him just as much Japanese support as killing Euphemia. He could say that someone high up at the Tokyo Government Center or even at Pendragon must have wanted to sabotage the SAZ plan so much that they brainwashed Euphemia and then remotely triggered her programming during the meeting with Zero. Euphemia was innocent of desiring to order the massacre but the Britannian soldiers were guilty of willingly obeying her orders as they had obeyed Cornelia's and Clovis's orders to massacre. And Britannian soldiers would continue to obey future orders to massacre until the time, perhaps decades in the future, when Euphemia was freed from her brainwashing or Britannia somehow found another person as good as her. Were they willing to wait until then and endure massacre after massacre, or did they want to rise up and overthrow Britannia's tyranny?

Such a speech would have got Lelouch about as much support as killing Euphemia and making the speech he did make. And by shifting the blame away from Euphemia it would make it harder for many of the Japanese to be satisfied with avenging the massacre by killing Euphemia and then just quitting the rebellion. The only way to avenge the massacre would be to find and kill whoever had brainwashed Euphemia. And since actually nobody in the Britannian government had brainwashed her, the Japanese would never find the guilty party and quit until Lelouch was ready to manufacture one for them.

Thus not killing Euphemia could get Lelouch just as much support from the Japanese as killing her. Thus killing Euphemia to gain Japanese support does not satisfy condition A.

And I already wrote above that killing Euphemia would not satisfy Condition B1 or Condition B2 or Condition B3.

And I should point out that:

1) The failure of the SAZ plan when the massacre started left rebellion as the only hope for more freedom for the Japanese.
2) Now that the JLF had been destroyed Zero and the Black Knights were the best bet to lead any rebellion.
3) Zero gained a lot of Japanese support by A) defeating the Britannians at Fuji Rescuing the surviving Japanese at Fuji, and C) leading the march to capture Tokyo.

And it is always better to have support you earned than support you have not earned. When the Black Knights reached Fuji the Britannians were widely scattered to hunt down Japanese survivors and it would take time to find and defeat all the Britannians. And at the start of episode 23 Euphemia had broadcast an order to kill Japanese people. It would take even more time to find and defeat all the Britannians who might be obeying that order elsewhere. The fastest way to save as many Japanese lives as possible was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to try and stop the massacre(s) as soon as possible. Not trying to use Euphemia as a hostage may have condemned tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese to death who could have been saved by using Euphemia as a hostage.

It is better to earn and deserve as much support as possible and use your propaganda to convince as many people as possible of the true fact that you have earned their support than to earn and deserve a lesser degree of support and then use your propaganda to deny reports that you did not do everything you possibly could to earn and deserve support. By killing Euphemia and not trying to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre(s) Lelouch may have let many Japanese be killed. And so he did not deserve as much support from the Japanese as he would have deserved if he had captured her and tried to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre(s).

And Lelouch knew that it was not absolutely certain that the enemy would react to each of his moves in a specific way. He knew that various possible enemy actions would change the course of the Black Rebellion drastically. And thus the amount of support he would need from the Japanese people would change drastically. In many situations he would get much more support than he needed even without killing Euphemia. And in many other situations he would need so much support that he could not possibly get enough support even by killing Euphemia. Only in a very few situations would killing Euphemia be both necessary and sufficient to get Lelouch the extra amount of support he needed.

Did Lelouch have a policy of "When in doubt, kill"? If so he was evil. Did Lelouch have a policy of killing everyone and anyone whose deaths might benefit his plans, even if there was only a slight probability that those deaths would benefit his plans, and even if there was a strong probability that those deaths would harm and even ruin his plans? If so Lelouch was evil, and senselessly evil.

And there was another reason why Lelouch should not have killed Euphemia to gain as much Japanese support as possible.

Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for the Black Rebellion to have even the slightest chance of succeeding.

In episode 24 Lelouch gloated to his confidante CC that once the rebels proclaimed Japanese Independence in the Tokyo Government Center the Emperor would have no choice but to come to meet Zero. Thus Lelouch revealed that an important part of his plan was the Emperor's visit. And Lelouch revealed that he had no plans to fight off the renewed Britannian invasions which would result instead of the Emperor's visit and that Japan would be ground into the dust in defeat, even with Lelouch in command.

In episode 21 Lelouch was working on plans for a coup. I call those his Plan One. I deduce that those plans probably included starting a violent incident that would start a revolt and marching from the site of the incident to Tokyo to capture the government center and proclaim independence and invite the Emperor to a visit. When the Emperor arrived Lelouch would spring his trap and take over Britannia, locate and eliminate all those who had conspired against his mother, and remake the world to his desire.

After Euphemia proposed the SAZ plan at the end of episode 21 Lelouch developed his Plan Two. I believe that it was very similar to his Plan One except that he substituted the opening ceremony of the SAZ for the time and place of the rebellion-sparking incident in his Plan One. In episode 22 Lelouch told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him which would start a riot to start his revolution and he would rise from the deed to prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah.

And after the massacre started Lelouch quickly started to follow his Plan Three. Since he had no time to plan it should have been only slightly different from his Plan Two.

If Lelouch's Plan Two had any provision for saving Euphemia from the fury of the Japanese -- by claiming that shooting him was not her fault because she had gone crazy, for example -- Lelouch could have adapted that method to his Plan Three. If Lelouch had such a plan to divert Japanese anger away from Euphie in his Plan Two, when the massacre started he would have noticed the Britannian soldiers were slaughtering the Japanese with great enthusiasm and realized there were a lot more shoulders to divert the Japanese hatred onto than in his previous Plan Two, making it easier to turn the Japanese anger away from the obviously insane or mind-controlled Euphemia and onto the Britannian soldiers who had obeyed her even when she was clearly insane or mind-controlled.

But Lelouch did not do so in his Plan Three, so he probably had nothing planned to protect Euphemia from the misdirected Japanese anger she would face in his Plan Two. Apparently Lelouch didn't care if Euphemia lived or died, or even wanted her dead. Either attitude is evil and disgusting.

Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to a meeting in Tokyo he should have realized that he had to do everything possible to avoid scaring the Emperor away from the meeting. This meant that everything that Zero did had to be considered as propaganda to lull the Emperor into a false sense of security about the leader of the rebellion, as much or more than propaganda to gain Japanese support.

So Lelouch had to make the rebel leader seem like a great defender of the Japanese to gain Japanese support, while not appearing too frightening to the Britannians and especially the Emperor.

So Lelouch should have planned to have Zero, who had claimed to be the murderer of Prince Clovis, "killed" in some spectacular incident and replaced as masked leader of the Black Knights by Lelouch claiming to be someone who approved of Zero's goals but not of Zero's more extreme methods. This "new" leader would denounce the murder of Clovis and any other excessively violent deeds of Zero but praise all the good that Zero had done and vow to fight Britannia as hard as Zero but without resorting to terrorism or any atrocities.

Lelouch should have realized that the leader of the Black Knights had to seem as honorable, kind, and gullible as possible in order for the Emperor to feel it was safe to come, as well as seeming to be a great defender of the Japanese to keep Japanese support.

So Lelouch should have tried to keep Britannian deaths, especially civilian deaths, as low as possible. And he should have tried to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive at all costs.

Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia was killed in the uprising the Emperor would suspect that she had been deliberately killed in the false belief that would hurt the Emperor, who actually did not love his children. Thus he would believe that the rebels and their leader really hated him and it would be suicidal for him to come to Japan for talks. So Lelouch's Plan Two should have had a provision to make certain that Euphemia escaped alive.

And when the massacre started Lelouch should not have thought: "Great! Now that Euphie started a massacre on live television I don't have to worry about harming Zero's reputation any more and can kill her like I want to." No, Lelouch should have remembered that anyone who knew Euphie even slightly, like her father, would find it hard to believe she would order a massacre. So they would suspect that the massacre story was a lie. They would think that the "live" television included prerecorded computer-generated images switched on at the right moment, such as a "routine" cut from one camera angle to another. Or they would think that some kind of mind control had been used on her, perhaps by Zero. General Darlton did ask "What did you do to her?" so probably a lot of other people actually suspected that Zero did something to Euphemia even without knowing about geass.

Lelouch should have believed, even after the massacre started, that if Euphie was killed, the Emperor would think "Thank goodness Zero killed Euphemia and revealed how much he hates me. Now I'll never be stupid enough to go to meet him."

Lelouch should have known that if he killed Euphemia the Emperor would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to come to Japan and his plan would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to work. Lelouch saw how easy it would have been to capture Euphemia alive. But he killed Euphemia anyway.

So Lelouch seems to have believed that since he wanted the Emperor to walk into his trap the Emperor would certainly walk into his trap and he didn't have to worry about scaring the Emperor away. So he killed Euphemia and thus doomed his plan to fail even if VV had not been sent to kidnap Nunnally.

So Lelouch seems to have been a homicidal maniac in Episodes 21 to 25 -- and perhaps many more episodes.

I am really shocked and disgusted by all the expressions of sorrow for Lelouch's death that some people write. They remind me of Kaguya adoring Lelouch so soon after he senselessly murdered Euphemia.


Thus I show that:
1) Euphemia did not have to die to save the Japanese from her.
2) Euphemia did not have to die to save her from a life worse than death.
3) Euphemia did not have to die to gain Lelouch a necessary and sufficient amount of support from the Japanese. In fact, Euphemia had to survive for Lelouch's plan to succeed. Lelouch had to save Euphemia or fail.

Thus there was no good and humane reason to kill Euphemia, or even an evil reason that made any sense. And a lot of good and humane, and sensible and pragmatic, reasons to save Euphemia."

End of quote from proEuphie.

Thus my ally proEuphie seems to have proven that none of the main reasons usually given why Lelouch killed Euphemia were good, decent, or humane reasons. And none of the evil, brutal, ruthless, cruel reasons usually given make any sense for practical reasons. In fact proEuphie has proven that Lelouch could not possibly have had a motive for killing Euphemia that made any practical sense.

Posted 8/15/10
Instead of reading all 3 walls of text, I just skipped to the conclusions. Now it seems to me that you and your friend have done a decent analysis of this, but you're simply missing the point of the anime events here.

Lelouch accidently used is Geass on Euphemia due to the loss of control. Did Lelouch intend to use Euphemia the way things turned out? Absolutely not. His plan of making Euphemia wound him would've been much better than the accidental slaughter that occurred. However, she got that Geass cast on her and was unable to resist it. As it is impossible to get rid of a Geass without achieving the goal that it orders you to do achieve, Lelouch had no other choice to kill Euphemia. The alternative would be to lock her up forever, like a wild animal that's constantly trying to find ways to kill people while she doesn't really want to. Be it the humane choice or the practical one, it does not matter. Lelouch did what he thought was best. Not only best for Euphemia (if she had lived, it wouldn't have been pretty), but also what's best for his objectives, thus using the accident with Euphemia to serve his goals and trying to get something out of it that can be considered positive, depending on the perspective.

As for the quote of my post in the other thread. Lelouch is simply alive. The theory is solid. You can want him to be dead al you want, but he's out there. Perhaps you can consider his eternal life some sort of punishment?
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Posted 8/15/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:

Instead of reading all 3 walls of text, I just skipped to the conclusions. Now it seems to me that you and your friend have done a decent analysis of this, but you're simply missing the point of the anime events here.

Lelouch accidently used is Geass on Euphemia due to the loss of control. Did Lelouch intend to use Euphemia the way things turned out? Absolutely not. His plan of making Euphemia wound him would've been much better than the accidental slaughter that occurred. However, she got that Geass cast on her and was unable to resist it. As it is impossible to get rid of a Geass without achieving the goal that it orders you to do achieve, Lelouch had no other choice to kill Euphemia. The alternative would be to lock her up forever, like a wild animal that's constantly trying to find ways to kill people while she doesn't really want to. Be it the humane choice or the practical one, it does not matter. Lelouch did what he thought was best. Not only best for Euphemia (if she had lived, it wouldn't have been pretty), but also what's best for his objectives, thus using the accident with Euphemia to serve his goals and trying to get something out of it that can be considered positive, depending on the perspective.

As for the quote of my post in the other thread. Lelouch is simply alive. The theory is solid. You can want him to be dead al you want, but he's out there. Perhaps you can consider his eternal life some sort of punishment?


I really think that you should read all three walls of text, which total less than a mere six thousand words, even if it takes you weeks at a few minutes per day.

Yes, Lelouch accidentally used his geass on Euphemia, but that was a result of his earlier plan, which proEuphie calls "Plan Two", to make her shoot him and start a riot which would turn into a bloody slaughter until the Black Knights arrive to save the surviving Japanese and lead the march on Tokyo.

Suppose that a man called Hcuolel thinks that his wife is cheating on him with his neighbor and best friend. One day, his children leave to go to school in the village in the valley below and his wife goes to borrow a cup of sugar from his neighbor. Hcuolel's aged mother is asleep and will not wake up for hours. So Hcuolel, filled with rage, climbs up the mountain to a spot above his neighbor's house, preparing to unleash a landslide that will hit the neighbor's house and kill his wife, his neighbor, and all his neighbor's innocent family members. But he decides to be certain first, and listens to the bug he planted in his neighbor's house. To his joy he hears his wife and his neighbor planning a surprise party for him.

Hcuolel dances with joy that he doesn't have to kill them, slips and grabs a bush to save himself. He pulls himself to safety, but the few rocks he knocked off dislodge a few more rocks and then more, and more, and and more, and more until a giant landslide much bigger than he had ever imagined destroys his neighbor's house and his own house with his sleeping mother and roars down into the valley to sweep away the entire village with hundreds of houses, churches, stores, the hospital and the school.

Hcuolel is legally guilty of murdering everyone killed in the landslide, instead of just the few people in his neighbor's house that he was planning to kill. The landslide that killed hundreds or thousands of people was a direct result of his earlier evil plan to kill a few people.

Lelouch's earlier plan would have resulted in a bloodbath almost as violent as the Fuji Massacre. It would not spark his revolution if it did not.

I say that Lelouch probably planned to use Euphemia similar to the way things turned out. Remember that Lelouch pointed guns at Euphie in "Black Knight" and "Island of the Gods", and seemed to consider murdering her before deciding against it, even without any incident to give him even the slightest excuse. Yuck!!

It is not impossible to get rid of a geass without completing the task. I hear that in the second season Nunnally remembered that she could see despite her father's geass. And in the second season Jeremiah had a geass canceler. Did Lelouch think that a few weeks or months would make him an expert on geass? in episode 22 he didn't even bother to ask his geass expert CC if there was any way to undo his geass command on Euphemia, despite his great lack of evidence about long a geass command would control someone.

And I remind you that the geass command did not make Euphie kill Suzaku in the sickbay of the Avalon, when she still had the strength to kill him using the same method she had used to kill thousands. And when Euphie was talking to Lelouch she seemed to pass out of the control of the geass command and forget about the massacre. Otherwise she would have remembered when Lelouch gave her the geass command (which all who obey his commands have to forget after they come out of the geass control, otherwise they would know that he ordered them to do what other people tell them they did do) and she would remember that Lelouch was obviously joking and didn't mean it and she was forced to obey anyway and thus Lelouch would not want her to massacre and thus would try to stop her.

Either Euphemia broke her geass command through her superhuman reluctance to kill, and suddenly found herself ins a strange situation and was trying to figure it out, or else Lelouch's vague command, which was never intended as a command, was so vague the geass would only make Euphie obey for a few minutes or hours and then stop, since it was uncertain how many people Euphie was supposed to kill -- and Lelouch should have expected from his tests that such a vague command would only control someone for a short time.

But it doesn't matter how long the geass would have controlled Euphemia, because nobody can ever be better off dead. Life, no matter how agonizing, is infinitely better than death. Anyone who believes that someone would be better of dead than alive, especially someone with such a minor problem as Euphemia had, is suffering from a kind of insanity. It is almost clinically insane to imagine that anyone could ever be better off dead in any circumstances.

I cannot stand the idea that anyone in the world could have the twisted idea that anyone could ever be better off dead under any circumstances. I can only hope that nobody who believes that will ever be allowed to vote or run for public office.

