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Mosque at ground zero
Posted 8/31/10 , edited 8/31/10
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/

Basically they are proposing building a $100 million dollar Islamic center, which would include a mosque among other things, about two blocks from ground zero. If you do not know what ground zero is, it is where the twin towers fell in the 9/11 attack.

Personally I am against building the mosque, I am all for freedom of religion but, in my opinion, this is not an appropriate place for a mosque to be built.

Where do you stand on this issue?
Posted 8/31/10 , edited 8/31/10
I'm not exactly sure if this will help clear things up. If anything, people in the Middle East might come to see Ground Zero as holy ground and possibly fight to claim it. That's just my opinion.
Posted 8/31/10
Personally, I find the statement below interesting:

Of particular interest are the views of leading Muslim moderates — Muslims known for their commitment to tolerance and pluralism, and for their opposition to all forms of radical Islam.

One such individual is Zuhdi Jasser, a physician, US Navy veteran, and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy.

Jasser reminisced last week about his family’s history of building mosques in the heartland communities where they lived. His parents, Syrian immigrants to the United States, helped create the Fox Valley Islamic Center in Neenah, Wis., in 1980. “This was during the Iranian hostage crisis,’’ he recalled, “and some of the local residents wanted the Zoning Commission to prevent the mosque from going forward.’’ But the commissioners gave their blessing to the project, and the modest mosque — the construction budget was just $80,000 — became part of the neighborhood. Later the family later moved to western Arkansas, where they joined with others to create the Islamic Center of Fort Smith. As recently as March, Jasser came out in support of Muslims in Sheboygan, Wis., whose plans for a new place of worship were meeting with vocal resistance.

But he adamantly opposes the ground zero mosque.

“For us, a mosque was always a place to pray, to be together on holidays — not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement,’’ Jasser said. “Ground zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.’’ To use that space for Muslim outreach, he argues, is “the worst form of misjudgment.’’

Equally opposed is Stephen Suleyman Schwartz, a devout Muslim and director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in Washington.

Schwartz notes that the spiritual leader of the Cordoba Initiative, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, describes himself as a Sufi — a Muslim focused on Islamic mysticism and spiritual wisdom. But “building a 15-story Islamic center at ground zero isn’t something a Sufi would do,’’ according to Schwartz, also a practitioner of Sufism. “Sufism is supposed to be based on sensitivity toward others,’’ yet Cordoba House comes across as “grossly insensitive.’’ He rejects Rauf’s stance that a highly visible Muslim presence at ground zero is the way to make a statement opposing what happened on 9/11. Better, in his view, is the approach of many Muslims “who hate terrorism and who have gone privately to the site and recited prayers for the dead silently and unperceived by others.’’

Ali al-Ahmed, a Saudi native who founded the Institute for Gulf Affairs and is an advocate for civil rights and religious freedom in the Middle East, hopes for the best from Cordoba House. “A mosque should be a good thing,’’ he told me. But he worries about the number of Americans who may be “hurt and upset’’ by the project, and wonders whether a mosque is really the best thing for Muslims to build so close to ground zero. Why not something less emotionally charged, he asks — a social-service agency, perhaps, or an assisted living center for the elderly?

Muslims must take the feelings of Americans into account, Ahmed contends. He cites no less an Islamic authority than the Imam Ali, Mohammed’s influential son-in-law. “Reconciliation of your differences,’’ says Imam Ali in the collection of teachings known as the Peak of Eloquence, “is more worthy than all prayers and fasting.’’(citation)
I think they're raising some strong and valid points, as in this particular project is everything not about moderate Islam. But rather it's more like the typical grandiosity known as Americanization:

Americans think of their culture as relatively conservative. However, compared to the rest of the world, we are the revolutionary society. This causes a threat to many nations around the world. "For the rest of the world, we are wild, crazy revolutionaries, with rings in our noses and paint on our toes, overturning cultures and traditions wherever we go"(citation)
It's IMHO that this site will be a perversion of a "hall of shame", howbeit unintentionally so, for the real victims -both Muslims and none-Muslim communities alike- of radical Islamic fundamentalists.
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Posted 9/1/10
Well wouldn't you be a bad person if you want to stop people froming building a place of worship for their god, you know denying people the right of practicing their religion.
In my eyes there should not be done anything against the build islamic centre or mosque.
But ofcourse I can somewhat understand the emotions some people feel with a mosque close to ground zero, however you are mistaken if you blame the Islam for 9/11.

Please do not turn this into a islam bashing topic :(
Posted 9/1/10

amersfoort wrote:

Well wouldn't you be a bad person if you want to stop people froming building a place of worship for their god, you know denying people the right of practicing their religion.
In my eyes there should not be done anything against the build islamic centre or mosque.
But ofcourse I can somewhat understand the emotions some people feel with a mosque close to ground zero, however you are mistaken if you blame the Islam for 9/11.

