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Mosque at ground zero
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Posted 9/12/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


amersfoort wrote:

Hmmm well I came to a conclusion myself
It's the right of everyone to practice their religion and build the neccessery things for that right?
So buildings of worshipping cannot be banned or blocked from building.

However!
It's also everyones right to protest whatever they want, sooo let the protesters protest and let the religious people worship their deity :happy:



I think I said that about a page back. perhaps it was missed because I used more words.





Ohh, my apologies, I must say I haven't read much of the thread.
But I also posted it for myself, so that I can have that conclusion and that others know I have reached to that conclusion for myself.

Again sorry, I did not mean to copy your post.
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Posted 9/12/10 , edited 9/12/10

amersfoort wrote:


Ohh, my apologies, I must say I haven't read much of the thread.
But I also posted it for myself, so that I can have that conclusion and that others know I have reached to that conclusion for myself.

Again sorry, I did not mean to copy your post.


No need for apologies. Just saying...


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Posted 9/12/10

abdulmoham77 wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Sweet-Vampire21 wrote:

if you can have your churches and stuff built, why cant the mosque be built? how lame..


Okay so can I build a church in Medina or Mecca?





When there are synagogues and mosques to be found in the Vatican City.


Let's make it more general, as many churches and synagogues in The Kingdom are there are synagogues and Mosques in Italy.

This is a moot point though to be honest. I've already stated my take on American law and principals. By their own code they should let the builders of Cordoba house build whatever they want as long as it meets zoning laws. Just like any other business, church or private endeavour. That's what separation of church and state mean. The people who are complaining are.. Free to do so... That's what freedom of expression means.

It's got nothing to do with the real or imagined symbolism of a place called Cordoba overlooking ground zero. It has even less to do with the lack of similar freedoms in Islamic Theocracies. It's about weather Americans adhere to their stated core values.. or don't.


Posted 9/13/10 , edited 9/13/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


abdulmoham77 wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Sweet-Vampire21 wrote:

if you can have your churches and stuff built, why cant the mosque be built? how lame..


Okay so can I build a church in Medina or Mecca?





When there are synagogues and mosques to be found in the Vatican City.


Let's make it more general, as many churches and synagogues in The Kingdom are there are synagogues and Mosques in Italy.

This is a moot point though to be honest. I've already stated my take on American law and principals. By their own code they should let the builders of Cordoba house build whatever they want as long as it meets zoning laws. Just like any other business, church or private endeavour. That's what separation of church and state mean. The people who are complaining are.. Free to do so... That's what freedom of expression means.

It's got nothing to do with the real or imagined symbolism of a place called Cordoba overlooking ground zero. It has even less to do with the lack of similar freedoms in Islamic Theocracies. It's about weather Americans adhere to their stated core values.. or don't.




It's all down to a difference of opinion then. Even within Islam, between all religions, between all groups of people, a difference of strong opinions tend to create friction. I blame humans.
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Posted 9/14/10
He has the right to build whatever he wants to as long as it complies with zoning.

But frankly that's not even the issue. Its the fact that its blatantly and purposely offensive.

Its the equivalent of me murdering your kid by shooting him in the face, then a few years later coming back and building a golden statue of me shooting your kid in the face on your front lawn.
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Posted 9/14/10
Well I have to agree with you no that one, and said so graphically well.
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Posted 9/14/10

Allhailodin wrote:

He has the right to build whatever he wants to as long as it complies with zoning.

But frankly that's not even the issue. Its the fact that its blatantly and purposely offensive.

Its the equivalent of me murdering your kid by shooting him in the face, then a few years later coming back and building a golden statue of me shooting your kid in the face on your front lawn.

No because you can kick me off your front lawn.


You're first sentence is absolutely right. end of story.. As far as government goes.

You're free to call him an offensive son of bitch for doing it.

That's Separation of church and state, and freedom of speach in action. You (the USA) either live by your own expressed core values or abandon them because someone ticked you off. Your choice.