And how can you say that killing Euphemia was best for Lelouch's objectives? Lelouch changed his objectives right before giving Euphemia the geass command. Did rediscovering his love for Euphie mean nothing to him? How could he decide in just a few minutes to go back to his old plan of rebellion? Lelouch didn't have enough time to consider what he wanted to do with the rest of his life, so he should have kept all his options open as best as he could until he had time to consider his intentions. He should have had the Black Knights act like the knights of justice they claimed to be in "Black Knight" and interfere only to stop the massacre -- and the best way to stop the massacre and save lives was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to force the Britannians to stop.

Lelouch could decide if he wanted to revolt later.

And besides, proEuphie has proven that Lelouch absolutely, positively had to have a live Euphemia for his plan for the Black Rebellion to have even the slightest chance of success. Lelouch was certainly intelligent enough that he could have and should have figured that out. Lelouch was certainly a skilled enough tactician that he could have and should have instantly realized that once Euphemia's knightmare was destroyed she was totally at his mercy and he was not forced by military necessity to take any particular action but could choose.to do what was fastest, easiest, and safest for himself and for the Japanese, which was to capture Euphemia alive.

But Lelouch killed her anyway. And every single viewer should have instantly hated Lelouch at that moment, if not much sooner.

If Lelouch is alive, eternal life is no kind of punishment. If Lelouch is alive, I can only hope that he will be tortured for years and years of agony until he gives his code to someone, such a a child dying of an illness, and dies.
Posted 8/16/10
Well, I read this wall of text.

First, there is something I found I do agree on.


Lelouch's earlier plan would have resulted in a bloodbath almost as violent as the Fuji Massacre. It would not spark his revolution if it did not.


Although it ending up in an instantaneous rebellion is uncertain, it is possible (and likely that Lelouch thought of it) that the present 11'ers would do more than just get ticked off. However, considering the presence of the Brittanian military, Euphemia would be just fine.

As for the Geass, it is mentionned by CC and Lelouch multiple times that a person under a Geass has no other choice but to comply with the order. You say Nunnally resisted, well, she did, vigorously, but eventually she complied. Combine this with the "kill all Japanese" order, and you have yourself a massive problem. Also, if Lelouch had captured Euphemia instead of executing her, it would've ended up the same as he would not have been able to provide a logical explanation to his follower to not kill her without revealing all about his Geass, which would basically ruin everything. Not to mention the part where I don't think Euphemia would be able to live with herself, even after getting rid of/finishing the Geass.

Now you drag in some sort of moral code you uphold, which is that all life is sacred (I can agree on that sorta) and that life should be preserved at all costs. I suppose that clearly points out how you feel on selfcontrol of life or death, e.g. suicide or ending one's life when suffering from a terminal illness. I can not agree with your reasoning, but considering how that is way off topic here, I will not elaborate on it. I simply respect that you think this way, although I hope you are not the one to force such views on other people (Imagine you're ever in office and several people desire to end their lives. Do you have the right to stop them?).

In any case, I also was totally surprised with the Euphy-incident. To my feeling, things went totally fubar at that point. But despite that, or maybe just thanks to that, the anime is so great. The main character isn't void of all error, does not have a clear moral high ground over all others or is not so cold that he doesn't care about his own sister (somewhat dooming the black rebellion in season one due to it). You say people should hate Lelouch because of that, but what about all before that? All that perished and died in his uprising? It's not like Lelouch has a selfless motive here. He's not a white character, nor is he a black character. He's a gray character, and any story that wants to be absolutely fabulous should have most of their characters like that. It's simply more realistic. A story where characters are just black and white is, in general, rather predictable. People make mistakes and have to live with them. That's something very present in this anime, and adds to its greatness.
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Posted 8/16/10 , edited 8/16/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:

Well, I read this wall of text.

First, there is something I found I do agree on.


Lelouch's earlier plan would have resulted in a bloodbath almost as violent as the Fuji Massacre. It would not spark his revolution if it did not.


Although it ending up in an instantaneous rebellion is uncertain, it is possible (and likely that Lelouch thought of it) that the present 11'ers would do more than just get ticked off. However, considering the presence of the Brittanian military, Euphemia would be just fine.


No. The massive Britannian military presence and Suzaku's presence did not save Euphemia the way things turned out.

But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops to hunt down the Japanese they might have protected her fine in Lelouch's plan two where he would make her shoot him. But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops and they remained massed at the stadium they might not only protect Euphie but defeat the Black knights when they arrived, ruining his plans to start a rebellion.

I suspect that for reasons of time Lelouch did not tell Euphie every order he planed to giver her. I suspect that Lelouch planned to give her detailed orders to shoot him and collect a bunch of Japanese prisoners to be kept near his "dead" body to be witnesses when he rose from the "dead" (how he planned that is not certain) while Euphemia would send most of her troops to hunt down the Japanese. Thus almost as many Japanese would have been slaughtered as in the actual Fuji Massacre, and Euphemia's troops would have been scattered and easy to defeat just as in the actual Fuji massacre.

In any case, there would be many possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie killed or captured by the revengeful Japanese, and many possible troop deployments which would result in the Black Knights being defeated and Euphemia safe and sound. But there should have been only a small set of possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie safe and sound. And the Britannaisn being defeated was necessary for Lelouch's plan to start well. As soon as Euphemia completed her geass task and returned to her normal self she would try to stop the fighting and risk her life. So Lelouch may have planned to giver her many orders to do many things to pour fuel on the fire instead of stopping the fight.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:As for the Geass, it is mentionned by CC and Lelouch multiple times that a person under a Geass has no other choice but to comply with the order. You say Nunnally resisted, well, she did, vigorously, but eventually she complied. Combine this with the "kill all Japanese" order, and you have yourself a massive problem. Also, if Lelouch had captured Euphemia instead of executing her, it would've ended up the same as he would not have been able to provide a logical explanation to his follower to not kill her without revealing all about his Geass, which would basically ruin everything. Not to mention the part where I don't think Euphemia would be able to live with herself, even after getting rid of/finishing the Geass.


Yes, Nunnally is said to have resisted a geass command from Lelouch like Euphemia and obeyed it eventually like Euphemia. But it is also said that Nunnally regained her sight, defeating after eight years the Emperor's geass which made her forget that she could see. I believe that Euphemia defeated her geass command and returned to her normal self right before Lelouch shot her, tens of thousands of times faster than Nunnally escaped from her blindness geass.

Otherwise she and the geass command would have known everything she did to obey the geass and everything from her previous life. Including the fact that Lelouch was clearly joking when he said kill the Japanese, but the geass command made her do so anyway. That would clearly make her believe that Lelouch would try to stop the massacre. Thus the geass command should have tried to make her find out what Lelouch intended, or just shoot him..

Anyway, I hear that the girl Lelouch commanded to make a cross on the wall every day eventually just started to draw a line, indicating that her geass was winding down.

The :"kill all the Japanese" order was not a massive problem given the availability of secure prisons and insane asylums. In the world of Code Geass, as in our real world, the vast majority of free and unrestrained people, including the vast majority of the people that Lelouch knew and didn't try to kill, follow of their own free will, without supernatural compulsion, a much more evil and dangerous rule than "kill all the Japanese".

Are you saying that if Lelouch captured Euphie and said she was innocent because she had been compelled by mind control, that would be exactly the same thing as ruining everything by admitting to the world that he had the power to give geass commands? That does not seem like a logical claim.

And of course in "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to gain Japanese Support" proEuphie proved that Lelouch desperately needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work.

And of course Euphie would probably be able to live with herself after coming out of the geass control and realizing what she had done.

Let me suggest that for a vacation you go to Shri Lanka and visit the camps where teenage former Tamil Tiger guerrillas and terrorists are being trained to return to a normal life and talk to a lot of the kids. Most of them will say that they did or were ready to do evil things when they were guerrillas, fighting and killing, but now they realize that they were wrong. Then ask them if they want to die because of the evil they did as guerrillas and they will probably all ask if you are crazy. They will say that maybe fictional characters want to die because of their past sins but real people don't.

I myself once had a goal that I now realize was far more evil than Euphemia's task to "kill all the Japanese'" but I don't want to die because of my former evil.

And of course a super good person like Euphie with all her "won't power" to resist her evil desires would be far stronger psychologically than any evil person who obeys them would be. Euphemia has had to live for years with the knowledge of many great evils in her world, some of them perpetrated by people she loved. I think she was already wallowing in guilt but managed to be reasonably happy anyway, so adding a little more guilt from the massacre wouldn't be enough to break such a strong person.


Yuno_Gasai wroteIn Now you drag in some sort of moral code you uphold, which is that all life is sacred (I can agree on that sorta) and that life should be preserved at all costs. I suppose that clearly points out how you feel on selfcontrol of life or death, e.g. suicide or ending one's life when suffering from a terminal illness. I can not agree with your reasoning, but considering how that is way off topic here, I will not elaborate on it. I simply respect that you think this way, although I hope you are not the one to force such views on other people (Imagine you're ever in office and several people desire to end their lives. Do you have the right to stop them?).


NO, it is not a moral code but a belief that scientifically and factually, life may suck but death is infinitely worse than even the most horrible tortures. Thus anyone who thinks that he is better off dead than alive has an irrational idea.

Yes, I would try to prevent suicides.

But that has nothing to do with the matter here. What i am saying is that Lelouch hadn't seen Euphie except for a few hours in the last half of her life and didn't know her well enough to make any kind of decisions about what was psychologically better for her in hypothetical situations. And of course he had no right over her life or death.

Lelouch could not see at a glance whether Euphie would be better off alive or dead (or even if anyone could ever be better off dead). But he could see at a glance that once Euphe's knightmare was destroyed he had no justification to kill her since he could capture her alive faster, easier, and safer than killing her the way he chose to kill her. There can never be any justification for killing someone in such a situation.



Yuno_Gasai wroteIn any case, I also was totally surprised with the Euphy-incident. To my feeling, things went totally fubar at that point. But despite that, or maybe just thanks to that, the anime is so great. The main character isn't void of all error, does not have a clear moral high ground over all others or is not so cold that he doesn't care about his own sister (somewhat dooming the black rebellion in season one due to it). You say people should hate Lelouch because of that, but what about all before that? All that perished and died in his uprising? It's not like Lelouch has a selfless motive here. He's not a white character, nor is he a black character. He's a gray character, and any story that wants to be absolutely fabulous should have most of their characters like that. It's simply more realistic. A story where characters are just black and white is, in general, rather predictable. People make mistakes and have to live with them. That's something very present in this anime, and adds to its greatness.


Code Geass is terrible and ghastly because of the Euphemia incident. Any anime which gets millions of viewers to have even the least bit of sympathy or liking for someone who does something so obviously evil is warped and disgusting.

Lelouch is so cold that he doesn't care about his own sister Euphemia, killing her for no good or decent or humane reason and for no evil, cruel, ruthless reason that make any practical sense.

And yes Lelouch did fallibly doom his rebellion when he left to save his other sister Nunnally. But Lelouch also doomed his rebellion to fail earlier when he killed Euphemia for no reason that makes any sense. In "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to gain Japanese Support" proEuphie proved that Lelouch desperately needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work. And that Lelouch had enough time to realize that. But he killed Euphie anyway, proving that he was either evil, stupid, insane, or some combination. And every one who died and perished in Lelouch's rebellion died in vain because Lelouch killed Euphemia when he didn't need to and doomed it to certain eventual failure.

Any character who ever finds himself in a situation where someone is obviously so wonderfully, incredibly easy to capture alive as Euphemia was and kills them anyway is not gray. He is BLACK, BLACK, BLACK!!! Nobody who has any slightest desire to do good will ever see someone who is so easy to capture alive and kill them anyway. Nobody who could do such a terrible thing can ever be worth the slightest trace of audience interest, respect, or liking. Lelouch is a monster of evil.

Seeing that some one is so obviously easy and safe to capture alive as Euphemia was and killing them anyway is not a mistake. It is CRIME!! A foul and disgusting crime.

Euphemia was the only character in the entire show who had enough inhibitions about killing people to be worth liking or worth being the protagonist. All the other characters were far more evil than Euphemia was -- even Euphemia after being given the geass command. Killing her off halfway through the series made the rest of it pointless, merely evil people fighting other evil people with nobody to care about.
Posted 8/18/10

No. The massive Britannian military presence and Suzaku's presence did not save Euphemia the way things turned out.

But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops to hunt down the Japanese they might have protected her fine in Lelouch's plan two where he would make her shoot him. But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops and they remained massed at the stadium they might not only protect Euphie but defeat the Black knights when they arrived, ruining his plans to start a rebellion.

I suspect that for reasons of time Lelouch did not tell Euphie every order he planed to giver her. I suspect that Lelouch planned to give her detailed orders to shoot him and collect a bunch of Japanese prisoners to be kept near his "dead" body to be witnesses when he rose from the "dead" (how he planned that is not certain) while Euphemia would send most of her troops to hunt down the Japanese. Thus almost as many Japanese would have been slaughtered as in the actual Fuji Massacre, and Euphemia's troops would have been scattered and easy to defeat just as in the actual Fuji massacre.

In any case, there would be many possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie killed or captured by the revengeful Japanese, and many possible troop deployments which would result in the Black Knights being defeated and Euphemia safe and sound. But there should have been only a small set of possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie safe and sound. And the Britannaisn being defeated was necessary for Lelouch's plan to start well. As soon as Euphemia completed her geass task and returned to her normal self she would try to stop the fighting and risk her life. So Lelouch may have planned to giver her many orders to do many things to pour fuel on the fire instead of stopping the fight.


The plan was simply a wound (check the series, it's mentioned specifically by Zero), and the Black Knights that were present were needed for a necessary extraction. Would a bloodbath occur, who knows? Mind you that the objective of this plot was to prevent the Black Knights from breaking apart, which would've effectively removed most of Zero's power, both ideological and military. Which is also more or less the only reason why Euphemia's family allowed her to pursue the special administrative region plan. Something that can be considered a very naive plan at best.


I believe that Euphemia defeated her geass command and returned to her normal self right before Lelouch shot her, tens of thousands of times faster than Nunnally escaped from her blindness geass.


As nice as your belief may be, it's no more than that. She was shooting still with a machine gun when he found her and asked him whether he would not be so nice to help her out kill some Japanese. After she got picked up by Suzaku, her eyes were still redish, indicating throughout the entire show that a Geass is active, also asking at some point "Suzaku, aren't you Japanese?". Admitedly, yes, she doesn't kill him, but give the girl a break will ya. She is severely wounded and slowly bleeding out, after all, saying goodbye to her sweet knight. Though perhaps a little inconsistent with known Geass abilities and consequences, it is a given that dying main characters in anime always get a nice amount of, be it a bit agonizing, time to say their goodbyes and last words and make a nice exit. Any fan of anime wouldn't have it any other way. So any claim of her beating her Geass is therefore false, considering there is no evidence in favor, only evidence against such claims.

Which brings me to this. Now truly, I was highly amused by this.



NO, it is not a moral code but a belief that scientifically and factually, life may suck but death is infinitely worse than even the most horrible tortures. Thus anyone who thinks that he is better off dead than alive has an irrational idea.


I am not aware as to what you consider as science, but I'm assuming it's the dictionary meaning, in which case your scientific claim is merely an attempt to add legitimacy to your point of view, as is done so often when convenient. However, there is no such proof based on scientific methods, as it is simply impossible to get data from what happens when you die (other than human impressions). Who knows, there might be an afterlife out there that's better. Science does not prove it, but also can't deny it (which is so great about science, cause you can never claim or deny anything without some form evidence upon which to base your theory, which can later be falsified if proven wrong). I also doubt your factual data claim, as you are still reading and typing and thus not dead (good for you). Life and death and the difference between them is part of religious and philosophical (at best) terrain, and thus mostly a moral opinion which you can either choose to accept or not. It is also highly doubtful that a terminally ill patient who's in quite a great deal of pain will agree with you, or someone who's most exciting moment of the day is when the nurse comes to feed him/her.
So I can imagine you think any form of life over death is better, regardless of the circumstances. In any case, after the accident, Lelouch used the cards he was dealed perfectly. If he had done it any other way, there would have been problems, which would've been a waste of all the sacrifices (both intentional and unintentional) made that tragic day.



Are you saying that if Lelouch captured Euphie and said she was innocent because she had been compelled by mind control, that would be exactly the same thing as ruining everything by admitting to the world that he had the power to give geass commands? That does not seem like a logical claim.


Yes, I do, as he would not only have to be able to explain the details of such mind control. He would also have to explain why he's so well informed about it. A dangerous precedent capable of endangering all previous accomplishments.