Please do not turn this into a islam bashing topic :(
That's just it though, the moderate Muslims of Islamic faith don't what a place of Islamic spirituality of this grandiose in magnitude(which in itself is against their spiritual teaching), to be build so obviously close to a site that none of them want to be associate with(they want nothing to do with the wrong doing of radical Islamic fundamentalists). Thereby whatever that the American politicians are approving obviously didn't consider the wishes of those who will be directly involved, that's definitely not freedom of religion.
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Posted 9/1/10

Aztecnology wrote:

I'm not exactly sure if this will help clear things up. If anything, people in the Middle East might come to see Ground Zero as holy ground and possibly fight to claim it. That's just my opinion.


A statement that makes no sense what so ever... Why would people from the Middle East (Kuwait citizens? Iranian citizens? Iraq citizens?) come to ground zero and fight to claim it?

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Posted 9/1/10
If everyone was to actually sit down and think about it logically, they would see that this shouldn't be an issue to begin with. These muslim people have every right to build a community center near ground zero and all of the negative connotations are only there in the minds of the people against it. I have not seen a single person give a reason why the owners of this property, or the people who use it , shouldn't be trusted (other than for racist reasons). Most people are just blinded by notions that this is a 'victory' for Islamic Terrorist groups but, from my point of view, we shouldn't care if terrorists get an ego boost because of this. You can't sacrifice freedoms just to win lame ego battles.

Basically supporters of this are just promoting ignorance/intolerance and some are even becoming terrorists (the people they hate) by threatening violence since they don't know what terrorism is and think you need to be Muslim in order to be a terrorist. I blame hack news networks for blowing this out of proportion and the drones that believe whatever they hear on the news or from people they know.

One sad thing that has brought to light is that, for all of our big talk, the people in the USA can be just as backwards as people from many other countries.
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Posted 9/1/10

BasouKazuma wrote:

If everyone was to actually sit down and think about it logically, they would see that this shouldn't be an issue to begin with. These muslim people have every right to build a community center near ground zero and all of the negative connotations are only there in the minds of the people against it. I have not seen a single person give a reason why the owners of this property, or the people who use it , shouldn't be trusted (other than for racist reasons). Most people are just blinded by notions that this is a 'victory' for Islamic Terrorist groups but, from my point of view, we shouldn't care if terrorists get an ego boost because of this. You can't sacrifice freedoms just to win lame ego battles.

Basically supporters of this are just promoting ignorance/intolerance and some are even becoming terrorists (the people they hate) by threatening violence since they don't know what terrorism is and think you need to be Muslim in order to be a terrorist. I blame hack news networks for blowing this out of proportion and the drones that believe whatever they hear on the news or from people they know.

One sad thing that has brought to light is that, for all of our big talk, the people in the USA can be just as backwards as people from many other countries.


This is news?

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Posted 9/1/10
I'm not sure what to answer to this question..... but I'd like to know, how does freedom of religion guarantee a specific location for assembly? I thought the right was to be able to believe as one chooses, not a promise to real estate .

I am aware of other "churches" being denied locations for reasons of zoning, traffic flow problems, parking issues, & even flooding problems due to rain run-off from the creation of a large parking lot (they were not all one specific religion).

Location, location, location........
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Posted 9/1/10

farmbird wrote:

I'm not sure what to answer to this question..... but I'd like to know, how does freedom of religion guarantee a specific location for assembly? I thought the right was to be able to believe as one chooses, not a promise to real estate .

I am aware of other "churches" being denied locations for reasons of zoning, traffic flow problems, parking issues, & even flooding problems due to rain run-off from the creation of a large parking lot (they were not all one specific religion).

Location, location, location........


However the debate wasn't couched in terms of The proposed Islamic center being denied a permit due to other claim. It is couched in terms of public outcry over putting an Islamic facility right next to the site of the most infamous attack by Islamic fundamentalists in that nation.
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Posted 9/1/10 , edited 9/1/10
As for where I stand: Freedom of speech and property laws allow you to buy your own copy of the Qu'ran (or any other holy book) and burn it. Even burn it in public if you're not violating any other laws in the process.

Freedom of religion and Separation of church and state mean that Yes you can put up a religious building any place you can afford the property and abide by the zoning regulations. Just like any other endeavor. rejecting such a project solely on the grounds of the builder's faith choice would be a violation of the above. EVEN IF, it's an upsetting and insensitive act.

In both cases You could argue that people are using freedom to be douchebags. but that is in part what freedom is about. You're also free to argue with both parties. Publicly PEACEFULLY protest their actions, boycott their products, refuse to friend them in face book etc.

Freedom is not the Freedom to do only what pleases everyone around you. Conversely the people around you are free to treat you like a dick if you act like one.

(minor edit for grammar and emphasis)

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Posted 9/1/10 , edited 9/1/10

Aztecnology wrote:

I'm not exactly sure if this will help clear things up. If anything, people in the Middle East might come to see Ground Zero as holy ground and possibly fight to claim it. That's just my opinion.