Lelouch is so cold that he doesn't care about his own sister Euphemia, killing her for no good or decent or humane reason and for no evil, cruel, ruthless reason that make any practical sense.


Well, that's your opinion. I'm afraid you can hardly proclaim it as truth. There was more than one reason available. To be honest, I do not understand your extreme sympathy for the Euphemia character. What's so great about her? Yes, she seems nice and she wants to do the right thing. But aside from being incredibly naive, she's also a product of the royal family of Brittannia. What does she know about the real world, having grown up in the sheltered environment of Aries Imperial Villa? It's clear she knows nothing, as she is naive enough to believe another sort of special measure can be the solution to the problems in Japan. Hey everyone, let's all live together in some new sort of settlement where we will all be equal. It's a nice theory, but much like the honorary brittannian system, it's flawed in its practice. Enough indications are throughout the series how deep the superiority complex of the Brittiannians is. Hell, the opening episode set the tone perfectly. Hundreds of innocent people butchered by giant mechanical machines. Racism, contempt, discrimination and all of this justified by the imperial ideology. That, to me, makes every single citizen of Brittiannia an accomplice, in specific members of the court who have easier access to classified information. If Euphemia really was such a goody person as you perceive her to be, she would've done way more useful things, way sooner. How hard can it be in a world where everyone is trying to gain status at the court to get some things done when you're of royal blood?


And yes Lelouch did fallibly doom his rebellion when he left to save his other sister Nunnally. But Lelouch also doomed his rebellion to fail earlier when he killed Euphemia for no reason that makes any sense. In "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to gain Japanese Support" proEuphie proved that Lelouch desperately needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work. And that Lelouch had enough time to realize that. But he killed Euphie anyway, proving that he was either evil, stupid, insane, or some combination. And every one who died and perished in Lelouch's rebellion died in vain because Lelouch killed Euphemia when he didn't need to and doomed it to certain eventual failure.


Once again, your emotionality clouds your judgment. Euphemia's death fueled the uprising, rather than doom it. The failure had nothing to do with those events. Not even Suzaku's actions, which were influenced by the Euphy-incident were amply modified to make a big difference, as he already chose his position before she died.
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Posted 8/18/10 , edited 8/18/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:


No. The massive Britannian military presence and Suzaku's presence did not save Euphemia the way things turned out.

But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops to hunt down the Japanese they might have protected her fine in Lelouch's plan two where he would make her shoot him. But if Euphemia did not scatter her troops and they remained massed at the stadium they might not only protect Euphie but defeat the Black knights when they arrived, ruining his plans to start a rebellion.

I suspect that for reasons of time Lelouch did not tell Euphie every order he planed to giver her. I suspect that Lelouch planned to give her detailed orders to shoot him and collect a bunch of Japanese prisoners to be kept near his "dead" body to be witnesses when he rose from the "dead" (how he planned that is not certain) while Euphemia would send most of her troops to hunt down the Japanese. Thus almost as many Japanese would have been slaughtered as in the actual Fuji Massacre, and Euphemia's troops would have been scattered and easy to defeat just as in the actual Fuji massacre.

In any case, there would be many possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie killed or captured by the revengeful Japanese, and many possible troop deployments which would result in the Black Knights being defeated and Euphemia safe and sound. But there should have been only a small set of possible troop deployments which would result in the Britannians being defeated and Euphie safe and sound. And the Britannaisn being defeated was necessary for Lelouch's plan to start well. As soon as Euphemia completed her geass task and returned to her normal self she would try to stop the fighting and risk her life. So Lelouch may have planned to giver her many orders to do many things to pour fuel on the fire instead of stopping the fight.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:The plan was simply a wound (check the series, it's mentioned specifically by Zero), and the Black Knights that were present were needed for a necessary extraction. Would a bloodbath occur, who knows? Mind you that the objective of this plot was to prevent the Black Knights from breaking apart, which would've effectively removed most of Zero's power, both ideological and military. Which is also more or less the only reason why Euphemia's family allowed her to pursue the special administrative region plan. Something that can be considered a very naive plan at best.


Did Lelouch tell anyone that he wanted the Black Knights to rescue him if there was any trouble? I don't remember that. I do remember him telling Euphie that when he rose from the dead it would prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah. So apparently Lelouch planned to be pronounced dead. Did Lelouch give geass command to each and every doctor and medic who might be in the stadium to falsely pronounce him dead? If he could do that so fast why not give the entire Britannian army at Fuji commands to join the rebellion and obey his orders as soon as he gave the signal?

Anyway, how did he plan to survive if he was shot by a princess and then came back to life in the middle of the Britannian Army in the stadium? Wouldn't every Britannian solider who saw that be enraged by his arrogant presumption, daring to come back to life after being killed by a member of the Imperial family? Wouldn't he be instantly shot thousands of times?

And how would the Black Knights rescue Zero after his resurrection without a battle?

Wouldn't all the Britannians want to unmask him, as much after he came back to life as when he was dead? What could keep the doctor who examined him to pronounce him dead from taking off his mask and revealing Lelouch's identity in a second?

How could the Black Knights arrive in time to save Zero if Zero pretended he didn't suspect anything until Euphie suddenly shot him? He wouldn't have time to call them for help in the second it would take her to whip out a gun and shoot him. And he couldn't move while lying on the ground "dead" before he came back to life. Did he have a voice-activated transmitter inside his mask he could operate without moving his body? And after public enemy # 1 Zero came back to life there would be all hell to pay. He could openly call for the Black Knights then without arousing suspicion, but could they possibly arrive in time to save him, with thousands of Britannians instinctively shooting at him?


Yuno_Gasai wrote:

I believe that Euphemia defeated her geass command and returned to her normal self right before Lelouch shot her, tens of thousands of times faster than Nunnally escaped from her blindness geass.


As nice as your belief may be, it's no more than that. She was shooting still with a machine gun when he found her and asked him whether he would not be so nice to help her out kill some Japanese. After she got picked up by Suzaku, her eyes were still redish, indicating throughout the entire show that a Geass is active, also asking at some point "Suzaku, aren't you Japanese?". Admitedly, yes, she doesn't kill him, but give the girl a break will ya. She is severely wounded and slowly bleeding out, after all, saying goodbye to her sweet knight. Though perhaps a little inconsistent with known Geass abilities and consequences, it is a given that dying main characters in anime always get a nice amount of, be it a bit agonizing, time to say their goodbyes and last words and make a nice exit. Any fan of anime wouldn't have it any other way. So any claim of her beating her Geass is therefore false, considering there is no evidence in favor, only evidence against such claims.


In every version of episode 23 I have seen Euphie 's machine gun jammed and she put a new clip in just as she recognized Zero and apologized for thinking he was Japanese. And she never fired it again. At that moment she still remembered her mission and was still effectively controlled by the geass. And then I believe her subconscious mind found a way to defeat her geass command and Euphemia emerged almost totally from the control of the geass command.

Euphie than asked Zero to help her administer the SAZ. Clearly she must have forgotten about the Geass command by then, which means that she must have almost totally escaped from it's control. then she frowned and said "No. that's not right" She seemed to vaguely remember that the SAZ plan had been ended. But obviously she did not clearly remember the massacre or she would have freaked out.

The geass command was still active, still fighting to regain control of her, so her eyes were still reddish.

You say that Euphie had to not try to kill Suzaku to have a typical anime death scene. Some other Code Geass characters also died. Did any of them have a similar death scene? If not, the series could have done without Euphie's death scene. But however much you in the real world may think that it was necessary for plot reasons for Euphie to have a tender death scene, in the fictional universe of Code Geass there must be a scientific or technical reason for everything that happens, especially inconsistencies such as Euphie not trying to kill Suzaku.

I point out that in Code Geass there must have been many alternate universes in which Suzaku arrived in time to save Euphie before Lelouch shot her. And there must be many alternate universes where Suzaku arrived only after Euphie was already dead, if at all. But statistically speaking, alternate universes in which Suzaku arrived right after Euphie was shot and carried her away from her vengeful enemies must be very rare. How do you think that Euphie would have died in the alternate universes in which Suzaku did NOT arrive in time to save her from being shot or just after she was shot? How do you think that Euphie would have died if things went the way Lelouch intended when he stalked her and pulled the trigger?

So perhaps the writers had Suzaku arrive to snatch Euphie away for a tender dying scene so that the audience would not hate Lelouch so much. If so, they opened up another can of worms.

Because Euphie's tender dying scene can only happen if she is freed from the control of the geass command. Since Euphie was still strong enough to kill Suzaku and/or other Japanese people the same way she had killed hundreds or thousands of others, the geass command could not possibly think that she was too weak to be worth taking control of.

A good explanation would be that the geass decided to obey Lelouch's vague command for only a short time and then stop, since it didn't know how much killing was intended. Thus the geass command might have naturally being shutting down at the time that Euphie was shot. This makes Lelouch seem really evil when he decided to kill Euphie, since his tests should have shown that subjects obeyed for only a short time whenever he gave vague commands.

The other obvious theory is that Euphemia defeated her geass command when it tried to take control of her in the Avalon sickbay. That is what the scene seems to show. And that makes Euphemia superhumanly good, since it is established that nobody Human can do what she did. It is a good thing for the consistency of Code Geass that it gives some clues as to how one of the characters could be superhuman. And that makes Lelouch seem really detestable for killing such a superhumanly good character.

When a character is as safe, as easy, and as fast to capture alive as Euphemia was, nothing the writers can do can possibly make killing her seem justified. That is logically impossible.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:Which brings me to this. Now truly, I was highly amused by this.



NO, it is not a moral code but a belief that scientifically and factually, life may suck but death is infinitely worse than even the most horrible tortures. Thus anyone who thinks that he is better off dead than alive has an irrational idea.


I am not aware as to what you consider as science, but I'm assuming it's the dictionary meaning, in which case your scientific claim is merely an attempt to add legitimacy to your point of view, as is done so often when convenient. However, there is no such proof based on scientific methods, as it is simply impossible to get data from what happens when you die (other than human impressions). Who knows, there might be an afterlife out there that's better. Science does not prove it, but also can't deny it (which is so great about science, cause you can never claim or deny anything without some form evidence upon which to base your theory, which can later be falsified if proven wrong). I also doubt your factual data claim, as you are still reading and typing and thus not dead (good for you). Life and death and the difference between them is part of religious and philosophical (at best) terrain, and thus mostly a moral opinion which you can either choose to accept or not. It is also highly doubtful that a terminally ill patient who's in quite a great deal of pain will agree with you, or someone who's most exciting moment of the day is when the nurse comes to feed him/her.

Suppose that there is an afterlife out there that is better than our present life? If you do not KNOW that one exists you have to assume the worst, that death is external nothingness, and so value life above all else. It is better to err on the side of caution than on the side of reckless abandon.

And I point out that religions which believe in an afterlife of eternal reward or punishment do NOT say that you should kill every good and innocent person you find, so that they will go to heaven immediately. If good and innocent people are left alive they might turn evil and go to hell. And every evil person you find should be kept alive at all costs to give you every chance to turn him good before he dies.

NO! Instead those religions say that in matters of life and death you should behave like a benevolent atheist who believes that death is THE END, and save the innocent and help them live as long as possible. And if it is ever right to kill someone, it would by executing evil people for their crimes, even though it may send them to hell.

Why those religions have those ethics I do not know, but simple observation shows that they do.

And I point out that those religions believe that their all powerful and all loving God does not simply make evil people evaporate into nothing when they die, but sends them to hell for eternal torture. To Humans, with experience of pain and pleasure and no experience with being dead, heaven seems infinitely better than hell, and even death and nothingness seems better than hell. But God who is said to be all knowing and all loving and all forgiving could simply send even the most evil people to heaven, or end their existence, but instead sends them to hell. This implies that in the eyes of God external pleasure and eternal pain are almost equally good, and both are infinitely better than death and nonexistence. The difference between heaven and hell probably means nothing to God, who probably put the torture in hell simply to impress humans with a difference which means so much to them.

And if heaven is really so much better than mortal life, God could simply send all good souls straight to heaven as soon as they are created, instead of giving them a mortal life first. This implies that living a finite mortal life and then going to heaven is somehow better than going straight to heaven. Which means that depriving someone of part of their mortal life, no matter how bad it may seem, and sending them to heaven prematurely is somehow harming them (to say nothing of sending them to hell prematurely).

So if you are a believing Jew, Christian, or Muslim, you will have to accept that you must act as if death was the worst fate possible.

If you care so much about the pain of terminally ill patients, perhaps you should stop advocating that they be allowed to die to escape their pain and start pushing for massive research to invent ways to give them great pleasure, much greater than their pain, which would make their last days much happier.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:So I can imagine you think any form of life over death is better, regardless of the circumstances. In any case, after the accident, Lelouch used the cards he was dealed perfectly. If he had done it any other way, there would have been problems, which would've been a waste of all the sacrifices (both intentional and unintentional) made that tragic day.


There were problems with the way Lelouch handled the cards. The Black Rebellion WAS crushed, which DID made all the deaths in it a tragic waste. Nina DID try to make a bomb in revenge for Euphemia's death, which DID lead to her joining the F.R.E.I.J.A. project in the second season and helping perfect it in time to kill tens of millions of people.

Prince Schneitzel, who seemed so noble in the first season, turned out to be an evil mass murderer at the end of the second season a year later. And perhaps he was good in the first season and the loss of any need to keep the respect of his kind sister Euphemia permitted him to follow his evil tendencies and become evil by the end of the second season, with all the dire results which followed. And who knows how many more people, especially Japanese, Cornelia killed between the seasons than she would have if Euphemia was still alive.

And the death of Euphemia turned Suzaku evil and ruthless and revengeful like Lelouch, and led to who knows what evils.

IN "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to Save the Japanese" proEuhie shows that the best way to stop the massacre fast was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre. By not even trying to do so Lelouch may have carelessly let tens, or hundreds or thousands, of Japanese die that he could have saved, and thus wasted their lives.

In "Did Lleouch kill Euphie to Gain Japanese Support?" proEuphie shows that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work and killed her anyway. Thus he doomed the Black Rebellion to eventual failure even if VV had not been sent to capture Nunnally and make it collapse sooner. Lelouch wasted every one's lives who were killed in the Black Rebellion.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:

Are you saying that if Lelouch captured Euphie and said she was innocent because she had been compelled by mind control, that would be exactly the same thing as ruining everything by admitting to the world that he had the power to give geass commands? That does not seem like a logical claim.


Yes, I do, as he would not only have to be able to explain the details of such mind control. He would also have to explain why he's so well informed about it. A dangerous precedent capable of endangering all previous accomplishments.



What previous accomplishments? What had Lelouch achieved, instead of starting to work toward achieving, by the time of the Black Rebellion?

Here is a paragraph:

"Euphemia is not guilty! There is an innocent child inside her body. One of the main reasons I fight Britannia is because of the secret Britannian plan to use mind control on all their subjects. Already they have used it on many individuals to make them obey evil Britannian commands. I saw Princess Euphemia struggling against some outside force which finally took over her body. Obviously some powerful Britannian leader wanted to sabotage the Special Admisitration Zone so much he would sacrifice a princess to do so. He thought that would crush your Japanese spirits, but instead it will rouse you to overthrow Britannia and make kindly Euphemia the new empress if she is ever freed from the mind control!":

Here is another paragraph:

"I, Zero have a power called Geass which I acquired from CC, a top secret prisoner of Britannia, which enables me to look people in the eyes and command them to do whatever I order, so long as it is possible for them to do it. When I was meeting with Euphemia my geass power turned on permanently and can't be shut off. When I told her i could make her do anything, even kill all the Japanese, it took it as an order and forced her to order this terrible massacre against her will."

Are those two paragraphs identical in meaning or appearance? Can you translate them into some language where they are identical in meaning? Not if you translate accurately.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:

Lelouch is so cold that he doesn't care about his own sister Euphemia, killing her for no good or decent or humane reason and for no evil, cruel, ruthless reason that make any practical sense.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Well, that's your opinion. I'm afraid you can hardly proclaim it as truth. There was more than one reason available. To be honest, I do not understand your extreme sympathy for the Euphemia character. What's so great about her? Yes, she seems nice and she wants to do the right thing. But aside from being incredibly naive, she's also a product of the royal family of Brittannia. What does she know about the real world, having grown up in the sheltered environment of Aries Imperial Villa? It's clear she knows nothing, as she is naive enough to believe another sort of special measure can be the solution to the problems in Japan. Hey everyone, let's all live together in some new sort of settlement where we will all be equal. It's a nice theory, but much like the honorary brittannian system, it's flawed in its practice. Enough indications are throughout the series how deep the superiority complex of the Brittiannians is. Hell, the opening episode set the tone perfectly. Hundreds of innocent people butchered by giant mechanical machines. Racism, contempt, discrimination and all of this justified by the imperial ideology. That, to me, makes every single citizen of Brittiannia an accomplice, in specific members of the court who have easier access to classified information. If Euphemia really was such a goody person as you perceive her to be, she would've done way more useful things, way sooner. How hard can it be in a world where everyone is trying to gain status at the court to get some things done when you're of royal blood?


Lelouch had many possible reasons to kill Euphemia. I said that he had no good, or decent, or humane reason to kill her.

I like Euphie because it was obvious from the first few episodes that she appeared in that Euphemia was by far the best character in all the cast. But even if she was as evil as any of the other characters, I should have objected to her murder when I saw how easy it was for Lelouch to capture her alive.

If some had a chance to easily and safely capture Hitler, or Stalin, or Chairman Mao alive, he would be evil if he killed him instead. The least criticism you could make was that he was greedy and hogged all the fun of killing him to himself, instead of letting all the millions of other people who hated Hitler, or Stalin, or Mao share in his death somehow, though their courts or by pressing millions of buttons that would give painful shocks to the hated one.. But even more, he would be guilty of murder if he killed anyone, no matter how evil, without any urgent necessity to do so.

Nobody can be good enough to be liked if they decide that they are going to murder people ten percent of the chances they have, or twenty five percent of the chances they have, or one percent of the chances they have. A person can only be good enough to like if they decide that they are never going to murder anybody any time they have a chance to. Not one tenth of one percent of the chances they have, not one millionth of a percent of the chances they have to murder, but never, ever, ever. Lelouch would not have murdered Euphemia if he was good enough to never murder anyone and thus good enough to be liked. And when someone is as wonderfully safe and easy to capture as Euphemia was, killing them is murder. Lelouch was not good enough to like. He was not good enough to be the protagonist of a television series.

You say that you have eliminated most or all of the Britannians from possissibly being good and decent people. What about the other main characters?

The Japanese can all be eliminated from any chance of being good people worth liking. Apparently they disapprove of terrorists but they do not make their disapproval felt strongly enough . In "Black Knight" it was revealed that some branches of the JLF committed terrorism. Thus all members of the JLF were evil if they had never tried to force the leadership to stop terrorism (and none was ever shown doing so) . All supporters of the JLF were evil because they did not withdraw their support when they found out about the terrorism practiced by some branches of the JLF. And nobody was shown doing so.

Since the JLF was the main anti-Britannian group, it certainly got a lot of funding from the Kyoto Group. And thus when the Black Knights began to get support from the Kyoto group and nobody complained that it was tainted by the Kyoto Group's support of the terrorists in the JLF, the members of the Black Knights became evil if they were not already evil. No cause can ever be good enough to be worth fighting for and supporting if terrorists also fight for it. If any of the Black Knights was innocent up to the Geass Directorate massacre, they became evil the instant they participated in the massacre or remained in the organization, believing that its goals could possibly be more important than the horror of the massacre.

As for Euphemia's achievements, go watch the episodes about the Battle of Narita again, and compare how the Britannians behave in that battle compared to other battles, and see how Euphemia's military ethics compare to those of every other character in the series.

quote]Yuno_Gasai [link url="/forumtopic-657639/did-lelouch-kill-euphie-to-gain-japanese-support/?fpid=33049323" title="View quoted post"

And yes Lelouch did fallibly doom his rebellion when he left to save his other sister Nunnally. But Lelouch also doomed his rebellion to fail earlier when he killed Euphemia for no reason that makes any sense. In "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to gain Japanese Support" proEuphie proved that Lelouch desperately needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work. And that Lelouch had enough time to realize that. But he killed Euphie anyway, proving that he was either evil, stupid, insane, or some combination. And every one who died and perished in Lelouch's rebellion died in vain because Lelouch killed Euphemia when he didn't need to and doomed it to certain eventual failure.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Once again, your emotionality clouds your judgment. Euphemia's death fueled the uprising, rather than doom it. The failure had nothing to do with those events. Not even Suzaku's actions, which were influenced by the Euphy-incident were amply modified to make a big difference, as he already chose his position before she died.


Euphemia's death did not fuel the uprising. The Fuji Massacre fueled the uprising. Euphemia's death so soon might have made many of the Japanese satisfied with their revenge and quit, while if she escaped they would still want to chase her. And for another reason Euphemia's death doomed the uprising to eventual failure. Even if VV had not been sent to kidnap Nunnally, the death of Euphemia meant that a vital part of Lelouch's plan would not work and the rebellion would be crushed sooner or later. ProEuphie demonstrated that in "Did Lelouch Kill Euphie to Gain Japanese Support?"
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infinitycubed wrote:

Did Lelouch Kill Euphie for Japanese support?

Part three of my ally proEuphie’s post # 376 in Euphemia’s Murder, in the Code Geass forum in Anime Forum.

"PART THREE;

And some people write that Lelouch killed Euphemia to:

3) Gain as much Japanese support as possible for his Black Rebellion.

But remember what I wrote above about killing Euphemia to save Japanese lives:

But no reason, no matter how holy, or noble, or strong, or compelling, for killing people or even a single person can ever be a sufficient justification unless:
A) Killing that person or persons is the only way to achieve the goal or purpose used as a justification for killing.
OR
B) Achieving the goal or purpose in question without killing would:
1) Be too difficult.
2) Be too slow.
3) Be too dangerous for the person(s) making the decision and/or for one or more persons that they want or have to protect.

C) And of course no justification for killing one or more persons can ever be valid or right unless it is sufficiently good.

While killing Euphemia to save Human lives could possibly satisfy Condition C, killing Euphemia to gain support for one's cause can never be holy, or noble, or strong, or compelling enough to satisfy condition C.

But assume that it could be justified to kill someone to gain more support for your cause. Then killing Euphemia to get Japanese support would be justified IF it ALSO satisfied Condition A or Condition B1 or Condition B2 or Condition B3.

A) If Lelouch captured Euphemia and made a speech saying that he had seen her be taken over by some kind of mind control, that could get him just as much Japanese support as killing Euphemia. He could say that someone high up at the Tokyo Government Center or even at Pendragon must have wanted to sabotage the SAZ plan so much that they brainwashed Euphemia and then remotely triggered her programming during the meeting with Zero. Euphemia was innocent of desiring to order the massacre but the Britannian soldiers were guilty of willingly obeying her orders as they had obeyed Cornelia's and Clovis's orders to massacre. And Britannian soldiers would continue to obey future orders to massacre until the time, perhaps decades in the future, when Euphemia was freed from her brainwashing or Britannia somehow found another person as good as her. Were they willing to wait until then and endure massacre after massacre, or did they want to rise up and overthrow Britannia's tyranny?

Such a speech would have got Lelouch about as much support as killing Euphemia and making the speech he did make. And by shifting the blame away from Euphemia it would make it harder for many of the Japanese to be satisfied with avenging the massacre by killing Euphemia and then just quitting the rebellion. The only way to avenge the massacre would be to find and kill whoever had brainwashed Euphemia. And since actually nobody in the Britannian government had brainwashed her, the Japanese would never find the guilty party and quit until Lelouch was ready to manufacture one for them.

Thus not killing Euphemia could get Lelouch just as much support from the Japanese as killing her. Thus killing Euphemia to gain Japanese support does not satisfy condition A.

And I already wrote above that killing Euphemia would not satisfy Condition B1 or Condition B2 or Condition B3.

And I should point out that:

1) The failure of the SAZ plan when the massacre started left rebellion as the only hope for more freedom for the Japanese.
2) Now that the JLF had been destroyed Zero and the Black Knights were the best bet to lead any rebellion.
3) Zero gained a lot of Japanese support by A) defeating the Britannians at Fuji Rescuing the surviving Japanese at Fuji, and C) leading the march to capture Tokyo.

And it is always better to have support you earned than support you have not earned. When the Black Knights reached Fuji the Britannians were widely scattered to hunt down Japanese survivors and it would take time to find and defeat all the Britannians. And at the start of episode 23 Euphemia had broadcast an order to kill Japanese people. It would take even more time to find and defeat all the Britannians who might be obeying that order elsewhere. The fastest way to save as many Japanese lives as possible was to capture Euphemia and use her as a hostage to try and stop the massacre(s) as soon as possible. Not trying to use Euphemia as a hostage may have condemned tens, or hundreds, or thousands of Japanese to death who could have been saved by using Euphemia as a hostage.

It is better to earn and deserve as much support as possible and use your propaganda to convince as many people as possible of the true fact that you have earned their support than to earn and deserve a lesser degree of support and then use your propaganda to deny reports that you did not do everything you possibly could to earn and deserve support. By killing Euphemia and not trying to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre(s) Lelouch may have let many Japanese be killed. And so he did not deserve as much support from the Japanese as he would have deserved if he had captured her and tried to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre(s).

And Lelouch knew that it was not absolutely certain that the enemy would react to each of his moves in a specific way. He knew that various possible enemy actions would change the course of the Black Rebellion drastically. And thus the amount of support he would need from the Japanese people would change drastically. In many situations he would get much more support than he needed even without killing Euphemia. And in many other situations he would need so much support that he could not possibly get enough support even by killing Euphemia. Only in a very few situations would killing Euphemia be both necessary and sufficient to get Lelouch the extra amount of support he needed.

Did Lelouch have a policy of "When in doubt, kill"? If so he was evil. Did Lelouch have a policy of killing everyone and anyone whose deaths might benefit his plans, even if there was only a slight probability that those deaths would benefit his plans, and even if there was a strong probability that those deaths would harm and even ruin his plans? If so Lelouch was evil, and senselessly evil.

And there was another reason why Lelouch should not have killed Euphemia to gain as much Japanese support as possible.

Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for the Black Rebellion to have even the slightest chance of succeeding.

In episode 24 Lelouch gloated to his confidante CC that once the rebels proclaimed Japanese Independence in the Tokyo Government Center the Emperor would have no choice but to come to meet Zero. Thus Lelouch revealed that an important part of his plan was the Emperor's visit. And Lelouch revealed that he had no plans to fight off the renewed Britannian invasions which would result instead of the Emperor's visit and that Japan would be ground into the dust in defeat, even with Lelouch in command.

In episode 21 Lelouch was working on plans for a coup. I call those his Plan One. I deduce that those plans probably included starting a violent incident that would start a revolt and marching from the site of the incident to Tokyo to capture the government center and proclaim independence and invite the Emperor to a visit. When the Emperor arrived Lelouch would spring his trap and take over Britannia, locate and eliminate all those who had conspired against his mother, and remake the world to his desire.

After Euphemia proposed the SAZ plan at the end of episode 21 Lelouch developed his Plan Two. I believe that it was very similar to his Plan One except that he substituted the opening ceremony of the SAZ for the time and place of the rebellion-sparking incident in his Plan One. In episode 22 Lelouch told Euphemia that he would make her shoot him which would start a riot to start his revolution and he would rise from the deed to prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah.

And after the massacre started Lelouch quickly started to follow his Plan Three. Since he had no time to plan it should have been only slightly different from his Plan Two.

If Lelouch's Plan Two had any provision for saving Euphemia from the fury of the Japanese -- by claiming that shooting him was not her fault because she had gone crazy, for example -- Lelouch could have adapted that method to his Plan Three. If Lelouch had such a plan to divert Japanese anger away from Euphie in his Plan Two, when the massacre started he would have noticed the Britannian soldiers were slaughtering the Japanese with great enthusiasm and realized there were a lot more shoulders to divert the Japanese hatred onto than in his previous Plan Two, making it easier to turn the Japanese anger away from the obviously insane or mind-controlled Euphemia and onto the Britannian soldiers who had obeyed her even when she was clearly insane or mind-controlled.

But Lelouch did not do so in his Plan Three, so he probably had nothing planned to protect Euphemia from the misdirected Japanese anger she would face in his Plan Two. Apparently Lelouch didn't care if Euphemia lived or died, or even wanted her dead. Either attitude is evil and disgusting.

Once Lelouch planned to lure the Emperor to a meeting in Tokyo he should have realized that he had to do everything possible to avoid scaring the Emperor away from the meeting. This meant that everything that Zero did had to be considered as propaganda to lull the Emperor into a false sense of security about the leader of the rebellion, as much or more than propaganda to gain Japanese support.

So Lelouch had to make the rebel leader seem like a great defender of the Japanese to gain Japanese support, while not appearing too frightening to the Britannians and especially the Emperor.

So Lelouch should have planned to have Zero, who had claimed to be the murderer of Prince Clovis, "killed" in some spectacular incident and replaced as masked leader of the Black Knights by Lelouch claiming to be someone who approved of Zero's goals but not of Zero's more extreme methods. This "new" leader would denounce the murder of Clovis and any other excessively violent deeds of Zero but praise all the good that Zero had done and vow to fight Britannia as hard as Zero but without resorting to terrorism or any atrocities.

Lelouch should have realized that the leader of the Black Knights had to seem as honorable, kind, and gullible as possible in order for the Emperor to feel it was safe to come, as well as seeming to be a great defender of the Japanese to keep Japanese support.

So Lelouch should have tried to keep Britannian deaths, especially civilian deaths, as low as possible. And he should have tried to keep Cornelia and especially Euphemia alive at all costs.

Lelouch should have known that if Euphemia was killed in the uprising the Emperor would suspect that she had been deliberately killed in the false belief that would hurt the Emperor, who actually did not love his children. Thus he would believe that the rebels and their leader really hated him and it would be suicidal for him to come to Japan for talks. So Lelouch's Plan Two should have had a provision to make certain that Euphemia escaped alive.

And when the massacre started Lelouch should not have thought: "Great! Now that Euphie started a massacre on live television I don't have to worry about harming Zero's reputation any more and can kill her like I want to." No, Lelouch should have remembered that anyone who knew Euphie even slightly, like her father, would find it hard to believe she would order a massacre. So they would suspect that the massacre story was a lie. They would think that the "live" television included prerecorded computer-generated images switched on at the right moment, such as a "routine" cut from one camera angle to another. Or they would think that some kind of mind control had been used on her, perhaps by Zero. General Darlton did ask "What did you do to her?" so probably a lot of other people actually suspected that Zero did something to Euphemia even without knowing about geass.

Lelouch should have believed, even after the massacre started, that if Euphie was killed, the Emperor would think "Thank goodness Zero killed Euphemia and revealed how much he hates me. Now I'll never be stupid enough to go to meet him."

Lelouch should have known that if he killed Euphemia the Emperor would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to come to Japan and his plan would be tens, or hundreds, or thousands, of times less likely to work. Lelouch saw how easy it would have been to capture Euphemia alive. But he killed Euphemia anyway.

So Lelouch seems to have believed that since he wanted the Emperor to walk into his trap the Emperor would certainly walk into his trap and he didn't have to worry about scaring the Emperor away. So he killed Euphemia and thus doomed his plan to fail even if VV had not been sent to kidnap Nunnally.

So Lelouch seems to have been a homicidal maniac in Episodes 21 to 25 -- and perhaps many more episodes.

I am really shocked and disgusted by all the expressions of sorrow for Lelouch's death that some people write. They remind me of Kaguya adoring Lelouch so soon after he senselessly murdered Euphemia.


Thus I show that:
1) Euphemia did not have to die to save the Japanese from her.
2) Euphemia did not have to die to save her from a life worse than death.
3) Euphemia did not have to die to gain Lelouch a necessary and sufficient amount of support from the Japanese. In fact, Euphemia had to survive for Lelouch's plan to succeed. Lelouch had to save Euphemia or fail.

Thus there was no good and humane reason to kill Euphemia, or even an evil reason that made any sense. And a lot of good and humane, and sensible and pragmatic, reasons to save Euphemia."

End of quote from proEuphie.

Thus my ally proEuphie seems to have proven that none of the main reasons usually given why Lelouch killed Euphemia were good, decent, or humane reasons. And none of the evil, brutal, ruthless, cruel reasons usually given make any sense for practical reasons. In fact proEuphie has proven that Lelouch could not possibly have had a motive for killing Euphemia that made any practical sense.