This statement is a blanket statement that makes absoultely no sense what so ever. I agree with Northsbound here. Why in the world would muslims in different countries travel here to fight and claim land in NYC that has no historical religious meaning to it whatsoever? Please this begs a definant response because hollow statements like this is fed through the mainstream media with no clarification what so ever.


BasouKazuma wrote:

If everyone was to actually sit down and think about it logically, they would see that this shouldn't be an issue to begin with. These muslim people have every right to build a community center near ground zero and all of the negative connotations are only there in the minds of the people against it. I have not seen a single person give a reason why the owners of this property, or the people who use it , shouldn't be trusted (other than for racist reasons). Most people are just blinded by notions that this is a 'victory' for Islamic Terrorist groups but, from my point of view, we shouldn't care if terrorists get an ego boost because of this. You can't sacrifice freedoms just to win lame ego battles.

Basically supporters of this are just promoting ignorance/intolerance and some are even becoming terrorists (the people they hate) by threatening violence since they don't know what terrorism is and think you need to be Muslim in order to be a terrorist. I blame hack news networks for blowing this out of proportion and the drones that believe whatever they hear on the news or from people they know.

One sad thing that has brought to light is that, for all of our big talk, the people in the USA can be just as backwards as people from many other countries.


This has got to be the best response so far. I want to elaborate on this more when I get off of work because there is a much bigger political issue here at stake. I am just going to leave this here untill I elaborate more. Just who is this Islamaphobia actually benefitting here? Who is reaping all the benefits for Americans to hate Islam?
Posted 9/1/10

drizza wrote:


Aztecnology wrote:

I'm not exactly sure if this will help clear things up. If anything, people in the Middle East might come to see Ground Zero as holy ground and possibly fight to claim it. That's just my opinion.


This statement is a blanket statement that makes absoultely no sense what so ever. I agree with Northsbound here. Why in the world would muslims in different countries travel here to fight and claim land in NYC that has no historical religious meaning to it whatsoever? Please this begs a definant response because hollow statements like this is fed through the mainstream media with no clarification what so ever.


BasouKazuma wrote:

If everyone was to actually sit down and think about it logically, they would see that this shouldn't be an issue to begin with. These muslim people have every right to build a community center near ground zero and all of the negative connotations are only there in the minds of the people against it. I have not seen a single person give a reason why the owners of this property, or the people who use it , shouldn't be trusted (other than for racist reasons). Most people are just blinded by notions that this is a 'victory' for Islamic Terrorist groups but, from my point of view, we shouldn't care if terrorists get an ego boost because of this. You can't sacrifice freedoms just to win lame ego battles.

Basically supporters of this are just promoting ignorance/intolerance and some are even becoming terrorists (the people they hate) by threatening violence since they don't know what terrorism is and think you need to be Muslim in order to be a terrorist. I blame hack news networks for blowing this out of proportion and the drones that believe whatever they hear on the news or from people they know.

One sad thing that has brought to light is that, for all of our big talk, the people in the USA can be just as backwards as people from many other countries.


This has got to be the best response so far. I want to elaborate on this more when I get off of work because there is a much bigger political issue here at stake. I am just going to leave this here untill I elaborate more. Just who is this Islamaphobia actually benefitting here? Who is reaping all the benefits for Americans to hate Islam?


Has no historical significance? I beg to differ, when it is clear that Ground Zero does in fact have a lot of historical significance religiously. It was based on faith (though from the perspective of fanatics) that the World Trade Center fell. There are conspiracy theories about how the American government set all that up, but I highly doubt that is the case. The building of a mosque where thousands of people died won't do very much to settle things down, since it is merely a ploy for creating the illusion of peace.
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Posted 9/1/10
I think this isn't a matter of taste (as many are making it out to be) but a matter of Law. The first amendment of the U.S. Constitution states;

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech...'

In other words, there should be no debate as to whether we should allow it to be built or not. Regardless of whether its distasteful or not, the owners of the property are legally allowed to build a mosque/community center there. If the government were to intervene, they would be violating a founding principle of this country, something both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (among others) referred to as 'a wall of separation between church and state.'
Posted 9/1/10

MSherid89 wrote:

I think this isn't a matter of taste (as many are making it out to be) but a matter of Law. The first amendment of the U.S. Constitution states;

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech...'

In other words, there should be no debate as to whether we should allow it to be built or not. Regardless of whether its distasteful or not, the owners of the property are legally allowed to build a mosque/community center there. If the government were to intervene, they would be violating a founding principle of this country, something both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (among others) referred to as 'a wall of separation between church and state.'
However, where's the "separation" when the states obviously supporting the church?

But the project also has strong political support. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer are among its backers, and Cordoba House was endorsed by lower Manhattan’s Community Board No. 1 in a near-unanimous vote last month.(citation)
Furthermore, since your argument doesn't include regular citizens, you can't stop the debate unless you intend on violating the freedom of speech.
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