Cubed, you can post all 3 parts in just one thread.
Posted 8/23/10 , edited 8/23/10

Did Lelouch tell anyone that he wanted the Black Knights to rescue him if there was any trouble? I don't remember that. I do remember him telling Euphie that when he rose from the dead it would prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah. So apparently Lelouch planned to be pronounced dead. Did Lelouch give geass command to each and every doctor and medic who might be in the stadium to falsely pronounce him dead? If he could do that so fast why not give the entire Britannian army at Fuji commands to join the rebellion and obey his orders as soon as he gave the signal?


The exact words were something like "hovering between life and death". So once again, I'm telling you there was no plan to be pronounced dead. The facts of the anime prove this. Stop ignoring them to your own convenience. The rest of this quote is pure nonsense.
Then there's more hypothetical, based-on-nothing stuff which are somewhat deduced from your first error in logic.



He could openly call for the Black Knights then without arousing suspicion, but could they possibly arrive in time to save him, with thousands of Britannians instinctively shooting at him?


Considering both were alone, with nobody being able to hear them at all and Lelouch wounded (not pretending to be dead), he could easily message his allies to rush in and extract him, while Euphemia were still under his Geass. As you have seen in the anime, the Brittannian troops around the stadium were easily defeated by the Black Knights. Which is also why there is a scene where several Black Knights are wondering why their entire force is lying in ambush.


NO! Instead those religions say that in matters of life and death you should behave like a benevolent atheist who believes that death is THE END, and save the innocent and help them live as long as possible. And if it is ever right to kill someone, it would by executing evil people for their crimes, even though it may send them to hell.

Why those religions have those ethics I do not know, but simple observation shows that they do.


Actually, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, all religions, picture an afterlife. This is merely to provide an answer to the scary issue of death and the end of your life. They picture an afterlife, cause that gives hope and makes death less scary, while simultaneously they also (in general) offer a moral justification of inequality in the existing world. It is a self serving principle, as good people (the ones that follow religious guidelines) will be rewarded and bad ones (even if they have a good life now) will be punished. Even I know that, and I am what is commonly called an atheist, while I believe that it is highly likely that only nothingness awaits us after our final breath.

So...



So if you are a believing Jew, Christian, or Muslim, you will have to accept that you must act as if death was the worst fate possible.


This is simply wrong. You fail to grasp the purpose and meaning of the concept that is religion.
Also, since you're not elaborating on my accusation of you utilizing pseudoscience, you clearly agree on that part.



If you care so much about the pain of terminally ill patients, perhaps you should stop advocating that they be allowed to die to escape their pain and start pushing for massive research to invent ways to give them great pleasure, much greater than their pain, which would make their last days much happier.


I don't really know what this is doing here (since it's not relevant to the issue)... But I believe anyone should have the right to do with his/her life whatever he/she wants to. And if they want to end it cause they can't beat it, then that's their decision. I'm not arrogant enough to pose that I have the right to interfere in their desire. That's just my personal opinion.


There were problems with the way Lelouch handled the cards. The Black Rebellion WAS crushed, which DID made all the deaths in it a tragic waste. Nina DID try to make a bomb in revenge for Euphemia's death, which DID lead to her joining the F.R.E.I.J.A. project in the second season and helping perfect it in time to kill tens of millions of people.

Prince Schneitzel, who seemed so noble in the first season, turned out to be an evil mass murderer at the end of the second season a year later. And perhaps he was good in the first season and the loss of any need to keep the respect of his kind sister Euphemia permitted him to follow his evil tendencies and become evil by the end of the second season, with all the dire results which followed. And who knows how many more people, especially Japanese, Cornelia killed between the seasons than she would have if Euphemia was still alive.


Yes, the black rebellion failed, alas (or maybe not, or there might not have been a second season this awesome). However, it is common for human beings not to be able to predict the future, and thus things happen that are later deemed pointless. Then again, following this logic, Lelouch would've done nothing if he knew the outcome. It is pointless to discuss whether or not actions leading to a future event had any value afterwards (only if this action will be repeated, like production processes etc, but that's of a totally different order). The analysis of the actions taken at the time with the information known at the time is what's the point here. It's quite funny how you're trying to shove the creation of FLEIA and the consequences of its use, together with all bad things Schneizel did on Lelouch though. You clearly did not pay much attention upon watching the series. Schneizel is just a fraud, someone who poses great but is in fact a giant douche hypocrite. Several references in Season one point out that he is actively gaining power, to eventually challenge his father (quote of the big bad emperor : "He can challenge me if he thinks he's read", season 1). So no, Schneizel is not corrupted. He was simply saw several opportunities.
As for Nina, well, she reminds me of you a bit. The obsession over some doll princess who knows nothing and is naive as hell. I do hope you're not doing what she was doing in a certain episode of season one, staring at a picture of said princess, and sorta ending up almost getting caught by Nunally. Wanting to blow up everything in a few kilometers radius also doesn't help to prove your sanity. If anything, it was Schneizel that got her to do the FLEIA project, as she was already working on the theory before her "Goddess" (literally said like this by her several times ffs) ended up the way she did.



And the death of Euphemia turned Suzaku evil and ruthless and revengeful like Lelouch, and led to who knows what evils.


Hah, Suzaku. Aside from Nina, who really is the most annoying individual of the series (well, perhaps that one guy with his female guard in nightmares beats her, but he dies so that makes up for it), Suzaku is second. Not so much because he always ends up messing up Lelouch's genius plans, but more because he does everything he does for exactly the wrong reasons. He doesn't mind himself getting pushed around, accepting the discriminatory policies of the empire. How much of a fool/douche can you be, honestly. Sure, something snapped a bit when Euphemia died. It developed his character further, made the series very exciting and eventually lead to him joining forces with Lelouch at the very end (blabla, not the world Euphy wanted, cry cry).


IN "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to Save the Japanese" proEuhie shows that the best way to stop the massacre fast was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre. By not even trying to do so Lelouch may have carelessly let tens, or hundreds or thousands, of Japanese die that he could have saved, and thus wasted their lives.

In "Did Lleouch kill Euphie to Gain Japanese Support?" proEuphie shows that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work and killed her anyway. Thus he doomed the Black Rebellion to eventual failure even if VV had not been sent to capture Nunnally and make it collapse sooner. Lelouch wasted every one's lives who were killed in the Black Rebellion.


Wrong. All your beloved proEuphie does is create theories on what could have happened if the creators of the series did it differently. The massacre was stopped asap due to the intervention of the Black Knights. Going around negotiating wouldn't exactly be a quick strategy, nor would it be a wise one. Lelouch didn't need a live Euphemia at all. I understand why you would think this. There was no part to play for her whatsoever, other than taking the blame of something.

So, yes, Lelouch killed Euphemia. Too bad? Yes, sure. Necessary? Absolutely. The decision made by Lelouch at that time was the best possible one. Yes, the Geass could've worn off eventually after a year or so imprisonment, or there would've been the Geass canceler. However, none of that information was known to any of the players at that time, so it's logical that this option was not considered. As for beating the Geass, there was no evidence whatsoever, only evidence supporting the contrary hypothesis.
Why did Lelouch kill Euphemia? Because it was the best possible action to take given the circumstances. In order not to let that unfortunate massacre happen in vain, he had to use this event, where the death of the instigator of the massacre was the best course of action. Not only for said instigator, who would've had a hard time if any of those rioting people got a hold of her. All in all, it's too bad she had to die like that. It wasn't pretty. But then, so was the death of several other main characters. Shirley's death, for instance, was much more tragic than that of Euphemia. It's simply how the story unfolded. Trying to change that in your head by applying the multi-verse theory on an anime series is just pointless. It hasn't even been proven for the real world, let alone that it would be proven for imaginary ones. This is the world we deal with, and this Code Geass series is the one we have (fortunately, I wouldn't have been able to stand an entire series full of Euphemia naive sweetness).



Lelouch would not have murdered Euphemia if he was good enough to never murder anyone and thus good enough to be liked. And when someone is as wonderfully safe and easy to capture as Euphemia was, killing them is murder. Lelouch was not good enough to like. He was not good enough to be the protagonist of a television series.


Good thing you don't have a say in the creation of television series then. Lelouch's characteristics were clearly distinguishable in the first episode, where he uses Geass to kill that group of aggressors. At least he's not afraid to do what he deems necessary. Furthermore, he does kill randomly. All deaths related to him are simply a necessary step in his plans. So was Euphemia's. Lelouch was gray from the start, a genius strategist who had the guts to stand up for his desires and beliefs, and those of others.


You say that you have eliminated most or all of the Britannians from possissibly being good and decent people. What about the other main characters?

The Japanese can all be eliminated from any chance of being good people worth liking. Apparently they disapprove of terrorists but they do not make their disapproval felt strongly enough . In "Black Knight" it was revealed that some branches of the JLF committed terrorism. Thus all members of the JLF were evil if they had never tried to force the leadership to stop terrorism (and none was ever shown doing so) . All supporters of the JLF were evil because they did not withdraw their support when they found out about the terrorism practiced by some branches of the JLF. And nobody was shown doing so.

Since the JLF was the main anti-Britannian group, it certainly got a lot of funding from the Kyoto Group. And thus when the Black Knights began to get support from the Kyoto group and nobody complained that it was tainted by the Kyoto Group's support of the terrorists in the JLF, the members of the Black Knights became evil if they were not already evil. No cause can ever be good enough to be worth fighting for and supporting if terrorists also fight for it. If any of the Black Knights was innocent up to the Geass Directorate massacre, they became evil the instant they participated in the massacre or remained in the organization, believing that its goals could possibly be more important than the horror of the massacre.


That's the whole point. Nobody is black or white, just as it is in the real world. All you do is think in terms of good and bad, two extremes which can hardly be applied to anyone, ever. Nobody in this entire show is black or white. Not even Nunally. Remember, she pushes the button of FLEIA during the final battle, which can be considered a positive act as she refuses to stand by the sidelines and do nothing. Even though the series lacks a clear bad guys - good guys distinction, what is clear is that the Brittannian empire is as black as it gets. If I were being ruled by such a behemoth, I would definitely join the Black Knights in trying to change the world. Justified massacres of civilians by a discriminating, violent ideology. Sure, the Black Knights did questionable things, like the annihilation of the Order. Didn't look pretty, and yet it was a necessary part of their plans. Don't stare yourself blind on the individual action, keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind.
People doing nothing, standing idle when an injustice is being committed, while they have the power and ability to intervene and stop it are as guilty as the people committing the crime.



As for Euphemia's achievements, go watch the episodes about the Battle of Narita again, and compare how the Britannians behave in that battle compared to other battles, and see how Euphemia's military ethics compare to those of every other character in the series.


Euphemia's achievements were non existent there. All she did was allow Suzaky to head out and that's just about it. She was actually manipulated by him (she read his lips, forming Euphy, thus making a decision based on emotion rather than reason, which is one of the biggest mistakes you can make during a battle).

To end this, cause I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again in a thread that's not even supposed to handle said issue, I will simply say this. Euphemia was a nice character, the perfectly naive, overly protected, pretty and innocentlike princess character of the series. She played her part in the events that unfolded, and it was a considerable one. None of the people watching Code Geass will have probably seen it coming, the massacre and Euphemia's death, much like many other events in the series, which is a big part of the strength of it. It's what makes it absolutely fabulous, comparable to Death Note when it comes to the mental constructions and plans.
As for the survival of Lelouch, which you do not desire and which is what this thread is about, well, too bad for you I suppose. The Lelouch Lives Theory is pretty solid, and has tons of evidence supporting it. I guess you'll just have to deal with the fact that the creators of the show intended it to be like this, and accept the death of Euphemia and the survival of Lelouch (becoming the warlock CC always wanted). Perhaps you can get over your Euphemia obsession in the process, so you don't end up like Nina. I sincerely hope so, for your sake.
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Posted 8/23/10 , edited 8/25/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:


Did Lelouch tell anyone that he wanted the Black Knights to rescue him if there was any trouble? I don't remember that. I do remember him telling Euphie that when he rose from the dead it would prove to the Japanese that he was their true messiah. So apparently Lelouch planned to be pronounced dead. Did Lelouch give geass command to each and every doctor and medic who might be in the stadium to falsely pronounce him dead? If he could do that so fast why not give the entire Britannian army at Fuji commands to join the rebellion and obey his orders as soon as he gave the signal?


[

Yuno_Gasai wrote:red]The exact words were something like "hovering between life and death". So once again, I'm telling you there was no plan to be pronounced dead. The facts of the anime prove this. Stop ignoring them to your own convenience. The rest of this quote is pure nonsense.
Then there's more hypothetical, based-on-nothing stuff which are somewhat deduced from your first error in logic.


The words I remember Lelouch saying were that when he rose from the dead it would prove to the Japanese that he and not Euphie was their true messiah. Unless you are fluent in Japanese we can argue about various translations whatever the original said.


He could openly call for the Black Knights then without arousing suspicion, but could they possibly arrive in time to save him, with thousands of Britannians instinctively shooting at him?



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Considering both were alone, with nobody being able to hear them at all and Lelouch wounded (not pretending to be dead), he could easily message his allies to rush in and extract him, while Euphemia were still under his Geass. As you have seen in the anime, the Brittannian troops around the stadium were easily defeated by the Black Knights. Which is also why there is a scene where several Black Knights are wondering why their entire force is lying in ambush.


What! Are you claiming that Lelouch's plan was to make Euphie shoot him in the privacy of the G1?

I suppose you think he would make her chase him around the G1 yelling that she was going to shoot him while he was on his cell phone calling to the Black Knights to save him. So the Black Knights would rush up and surround the G1 and then what? How coudl they rescue Zero without a bloody fight if he was lying wounded inside teh g1 and Euphemia didn't want to unlock the doors and maybe was ordering her soldiers to drive them away?

I don't see how the Black Knights could have rescued Lelouch from the G1 without killing him and/or Euphy and/or starting a massive battle that would have slaughtered thousands of Japanese bystanders before they could flee. Unless Lelouch planned to give orders to Euphie that would make her release Zero's body to the Black Knights as soon as they arrived. But if Euphie negotiated reasonably that would make her seem more reasonable and diminish the effect of her act. Many Japanese believe in revenge for injuries, such as as murdering your brother Clovis, for example, and might not be able to hate Euphie too much for taking revenge for Clovis. They would consider that she had understandably given in to her urge for revenge and then regained her rationality enough to bargin with the Black Knights for the release of Zero.

Many Britannians would respect Euphie more for trying to get bloody revenge. Some Japanese, agreeing with you, might say that made her a better leader to follow than the impossibly, perfectly, good and innocent girl she had seemed before. That might make the SAZ plan more successful.

I always thought that Lelouch planned to have Euphemia shoot him on the stage in front of thousands of witnesses. Euphie said that shooting Zero would start a riot and he said that would start his revolution. That certainly sounded like Lleouch planned to be shot in public for dramatic effect and that the Japanese would start rioting immediately and be rescued from the Britanians by the Black Knights.



NO! Instead those religions say that in matters of life and death you should behave like a benevolent atheist who believes that death is THE END, and save the innocent and help them live as long as possible. And if it is ever right to kill someone, it would by executing evil people for their crimes, even though it may send them to hell.

Why those religions have those ethics I do not know, but simple observation shows that they do.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Actually, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, all religions, picture an afterlife. This is merely to provide an answer to the scary issue of death and the end of your life. They picture an afterlife, cause that gives hope and makes death less scary, while simultaneously they also (in general) offer a moral justification of inequality in the existing world. It is a self serving principle, as good people (the ones that follow religious guidelines) will be rewarded and bad ones (even if they have a good life now) will be punished. Even I know that, and I am what is commonly called an atheist, while I believe that it is highly likely that only nothingness awaits us after our final breath.

So...


Reducing people's fear of death and making them want to be good for an eternal reward may have been the reasons why hypothetical hypocritical religious teachers may have come up with the idea of an an afterlife. But countless millions and billions of religious believers have believed in the afterlife they were taught by their elders and passed on that beleif to the younger generations. Thus for the vast majority of beleivers believing in the afterlife had the purpose of believing in something that they believed was true.

The purpose of changing the feelings and behavior of people in this life is a comparatively minor purpose of religious belief in the afterlife in the eyes of the vast majority of believers, while non believers rarely try to spread religious beliefs such as the afterlife. They think that would make them hypocrites, such as the hypothetical hypocritical religious leaders who you and I believe invented the idea of an afterlife.


So if you are a believing Jew, Christian, or Muslim, you will have to accept that you must act as if death was the worst fate possible.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:This is simply wrong. You fail to grasp the purpose and meaning of the concept that is religion.
Also, since you're not elaborating on my accusation of you utilizing pseudoscience, you clearly agree on that part.



If you care so much about the pain of terminally ill patients, perhaps you should stop advocating that they be allowed to die to escape their pain and start pushing for massive research to invent ways to give them great pleasure, much greater than their pain, which would make their last days much happier.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:I don't really know what this is doing here (since it's not relevant to the issue)... But I believe anyone should have the right to do with his/her life whatever he/she wants to. And if they want to end it cause they can't beat it, then that's their decision. I'm not arrogant enough to pose that I have the right to interfere in their desire. That's just my personal opinion.



There were problems with the way Lelouch handled the cards. The Black Rebellion WAS crushed, which DID made all the deaths in it a tragic waste. Nina DID try to make a bomb in revenge for Euphemia's death, which DID lead to her joining the F.R.E.I.J.A. project in the second season and helping perfect it in time to kill tens of millions of people.

Prince Schneitzel, who seemed so noble in the first season, turned out to be an evil mass murderer at the end of the second season a year later. And perhaps he was good in the first season and the loss of any need to keep the respect of his kind sister Euphemia permitted him to follow his evil tendencies and become evil by the end of the second season, with all the dire results which followed. And who knows how many more people, especially Japanese, Cornelia killed between the seasons than she would have if Euphemia was still alive.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Yes, the black rebellion failed, alas (or maybe not, or there might not have been a second season this awesome). However, it is common for human beings not to be able to predict the future, and thus things happen that are later deemed pointless. Then again, following this logic, Lelouch would've done nothing if he knew the outcome. It is pointless to discuss whether or not actions leading to a future event had any value afterwards (only if this action will be repeated, like production processes etc, but that's of a totally different order). The analysis of the actions taken at the time with the information known at the time is what's the point here.


You mean a terriblel season, full of battles, murders, lies, doublecrossess, and the unnecessary slaughter of millions.

So Lelouch did not not know that the Emperor was watching him and would send VV to kidnap Nunnally and caause the Black rebellion to fail. That is not important to the reasoning here.

You have not read proEuphie's arguement carefully if you do not see that Lelouch expected the Emperor to come to Japan to meet Zero and thus be trapped, and if you don't realize that killing Euphemia would certainly scare the Emperor away from the meeting. Instead he would send his armies to crush Japan, despite the efforts of Lelouch. Lelouch would be like the Hannibal of Japan, except that the utter ruin would take just months or years in this case.

With the information available to Lelouch he should have known that Killing Euphie would ruin his plans. But after killing her he still gloated to CC that the Emperor would fall into his trap.

quote]Yuno_Gasai wrote: It's quite funny how you're trying to shove the creation of FLEIA and the consequences of its use, together with all bad things Schneizel did on Lelouch though. You clearly did not pay much attention upon watching the series. Schneizel is just a fraud, someone who poses great but is in fact a giant douche hypocrite. Several references in Season one point out that he is actively gaining power, to eventually challenge his father (quote of the big bad emperor : "He can challenge me if he thinks he's read", season 1). So no, Schneizel is not corrupted. He was simply saw several opportunities.


So you say that Schneitzel was already evil in the first season and you use as evidence that he was aiming to overthrow Emperor Charles! Wouldn't that make everyone else aiming to overthrow Emperor Charles just as evil as Schneitzel? Including Lelouch? Find evidence that Schneitzel did something more evil in the first season than aiming to overthrow Emperor Charles -- which would seem to be a natural result of the competition to succeed the Empereor which the Emperor Himself encouraged -- or admit there is no evidence that Scneitzel was already evil in the first season. I say that it is quite likely that his desire to keep the love and respect of Euphemia kept Schenitzel from following most of his evil desires until she was murdered and he took part in a cover up which smeared her good name and felt that he had gone too far on the road to evil to turn back.

quote]Yuno_Gasai wrote:As for Nina, well, she reminds me of you a bit. The obsession over some doll princess who knows nothing and is naive as hell. I do hope you're not doing what she was doing in a certain episode of season one, staring at a picture of said princess, and sorta ending up almost getting caught by Nunally. Wanting to blow up everything in a few kilometers radius also doesn't help to prove your sanity. If anything, it was Schneizel that got her to do the FLEIA project, as she was already working on the theory before her "Goddess" (literally said like this by her several times ffs) ended up the way she did.

I was not a big fan of Euphemia during most of the first season. I merely thought that she was by far the most good and noble character in the series.

My rage and fury is due to the obvious fact that Lelouch murdered Euphemia when it was wonderfully, fantastically easy for him to capture her alive. He had a one in a million, a one in a billion, chance to capture her alive and didn't take it.

If he was right to kill her in those circumstances we all should not be alive. We are all descended from countless people who had children AFTER being captured alive when it was much harder and more dangerous for the captors to capture them than it was to kill them, and much harder and more dangerous than it would have been for Lelouch to capture Euphemia. If Lelouch was a good person and not an evil murderer then all those people who captured our ancestors instead of killing them were fools and they should have killed our ancestors and we should never have been born.

That is why the mere thought of anyone having any liking for respect for Lelouch is disgusting to me, that is why I lost all respect for Lelouch after I saw him kill Euphemia when it was so easy to capture her,

That is why I obsessed with Code Geass and Euphemia and that is why I noticed all the things about Euphemia that I now admire. It was because of the outrageously unnecessary murder of her and the continued admiration of him by millions of fans that I obsessed about the murder and after that came to see the things about Euphemia which now make her like many times more than I did before her murder. If she had survived to the end of the series to have some kind of happy ending I might not have noticed everything about her which makes me believe she should have been the protagonist.

I was never obsessed with Euphie the way Nina was with her or like Kaguya was with Zero. I can never forget the scene in which Kaguya adored Zero so soon after he had senselessly murdered Euphemia. And that is who the vast majority of Code Geass fans remind me of, creepy Kaguya obsessing over Lelouch..

I think that in the second season Lloyd and Nnia discussed her attempt to blow up millions in revenge for Euphemia, using it as a proof of her expertise, when she was hired for the project, and that Nina was necessary for the success of the project just in time to kill tens of millions in the wars of the second season.


And the death of Euphemia turned Suzaku evil and ruthless and revengeful like Lelouch, and led to who knows what evils.


[

Yuno_Gasai wrote:red]Hah, Suzaku. Aside from Nina, who really is the most annoying individual of the series (well, perhaps that one guy with his female guard in nightmares beats her, but he dies so that makes up for it), Suzaku is second. Not so much because he always ends up messing up Lelouch's genius plans, but more because he does everything he does for exactly the wrong reasons. He doesn't mind himself getting pushed around, accepting the discriminatory policies of the empire. How much of a fool/douche can you be, honestly. Sure, something snapped a bit when Euphemia died. It developed his character further, made the series very exciting and eventually lead to him joining forces with Lelouch at the very end (blabla, not the world Euphy wanted, cry cry).


Of course I don't think all Zero's plans show such genius anyway, nor do I think that messing them up so bad.

So you think that Suzaku's plan of Joining Britaannia and eventually reforming it was less likely to succeed than joining some violent revolt which almost always fails.

Suppose that by time travel you met a Russian boy Suzaku's age in 1977 whose ambition was to join the Communist Party and in about forty years or around 2017 be a top leader and do all he could to make the USSR a freer country with democracy, civil rights, and a better economic system . Would you think that his plan was doomed to fail, that it had no possible chance of working?

Suppose that in 1897 you met an Austrian boy Suzaku's age whose ambition was to join the army or the bureaucracy and work his way up to a top position in about forty years or around 1937 when he would work to extend the right to vote to everyone, not just the rich and the middle class. Would you think that his ambition was hopelessly over optimistic?

Suppose that in 1857 you met an American boy Suzaku's age, an avid supporter of the Republican Party, whose ambition was to rise in the party ranks and become a top leader in about forty years, or around 1897, and then use all his influence to keep the party committed to the gradual but complete abolition of slavery, which he hoped to see in his lifetime. Would you think that he was being wildly optimistic about his chances of ending slavery in his lifetime?

Suppose that in 257 AD, you met a Balkan peasant boy Suzaku's age who was going to join the Roman army. Suppose that his ambition was to rise into the ranks until he commanded an entire legion and his salary, bribes, and loot would make him wealthy enough to enrich his family and fellow villagers. Would you think that he didn't have a chance of rising that high because the proud senators would never allow a lowly peasant to command?

In the first seaon Suzaku was a pleasant contrast to Lelouch. In the second season Suzaku was a cheap imitation, a would be Lelouch. That is not a very good character development, diluting the difference between the two main characters..

I think that Suzaku would have been a lot more likely to join up with Lelouch if he hadn't seen him senselessly murder Euphemia.


IN "Did Lelouch kill Euphie to Save the Japanese" proEuhie shows that the best way to stop the massacre fast was to capture Euphemia and try to use her as a hostage to stop the massacre. By not even trying to do so Lelouch may have carelessly let tens, or hundreds or thousands, of Japanese die that he could have saved, and thus wasted their lives.

In "Did Lleouch kill Euphie to Gain Japanese Support?" proEuphie shows that Lelouch needed a live Euphemia for his plan to work and killed her anyway. Thus he doomed the Black Rebellion to eventual failure even if VV had not been sent to capture Nunnally and make it collapse sooner. Lelouch wasted every one's lives who were killed in the Black Rebellion.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Wrong. All your beloved proEuphie does is create theories on what could have happened if the creators of the series did it differently. The massacre was stopped asap due to the intervention of the Black Knights. Going around negotiating wouldn't exactly be a quick strategy, nor would it be a wise one. Lelouch didn't need a live Euphemia at all. I understand why you would think this. There was no part to play for her whatsoever, other than taking the blame of something.


How can you say that the massacre was stopped as soon as possible? The massacre started in the stadium. The surviving Japanese ran in all directions. The Britannians had to chase them in all directions to continue it. Thus the Japanese and the soldiers became two concentric expanding circles, and the Brittanians became more and more spread out.

If there ware any other Britannains in sight of Euphie they would have rushed in to rescue her when her knightmare was destroyed but she survived. If there were any brittanians is sight of Euphemia they would have shot down Zero the moment they saw him get out of his knightmare. So there weren't any Britannians around to send a message that Euphie had been shot, a message which might have ended the massacre sooner or made it worse or had no effect.

With the Britannians so spread out finding them and defeating them one by one would take a lot of time during which a lot of Japanese would be killed. But capturing Euphemia and going on the radio to use her has a hostage might have stopped the massacre much sooner. And what about all the massacres miles and miles away which might have been started by Euphie's broadcast at the beginning of episode 23? Using her as a hostage could stop the massacres a lot faster than defeating the Britannians.

Lelouch needed a live Euphemia in order to seem safe enough for the Emperor to fall into his trap and meet him. Nobody who knew Euphemia would believe she had ordered the massacre even with videotape. Like General Darlton, they would wonder what Zero had done to her. Lelouch should have expected that killing Euphie would scare the Emperor away from his trap.



No. Episode 23 shows that there was absolutely no immediate military necessity to kill Euphemia. It shows that capturing her alive as soon as her knightmare was destroyed would have been faster, easier, and safer for Lelouch than killing her the way he did. Capturing her and using her as a hostage to stop the massacre would be safer for all the widely scattered Japanese who could not be found and protected very fast by the Black Knights. Killing the beloved sister of the enemy general before victory is asking for trouble for your people. Killing the girlfriend of the enemy's top warrior before final victory is asking for trouble for your people.

Lelouch had no immediate necessity to kill Euphemia. Killing someone for any reason other than immediate necessity is murder.

Lelouch could not be confident that there was no way to undo a geass command. But he didn't even bother to ask his expert CC. The longest time that any of Lelouch's geass commands was shown onscreen to control someone was two years or less. At the time of Fuji, Lelouch had no experience of geass commands controlling someone for more than a few weeks or months. And he had seen Suzaku's similarly vague command to survive wear off in a few days.

And episode 23 shows the geass try to regain control in the sickbay and not succeed, and later Euphie is still strong enough to kill Suzaku the way she killed hundreds or thousands of other people. The geass command could not possibly think that she was too weak to kill that way and thus abandon trying to control her. That leaves Euphemia defeating the geass command as the most logical explanation why she wasn't controlled by it.l



Why do you assume that after Lelouch decided to accept the SAZ plan, the massacre would make resuming rebellion the best plan for him? Certainly he had to stop the massacre, and using Euphemia as a hostage was the way to stop it fastest. But then the Black Knights should have simply left while Lelouch decided what he wanted to do instead of instantly deciding to resume rebellion.

How can you say that being killed now was for Euphie better than possibly, NOT certainly, being killed more roughly later? And just how would Euphie have died if things went as Lelouch expected, if Suzaku did NOT unexpectedly come along to snatch her up right after Lelouch shot her? That was a big surprise for Lelouch. And If Zero had captured Euphemia and used her as a hostage to stop the massacre, then told the Japanese that they were now honor bound to keep her safe and unharmed, that would have really fooled the Emperor into thinking it would be safe to meet Zero.

Shirley's death was much less tragic than Euphemia's. Unlike Shirley, Euphemia was the only political leader in the world who was good enough to offer any real hope. Even after the geass command made the total of her goals thousands or millions of times more evil, her total goals were still far better than those of any other character. She was the only hope for the world of Code Geass. When she died, hope died. The Zero Requiem was the pathetic substitute for a happy ending.

In a series full of Euphemia all the other characters would have made a sharp contrast to her goodness and it would not have been overpowering. I'm not sure that even Euphie would dilute their disgusting evil enough to make the second season bearable.


Lelouch would not have murdered Euphemia if he was good enough to never murder anyone and thus good enough to be liked. And when someone is as wonderfully safe and easy to capture as Euphemia was, killing them is murder. Lelouch was not good enough to like. He was not good enough to be the protagonist of a television series.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:Good thing you don't have a say in the creation of television series then. Lelouch's characteristics were clearly distinguishable in the first episode, where he uses Geass to kill that group of aggressors. At least he's not afraid to do what he deems necessary. Furthermore, he does kill randomly. All deaths related to him are simply a necessary step in his plans. So was Euphemia's. Lelouch was gray from the start, a genius strategist who had the guts to stand up for his desires and beliefs, and those of others.


Then my plans to make a lot of television may scare you. No, Lelouch didn't have more than a second to think of what to order when the soldiers were about to shoot him. Thus it was not clear if he would have commanded them to obey all his orders for the rest of their lives if he had more time to think. I liked him too much and kept making excuses for his crimes until he killed Euphemia, of all people, when it was so obviously unnecessary for any good and decent reason.

Almost all the evil villains in fiction are also not afraid to do what they think is necessary.

Lelouch was not gray, he was BLACK, BLACK BACK the first time he killed someone he obviously did not have to kill out of any immediate necessity. That evil series corrupted me into making excuse after excuse to claim that Lelouch did not have time to think, or he would have had problems if he let Clovis live, or the JLF leaders were just terrorists and didn't deserve to live anyway. But I could not make any excuses when there is so obviously no need to kill someone as when he killed Euphie.


You say that you have eliminated most or all of the Britannians from possibly being good and decent people. What about the other main characters?

The Japanese can all be eliminated from any chance of being good people worth liking. Apparently they disapprove of terrorists but they do not make their disapproval felt strongly enough . In "Black Knight" it was revealed that some branches of the JLF committed terrorism. Thus all members of the JLF were evil if they had never tried to force the leadership to stop terrorism (and none was ever shown doing so) . All supporters of the JLF were evil because they did not withdraw their support when they found out about the terrorism practiced by some branches of the JLF. And nobody was shown doing so.

Since the JLF was the main anti-Britannian group, it certainly got a lot of funding from the Kyoto Group. And thus when the Black Knights began to get support from the Kyoto group and nobody complained that it was tainted by the Kyoto Group's support of the terrorists in the JLF, the members of the Black Knights became evil if they were not already evil. No cause can ever be good enough to be worth fighting for and supporting if terrorists also fight for it. If any of the Black Knights was innocent up to the Geass Directorate massacre, they became evil the instant they participated in the massacre or remained in the organization, believing that its goals could possibly be more important than the horror of the massacre.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:That's the whole point. Nobody is black or white, just as it is in the real world. All you do is think in terms of good and bad, two extremes which can hardly be applied to anyone, ever. Nobody in this entire show is black or white. Not even Nunally. Remember, she pushes the button of FLEIA during the final battle, which can be considered a positive act as she refuses to stand by the sidelines and do nothing. Even though the series lacks a clear bad guys - good guys distinction, what is clear is that the Brittannian empire is as black as it gets. If I were being ruled by such a behemoth, I would definitely join the Black Knights in trying to change the world. Justified massacres of civilians by a discriminating, violent ideology. Sure, the Black Knights did questionable things, like the annihilation of the Order. Didn't look pretty, and yet it was a necessary part of their plans. Don't stare yourself blind on the individual action, keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind.
People doing nothing, standing idle when an injustice is being committed, while they have the power and ability to intervene and stop it are as guilty as the people committing the crime.


No! Popular opinion may say that Britannia was as black as it gets, but I say that even the best nation is far more evil than even the worst empire. I almost quit watching Code Geass in disgust in the first episode when I saw that Lelouch was going to try to regain Japanese independence from Britannia. But even though I believe that any one who helps anyone rebel against anyone, and especially an empire, is evil to the core, I was willing to think of Lelouch as being good by most people's standards even if evil by my standards. I would have continued to think of him as being good in that sense, in the sense that the misguided majority think is good, if only he hadn't done things which are clearly evil whether done on the side of empires or nations, conquerors or rebels. And to find his fans accepting things which are evil no matter what one's political ideology, merely because they like him, is too much.

In most conflicts, doing nothing is better than helping either evil side.

Remember that the Britannian massacres were all reactions to rebel efforts. No rebels, no massacres. Even the Fuji massacre, inflicted on people who clearly were not rebels, was a result of Lelouch clumsily interfering n the SAZ plan which was partially a reaction to the rebellions in Japan. The massacres were probably not justified so much by pure racism but by the fact that since the Britannians had won the competition and conflict all rebels were violating the natural order of dominance by the successful competitors (and not necessarily Britannains as such). Many Britannians would CLAIM that if the situation was reversed they would accept their failure as a natural result of their inferiority).

"Sure, the Black Knights did questionable things, like the annihilation of the Order. Didn't look pretty, and yet it was a necessary part of their plans. Don't stare yourself blind on the individual action, keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind."

It is impossible to massacre people unless you have great tactical superiority over them and can capture them alive. And in such a situation you can capture them and keep control of them. Thus if you can massacre people, you have no immediate military necessity to kill them and massacring them is an evil, senseless murder. You claim that getting rid of the gesss was a goal of the Black Knights. But killing mortal geass users will not reduce the number of geass users in the future. The way to reduce the number of geass users in the future is to capture the immortal geass givers and lock them up where they can't create new geass users.

All the most evil horrors in history were done by people who believed they had a good enough reason. They believed you shouldn't stare yourself blind looking at the individual action but should keep the the intent behind it and the big picture in mind. Many did it believing they had to slaughter helpless people to save their own people, or even to save the whole world. Since people seem to find it almost impossible to distinguish between good causes and evil causes, the best way to reduce or eliminate evil atrocities is to make everyone believe that some things are too evil to ever do, even to save the world.

Of course people who believe that might some times fail to save the world, But since most of the things that they will seek to save the world from will be perfectly harmless or even beneficial, that will not be a problem.

Don't keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind, stare yourself blind on the individual action.


As for Euphemia's achievements, go watch the episodes about the Battle of Narita again, and compare how the Britannians behave in that battle compared to other battles, and see how Euphemia's military ethics compare to those of every other character in the series.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:quote]Yuno_Gasai wrote:Euphemia's achievements were non existent there. All she did was allow Suzaky to head out and that's just about it. She was actually manipulated by him (she read his lips, forming Euphy, thus making a decision based on emotion rather than reason, which is one of the biggest mistakes you can make during a battle).


Are you blind? Did you see the ruined buildings left after the devastating Britannian invasion of Japan Did you see the flashbacks to the invasion? Did you see how the Britannians evacuated the civilians from the town of Narita. Notice that they merely used loudspeakers to tell the people to leave. They didn't go from house to house to force them out a bayonet point. The way they would do if there was some military advantage to the evacuation. Instead they behaved like the Japanese Defense Force in Godzilla movies. For the benefit of the civilians.

The Britannians were not shown to commit any atrocities at Naraita, when Euphemia was present. Maybe Cornelia believed in fighting with humanity and compassion as well as courage and determination and skill.

But the Saitema Ghetto Massacre in "Attack Cornelia" was an unnecessary massacre of civilians. Zero and/or the terrorists could have been flushed out in many other ways. Framing someone for being Zero would have been a likely plan to trap Zero, for example.

I say that Euphemia persuaded Cornelia that she could not continue to love Cornelia if Cornelia continued to massacre and slaughter and devastate in all her wars. I believe that Euphie persuaded Cornelia to find ways to get just as much victory with less death and destruction, and so leave more surviving subjects, and richer ones, in each conquered land to pay more taxes to support further Britannian conquests. And so Cornelia halted for a time her slide from using strategy and tactics in war to using massive brute force to win with incredible destruction and slaughter. And thousands or millions of civilian lives were saved in Cornelia's wars, until Euphemia was murdered and Cornelia quickly reverted to massive slaughter and destruction.

But at Saitema Cornelia massacred the civilians, because this was not war but destroying criminal terrorists. And no doubt Euphie sadly explained that if massacres and wanton slaughter are too evil for war they are not acceptable in peacetime capturing of criminals, and got Cornelia to agree not to massacre and slaughter when crushing civilian rebels in peacetime.

And Euphemia insisted on going to Narita to see the noble Britannian soldiers fight with honor and justice, knowing that if she was there Cornelia would have to make certain that they did so when they fought the JLF who had threatened Euphemia in "Black Knight".

Now do you see what I mean by Euphemia's achievement at Narita? Can't you see that a commander can win much greater victories than defeating the enemy? I say that Euphemia was the only commander in Code Geass shown to defeat her defeat her desire to win at any cost to defeat rebellion, and her desire to save her comrades (especially Cornelia) at any cost, when she refused to send the G1 forward, fearing that it would endanger the civilians who had been brought to the area ahead. Instead she sent Suzaku, who zoomed up the mountainside much faster than the G1 did, and up the path of the landslide where there were no civilians left to endanger.

Euphemia was the only commander in Code Geass who it was safe for the world to have in command. She was the only commander who was shown to meet the minimum necessary ethical standards for a military leader. The others were all too evil for command. And she was far better than the minimum standard.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:To end this, cause I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again in a thread that's not even supposed to handle said issue, I will simply say this. Euphemia was a nice character, the perfectly naive, overly protected, pretty and innocentlike princess character of the series. She played her part in the events that unfolded, and it was a considerable one. None of the people watching Code Geass will have probably seen it coming, the massacre and Euphemia's death, much like many other events in the series, which is a big part of the strength of it. It's what makes it absolutely fabulous, comparable to Death Note when it comes to the mental constructions and plans.
As for the survival of Lelouch, which you do not desire and which is what this thread is about, well, too bad for you I suppose. The Lelouch Lives Theory is pretty solid, and has tons of evidence supporting it. I guess you'll just have to deal with the fact that the creators of the show intended it to be like this, and accept the death of Euphemia and the survival of Lelouch (becoming the warlock CC always wanted). Perhaps you can get over your Euphemia obsession in the process, so you don't end up like Nina. I sincerely hope so, for your sake.


Actually you are in MY thread which is about the evil of Lelouch killing Euphemia and my utter horror of the thought of his survival.

I am in favor of big surprises as long as they don't involve killing the only character who is good or interesting enough to watch. What is interesting abut watching people follow their evil desires without any internal struggle, as all the other characters did when they used extreme violence as a first resort? I am in favor of big surprises as long as they are logical and make sense. I am in favor of big surprises as long as they don't involve having the protagonist kill someone when it is obviously unnecessary, and make me realize I have wasted so much time liking him instead of hating him.

Posted 8/24/10
My friend, like I said, I'm done with this discussion. I have given you ample evidence to counter what is wrong in your statements. Other things you point out are matter of opinion and I have given you credit where it was due. There is so much more wrong in these several walls of text, but meh. All you do is make up details and ideas to fit your idea. You constantly obsess over this one character that lasted 20 episodes, even saying that the Zero Requiem Scheme would not have been used if she were still around. Perhaps it is your idealist nature that speaks for you when you give me those examples of people who might want to try changing things from the inside (Russia, America, Rome). No, I don't believe they would succeed, cause one person can just about do nothing to change an entire system. Not to mention the potential corruption by the system and the initial selfish objectives which would play its part. Perhaps you need to take a closer look at history, where major changes have always been accomplished through a revolution, one way or another.

You keep hammering on the evilness of the series, and how you didn't like the show, well, then maybe you shouldn't have watched it at all. If it's too tough for you, to see lots of bloodshed and struggle, I recommend Spice and Wolf for you (with the voice actor of Lelouch and Kallen, a most enjoyable anime). This is just how the series is, and your wishful thinking can't change that. Perhaps you should cling to your anime multiverse theory in order to process all of this.

Do bad things happen in Code Geass? Yes. Does that make people who absolutely enjoy it and like watching it naughty people? No, it does not, contrary to what you suggested several times. If finding amusement in a most bloody story like this one makes you a bad person, everyone with a tv should just go hang himself. You can whine all you want about how the story enveloped, but you can't change it. The way the creators send their message is their choice. All we are to do is understand the message and enjoy the ride.
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Posted 8/24/10 , edited 8/24/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:

My friend, like I said, I'm done with this discussion. I have given you ample evidence to counter what is wrong in your statements. Other things you point out are matter of opinion and I have given you credit where it was due. There is so much more wrong in these several walls of text, but meh. All you do is make up details and ideas to fit your idea. You constantly obsess over this one character that lasted 20 episodes, even saying that the Zero Requiem Scheme would not have been used if she were still around.


All my ideas are logical deductions from the series, even if they happen to be different from the views of other people. For example, the scene in the sickbay of the Avalon pretty clearly shows Euphemia defeating her geass command. It is illogical to suppose that when the geass is seen trying to take over and does not, and later Euphemia is seen to be strong enough to kill Suzaku the same way she had killed hundreds or thousands of others, the geass command could have regained control but gave up because she was too weak.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:Perhaps it is your idealist nature that speaks for you when you give me those examples of people who might want to try changing things from the inside (Russia, America, Rome). No, I don't believe they would succeed, cause one person can just about do nothing to change an entire system. Not to mention the potential corruption by the system and the initial selfish objectives which would play its part. Perhaps you need to take a closer look at history, where major changes have always been accomplished through a revolution, one way or another.


Do you realize how humiliating it is for you that you did not see my sarcasm? I can't believe that you actually fell into my trap instead of admitting error.

Do you realize the statements that you have made about history?

I wrote:

So you think that Suzaku's plan of Joining Britannia and eventually reforming it was less likely to succeed than joining some violent revolt which almost always fails.

Suppose that by time travel you met a Russian boy Suzaku's age in 1977 whose ambition was to join the Communist Party and in about forty years or around 2017 be a top leader and do all he could to make the USSR a freer country with democracy, civil rights, and a better economic system. Would you think that his plan was doomed to fail, that it had no possible chance of working?

Suppose that in 1897 you met an Austrian boy Suzaku's age whose ambition was to join the army or the bureaucracy and work his way up to a top position in about forty years or around 1937 when he would work to extend the right to vote to everyone, not just the rich and the middle class. Would you think that his ambition was hopelessly over optimistic?

Suppose that in 1857 you met an American boy Suzaku's age, an avid supporter of the Republican Party, whose ambition was to rise in the party ranks and become a top leader in about forty years, or around 1897, and then use all his influence to keep the party committed to the gradual but complete abolition of slavery, which he hoped to see in his lifetime. Would you think that he was being wildly optimistic about his chances of ending slavery in his lifetime?

Suppose that in 257 AD, you met a Balkan peasant boy Suzaku's age who was going to join the Roman army. Suppose that his ambition was to rise into the ranks until he commanded an entire legion and his salary, bribes, and loot would make him wealthy enough to enrich his family and fellow villagers. Would you think that he didn't have a chance of rising that high because the proud senators would never allow a lowly peasant to command?


And you said they would all fail without bloody revolutions.

So you claim that the Soviet Union will not become more liberal, democratic, and free market until long after 2017 without a revolution?

You claim that the Austrian Empire did not achieve universal male suffrage until long after 1937 unless it had a revolution?

You claim that the United States did not abolish slavery until long after 1897 without a bloody revolution?

You claim that a Balkan peasant boy born around 240 AD could not possibly be promoted to command an entire legion and become wealthy enough to enrich his family and village by the end of his career around 300 AD?

I suppose you didn't realize why I compared Lelouch to the Hannibal of Japan.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:You keep hammering on the evilness of the series, and how you didn't like the show, well, then maybe you shouldn't have watched it at all. If it's too tough for you, to see lots of bloodshed and struggle, I recommend Spice and Wolf for you (with the voice actor of Lelouch and Kallen, a most enjoyable anime). This is just how the series is, and your wishful thinking can't change that. Perhaps you should cling to your anime multiverse theory in order to process all of this.


The bloodshed and struggle don't bother me. It is the totally unnecessary murder of the only good and decent character in the series by the protagonist who millions of fans still like and hope is alive that bothers me.


Yuno_Gasai wrote:Do bad things happen in Code Geass? Yes. Does that make people who absolutely enjoy it and like watching it naughty people? No, it does not, contrary to what you suggested several times. If finding amusement in a most bloody story like this one makes you a bad person, everyone with a tv should just go hang himself. You can whine all you want about how the story enveloped, but you can't change it. The way the creators send their message is their choice. All we are to do is understand the message and enjoy the ride.


I say people who like Code Geass are naughty, as you put it, not because they like the action, adventure, and battles in bloody stories (I have liked hundreds of such shows which did not have disgustingly evil protagonists), but because they retain even the slightest bit of affection for Lelouch after seeming him kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her alive.

If the creators are not bitterly disappointed to find out that even a single viewer still likes and respects Lelouch and wants him to survive, then I hate and despise them and their message with a bitter hatred that you cannot possible imagine. I understand and reject their message and hate the ride.

I used to love anime.

But after seeing Lelouch kill Euphemia without any immediate necessity, I have been depressed for almost two years. How could I dare to watch any new action anime or other television show or movie and risk seeing the protagonist, who the audience is expected to like enough to care about, senselessly kill someone?

And then I turned on an episode of Gundam 00 in the middle just to see what it was like. And the first scene was the one where Allelujah blew up the lab when he had been made a super soldier. With child victims in it. Without any immediate military necessity.

And now I hate anime and might never dare to watch any new action or adventure or military movie or television show, anime or not, for fear of seeing more evil, vile, disgusting protagonists like Lelouch or Allelujah.
Posted 8/25/10

All my ideas are logical deductions from the series, even if they happen to be different from the views of other people.


They are ideas based on speculation and desires, not based on facts. In fact you ignore facts in order for your ideas to seem plausible.


the geass command could have regained control but gave up because she was too weak.


There, you said it yourself. She was too weak, shot, not a chance in hell she could've killed anyone in that state. Perfect to create the situation required in any traditional anime plot. She didn't defeat the Geass, she was simply so weakened and near death that it became virtually impossible to execute said Geass. As can be seen with Shirley when she was dying, without any chance of survival in that situation, the live on Geass Lelouch tried would not work simply because it was impossible. So up untill then, the only way to defeat a Geass was to be near death, without a way to avert the eventual death itself.

Do you realize how humiliating it is for you that you did not see my sarcasm? I can't believe that you actually fell into my trap instead of admitting error.

Do you realize the statements that you have made about history?

Yes, I do realize the statement I made about history. I'm very much aware of the possibilities of major change in historical reality, much more aware than you for that matter, unless you study history as well at a university level? I pointed out that major shifts in societies in the short run have always happened by means of unconventional, sudden and mostly violent events, such as revolutions. You can not change society and the system from the inside without participating in it first, thus becoming an agent of said system. One person alone is also unable to change a system from the inside, simply because there are many more agents who don't desire change. The point is not whether changes of society are possible from the inside. The point is the timeframe of which you speak. Internal changes take several decades to occur, which is not what Lelouch is going for. Neither are the Japanese, who are practically slaves. Not even Suzuka would be willing to wait that long, which is why he appears as such an idealist dick, eventually turning out as a big hypocrite, realizing he was wrong. So no, this is not humiliating for me at all, as I do know what I'm talking about. The numbers in your new post added to your hypothetical historic events and the questions you direct at me are merely foolish. I did not write anything about that and will refrain from it, as there it is irrelevant to do so, and it would take me too far.


It is the totally unnecessary murder of the only good and decent character in the series by the protagonist who millions of fans still like and hope is alive that bothers me.


That's your opinion about the show, and also your opinion about the fans, shared by oh so few.


I say people who like Code Geass are naughty, as you put it, not because they like the action, adventure, and battles in bloody stories (I have liked hundreds of such shows which did not have disgustingly evil protagonists), but because they retain even the slightest bit of affection for Lelouch after seeming him kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her alive.


That is again your opinion shared by oh so few.


If the creators are not bitterly disappointed to find out that even a single viewer still likes and respects Lelouch and wants him to survive, then I hate and despise them and their message with a bitter hatred that you cannot possible imagine. I understand and reject their message and hate the ride.

I used to love anime.

But after seeing Lelouch kill Euphemia without any immediate necessity, I have been depressed for almost two years. How could I dare to watch any new action anime or other television show or movie and risk seeing the protagonist, who the audience is expected to like enough to care about, senselessly kill someone?

And then I turned on an episode of Gundam 00 in the middle just to see what it was like. And the first scene was the one where Allelujah blew up the lab when he had been made a super soldier. With child victims in it. Without any immediate military necessity.

And now I hate anime and might never dare to watch any new action or adventure or military movie or television show, anime or not, for fear of seeing more evil, vile, disgusting protagonists like Lelouch or Allelujah.


Well, I suppose that's really too bad for you. Let it go mate, it's just fiction, not real, a tv series made to entertain. It's normal some people not being able to enjoy it, as it is made for a certain public. But there's simply no point in whining about then. I was emotionally moved throughout the series, including when Euphemia died (although much more when Lelouch met his noble end, while everyone took him to be the most evilest scum that ever existed, good think Kallen realized though). But hell, I'm running around getting depressed over something that's not real, let alone 2 years. That just proves you have serious issues to deal with, and in that regard it is certainly wise never to watch any anime or any tv at all again to maintain your emoitional and mental stability. The fact that you are able to hate people simply based on their opinion on a tv show makes you a very unstable individual.
Also, Gundam 00 is somewhat the best spin off of the Gundam genre, perhaps rivalled by Gundam Wing (childhood memories ey). I suppose you would go wild if you ever watched Gundam Wing, as a whole colony with thousands of inhabitants is actually blown up there, just like in Gundam Seed (which has the most carnage I've ever seen in an anime methinks, relating to innocent civilians and such). Then again, if you don't watch the events in the proper context, namely all previous episodes of Gundam 00 leading to that event, then you don't know what you're talking about whatsoever, which is something I'm not surprised of really.

So peace, really, find some, and help too. And if you really can't resist watching anime, then I highly recommend Spice & Wolf. It's a most enjoyable anime, where the action is not too dominant, but also not too absent. Or K-ON, that's also quite amusing to watch. I think you'll find those animes right for you, if you trust my word on it that is.
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Posted 8/25/10 , edited 8/25/10

Yuno_Gasai wrote:


All my ideas are logical deductions from the series, even if they happen to be different from the views of other people.


They are ideas based on speculation and desires, not based on facts. In fact you ignore facts in order for your ideas to seem plausible.

NO, that is the attitude of the fans of Code Geass, ignoring the facts to suit their feelings.


the geass command could have regained control but gave up because she was too weak.


[

Yuno_Gasai wrote:red]There, you said it yourself. She was too weak, shot, not a chance in hell she could've killed anyone in that state. Perfect to create the situation required in any traditional anime plot. She didn't defeat the Geass, she was simply so weakened and near death that it became virtually impossible to execute said Geass. As can be seen with Shirley when she was dying, without any chance of survival in that situation, the live on Geass Lelouch tried would not work simply because it was impossible. So up untill then, the only way to defeat a Geass was to be near death, without a way to avert the eventual death itself.


"not a chance in hell she could've killed anyone in that state"?

You know that you merely quoted part of my sentence which states that makes no sense to believe that "the geass command could have regained control but gave up because she was too weak."

The argument that Euphemia was took weak to kill Suzaku because she was too weak to beat him to death with a club or strangle him to death or break his neck or smash his skull has been accepted far too long. It should have been laughed to death the first time it was ever made.

Euphie might have been strong enough to slit Suzaku's throat with a knife, or shoot him with a gun, or used any other tool invented to making killing physically easier, if she could have tricked Suzaku into bringing her one.

Euphie may have killed tens of people by shooting them with guns and the weapons of her knightmare. But she killed hundreds or thousands of people by ordering the troops in the stadium to kill and by broadcasting her order to kill that may have started tens or hundreds of other massacres (and the best way to stop those widely-scattered massacres would have been to capture her and broadcast a demand that they stop in return for her life.).

The geass command knew all that and could tell that she was still strong enough to give coherent orders. She could have asked Suzaku's help in using the intercom and then ordered the captain of the Avalon to kill Sauzku and head for the nearest Japanese ghetto and blast it to avenge her death. There is no logical reason for the geass command to give up controlling her when there was a chance it could make her kill tens of thousands more Japanese.

The scene clearly shows Euphemia defeating her geass command. The idea that the geass command gave up trying to control her because she was too weak to kill is merely a feeble attempt by fans to to deny the plain facts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you realize how humiliating it is for you that you did not see my sarcasm? I can't believe that you actually fell into my trap instead of admitting error.

Do you realize the statements that you have made about history?


Yuno_Gasai wrote:

Yuno_Gasai wrote:Yes, I do realize the statement I made about history. I'm very much aware of the possibilities of major change in historical reality, much more aware than you for that matter, unless you study history as well at a university level? I pointed out that major shifts in societies in the short run have always happened by means of unconventional, sudden and mostly violent events, such as revolutions. You can not change society and the system from the inside without participating in it first, thus becoming an agent of said system. One person alone is also unable to change a system from the inside, simply because there are many more agents who don't desire change. The point is not whether changes of society are possible from the inside. The point is the timeframe of which you speak. Internal changes take several decades to occur, which is not what Lelouch is going for. Neither are the Japanese, who are practically slaves. Not even Suzuka would be willing to wait that long, which is why he appears as such an idealist dick, eventually turning out as a big hypocrite, realizing he was wrong. So no, this is not humiliating for me at all, as I do know what I'm talking about. The numbers in your new post added to your hypothetical historic events and the questions you direct at me are merely foolish. I did not write anything about that and will refrain from it, as there it is irrelevant to do so, and it would take me too far.


I always thought that Suzaku was planning to become a top Britannian knight in thirty or forty or fifty years. I thought that was his plan. Meeting Euphemia and having a chance to help the Japanese immediately spoiled him and he could no longer wait so long, which is why in desperation he tried the very foolish and counterproductive tactic of switching sides several times in the second season

We see a number of Japanese whose circumstances seem a lot better than almost slaves. If the Japanese had been reduced to slavery or almost slavery it would have been almost impossible for the various rebel groups to get started. And of course slave revolts or serf revolts tend to be extremely violent and almost 99 percent unsuccessful.

So you never bothered to find out when the USSR is expected to become freer and more democratic.

You never the checked the date when the Austrian Empire adopted universal (male) suffrage.

You never checked to see at what date the Republican Party hoped that slavery would have become extinct if their program of forbidding the creation of new slave territories and states and prohibiting the interstate slave trade was followed consistently until success.

And don't say that there was a violent revolution involved with the end of slavery. The Republican plan for a revolution was entirely peaceful and legal. They planned on using the legal electoral process to get their revolutionary programs adopted peacefully. They never organized rebel groups to seize the state and national governments and govern against the will of the majority of the American people.

It was the conservative Southerners who wanted to keep society unchanged who adopted violent revolution in the hope of preserving slavery and unleashed a violent civil war which saw the end of slavery much sooner than the Republican leaders had ever dared to hope.

In 1860-61 the only ones who wanted to revolutionize society were the Republicans, but the only ones who used violent revolutionary methods were the conservative Southerners.

And clearly you don't know the second thing about Ancient Roman History and never bothered to investigate the prospects for promotion of a peasant soldier in the Roman army in the era 260-300 AD. You never bothered to check what a peasant soldier's chance of becoming a legionary commander and retiring wealthy enough to help his family and village around the years 300 would be.


It is the totally unnecessary murder of the only good and decent character in the series by the protagonist who millions of fans still like and hope is alive that bothers me.


[

Yuno_Gasai wrote:red]That's your opinion about the show, and also your opinion about the fans, shared by oh so few.


We few, we lucky few, who can think rationally about ethical issues.


I say people who like Code Geass are naughty, as you put it, not because they like the action, adventure, and battles in bloody stories (I have liked hundreds of such shows which did not have disgustingly evil protagonists), but because they retain even the slightest bit of affection for Lelouch after seeming him kill Euphemia when it would have been so easy to capture her alive.



Yuno_Gasai wrote:That is again your opinion shared by oh so few.


We few, we lucky few, who can think rationally about ethical issues.


If the creators are not bitterly disappointed to find out that even a single viewer still likes and respects Lelouch and wants him to survive, then I hate and despise them and their message with a bitter hatred that you cannot possible imagine. I understand and reject their message and hate the ride.

I used to love anime.

But after seeing Lelouch kill Euphemia without any immediate necessity, I have been depressed for almost two years. How could I dare to watch any new action anime or other television show or movie and risk seeing the protagonist, who the audience is expected to like enough to care about, senselessly kill someone?

And then I turned on an episode of Gundam 00 in the middle just to see what it was like. And the first scene was the one where Allelujah blew up the lab when he had been made a super soldier. With child victims in it. Without any immediate military necessity.

And now I hate anime and might never dare to watch any new action or adventure or military movie or television show, anime or not, for fear of seeing more evil, vile, disgusting protagonists like Lelouch or Allelujah.




Yuno_Gasai wrote:
Well, I suppose that's really too bad for you. Let it go mate, it's just fiction, not real, a tv series made to entertain. It's normal some people not being able to enjoy it, as it is made for a certain public. But there's simply no point in whining about then. I was emotionally moved throughout the series, including when Euphemia died (although much more when Lelouch met his noble end, while everyone took him to be the most evilest scum that ever existed, good think Kallen realized though). But hell, I'm running around getting depressed over something that's not real, let alone 2 years. That just proves you have serious issues to deal with, and in that regard it is certainly wise never to watch any anime or any tv at all again to maintain your emoitional and mental stability. The fact that you are able to hate people simply based on their opinion on a tv show makes you a very unstable individual.
Also, Gundam 00 is somewhat the best spin off of the Gundam genre, perhaps rivalled by Gundam Wing (childhood memories ey). I suppose you would go wild if you ever watched Gundam Wing, as a whole colony with thousands of inhabitants is actually blown up there, just like in Gundam Seed (which has the most carnage I've ever seen in an anime methinks, relating to innocent civilians and such). Then again, if you don't watch the events in the proper context, namely all previous episodes of Gundam 00 leading to that event, then you don't know what you're talking about whatsoever, which is something I'm not surprised of really.


What do you mean people MISTOOK Lelouch for the worst scum ever? Didn't his Zero Requiem plan involve making himself universally hated? Hated worse than Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Hitler, Stalin, or Chairman Mao were hated in our world? Wouldn't that have to involve slaughtering hundreds of millions of people, about one out of every ten people in the world, and not concentrated in groups but evenly spread out so that everyone wuold know several people who had been killed by order of the Evil Emperor Lelouch? Such horrible slaughter would seem to be the absolute minimum requirement for becoming so universally hated. Anyone who seeks to become falsely thought of as the most evil person ever will actually become the most evil person ever long before his plan succeeds. And all those who help him will become incredibly evil.

I watched Gundam Seed and was not shocked by the extreme violence. Perhaps because the audience was not expected to like anyone who had committed the worst atrocities.

Fiction is my refugee from grim reality. I hate everyone who makes fiction even more disgusting than grim reality.

I recently watched all of the evil and disgusting episode 11 of Gundam 00.

How can the previous episodes of Gundam make the children less dead?

How can they make Allelujah less evil for finding peace with his past by the murder of children instead of psychiatric treatment?

How can the the previous episodes made VEDA less evil and incompetent for approving Allelujah's plan without modifying it to have the children survive for the sake of Celestial Being's public image?

How can the previous episodes make Allelujah's boss less evil and incompetent for not insisting that the plan be modified to have the children survive for the sake of Celestial Being's public image?

How can previous episodes make the launch crew seem less evil and incompetent for thinking that releasing the information about the super soldiers project will help Celestial Being's public image if they murder the child victims of the project?

How can previous episodes make the founder of Celestial Being less evil for not insisting that his warriors fight with at least some minimal, basic, highly limited warrior ethics, that at least they never kill anybody when there is obviously no immediate tactical necessity to do so?

How can previous episodes make the fellow Gundam pilot seem less warped, twisted, evil, and disgusting when he thinks that Allelujah is about to purify himself of his past? Murdering children makes somebody more corrupted and polluted by his past instead of cleansing him.

I am sick and tired of military necessity being used to justify so many horrors of war. But here the fans accept Celestial Being when they murder children without any immediate tactical necessity and at the cost of great harm to their already deeply tarnished public image.

How can the previous episodes make Celestial Being seem less evil merely by showing how evil their enemies are? Even if they make Celestial Being seem less evil than their enemies, and make the victory of Celestial Being seem necessary for the good of the world, they do not make any member of Celestia Being good enough to like or care about or wish good things to happen to.

Even if the antagonists are a thousand times worse, or a billion times worse, than Celestia Being, the members of Celestial being are far too evil to be acceptable protagonists. The only possible happy ending for the story would be if Celestial Being defeated the last enemy that was even worse than them, and then, when the world no longer needed them to save it, in the great victory banquet in their honor, they are all poisoned by a vengeful relative of one of the children, except for Allelujah who is captured and tortured to death.

That would teach anime fans not to tolerate atrocities committed by characters who think they are trying to save the world. Anime fans need to be shown that even saving the world can not atone for even one obviously unnecessary killing.

IN a previous post you wrote: :"Sure, the Black Knights did questionable things, like the annihilation of the Order. Didn't look pretty, and yet it was a necessary part of their plans. Don't stare yourself blind on the individual action, keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind."

And I replied with:

All the most evil horrors in history were done by people who believed they had a good enough reason.

They believed "you shouldn't stare yourself blind looking at the individual action but should keep the the intent behind it and the big picture in mind".

Many committed foul crimes believing they had to slaughter helpless people to save their own people, or even to save the whole world. Since people seem to find it almost impossible to distinguish between good causes and evil causes, the best way to reduce or eliminate evil atrocities is to make everyone believe that some things are too evil to ever do, even to save the world.

Of course people who believe that might some times fail to save the world, But since most of the things that they will seek to save the world from will be perfectly harmless or even beneficial, that will not be a problem.

Don't keep the intent behind it and the big picture in mind, stare yourself blind on the individual action.




Yuno_Gasai wrote:So peace, really, find some, and help too. And if you really can't resist watching anime, then I highly recommend Spice & Wolf. It's a most enjoyable anime, where the action is not too dominant, but also not too absent. Or K-ON, that's also quite amusing to watch. I think you'll find those animes right for you, if you trust my word on it that is.


Arthur C Clarke, father of the idea of communications satellites, wrote a story "I remember Babylon" (1960) reprinted in Tales of Ten Worlds (1962) about possible changes in television programming as a result of satellites. You should try to find a printed or internet copy of it. Everything which Clarke speculated about in it has happened, for better AND for worse, though not as part of a Red Chinese plot.

Perhaps this will make you understand my horror at protagonists like Lelouch and Allelujah.


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D00d Infinity, wtf r u doin on these forums
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