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Posted 9/14/10
That true But Quran states to overthrow existing government and replace it with it is theocracy. The religion and state can not be separated out of the book If Islamic law would place it self under the law of the land. There would not really be an issue, even Christ recognized that one. The practitioners are could be technically charged with treason espionage because Islamic law tops all other laws.
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Posted 9/14/10

tarakelly wrote:

That true But Quran states to overthrow existing government and replace it with it is theocracy. The religion and state can not be separated out of the book If Islamic law would place it self under the law of the land. There would not really be an issue, even Christ recognized that one. The practitioners are could be technically charged with treason espionage because Islamic law tops all other laws.


Perhaps. I'm not conceding this point I'm just refusing to argue it. It is MOOT.

the operative values here are yours. It doesn't matter that someone in another country isn't as near as tolerant. It doesn't matter what you suspect an individual may do with their constitutional freedoms. They are YOUR constitutional freedoms. And they are indeed 'inalienable' or your constitution might as well be toilet paper. Again. Your choice.



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Posted 9/14/10
But there is a conflict freedom of religion and separation of church and state. I do not want to see the blue laws ever come back and they should have been challenged. Well law of the land should supersede over religious values. Like doctor patient confidentiality. If a priest know a crime will happen from a confession he needs to report it or be an accessory to the crime. Even lawyer have to fess up if they are aware of a crime.
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Posted 9/14/10 , edited 9/14/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


tarakelly wrote:

That true But Quran states to overthrow existing government and replace it with it is theocracy. The religion and state can not be separated out of the book If Islamic law would place it self under the law of the land. There would not really be an issue, even Christ recognized that one. The practitioners are could be technically charged with treason espionage because Islamic law tops all other laws.


Perhaps. I'm not conceding this point I'm just refusing to argue it. It is MOOT.

the operative values here are yours. It doesn't matter that someone in another country isn't as near as tolerant. It doesn't matter what you suspect an individual may do with their constitutional freedoms. They are YOUR constitutional freedoms. And they are indeed 'inalienable' or your constitution might as well be toilet paper. Again. Your choice.



This mosque will never get finished.

First no contractor in his right mind will take this project on, he will never get another job in NY again. I wouldn't build it even for 200 million dollars. Nor would any other sane contractor. The contractor who does accept will never get another job in NY again.

And the project will have to deal with massive sabotage. People will try to take it down before it gets finished. I bet 100 bucks someone tries to either burn it down or blow it up. Irony at its finest.
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Posted 9/15/10

Allhailodin wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


tarakelly wrote:

That true But Quran states to overthrow existing government and replace it with it is theocracy. The religion and state can not be separated out of the book If Islamic law would place it self under the law of the land. There would not really be an issue, even Christ recognized that one. The practitioners are could be technically charged with treason espionage because Islamic law tops all other laws.


Perhaps. I'm not conceding this point I'm just refusing to argue it. It is MOOT.

the operative values here are yours. It doesn't matter that someone in another country isn't as near as tolerant. It doesn't matter what you suspect an individual may do with their constitutional freedoms. They are YOUR constitutional freedoms. And they are indeed 'inalienable' or your constitution might as well be toilet paper. Again. Your choice.



This mosque will never get finished.

First no contractor in his right mind will take this project on, he will never get another job in NY again. I wouldn't build it even for 200 million dollars. Nor would any other sane contractor. The contractor who does accept will never get another job in NY again.

And the project will have to deal with massive sabotage. People will try to take it down before it gets finished. I bet 100 bucks someone tries to either burn it down or blow it up. Irony at its finest.


Maybe, maybe not we'll see. and it's not like I really care.

Your first point is a valid expression of freedom. They can offer as much money as they like. no one actually has to take the job.

Your second point... Those are crimes. Irony indeed.

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Posted 9/15/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Your second point... Those are crimes. Irony indeed.



Giving em a taste of their own medicine as the expression goes.
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Posted 9/15/10

Allhailodin wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Your second point... Those are crimes. Irony indeed.



Giving em a taste of their own medicine as the expression goes.


only if you have a broad and encompassing and ignorant understanding of 'they'. It's rather like destroying some third party's car because you don't like Rush Limbaugh.

I suppose if I'm the liberal you say I am, I should be impressed with our convergent 'core values'


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Posted 9/15/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Your second point... Those are crimes. Irony indeed.



Giving em a taste of their own medicine as the expression goes.


only if you have a broad and encompassing and ignorant understanding of 'they'. It's rather like destroying some third party's car because you don't like Rush Limbaugh.

I suppose if I'm the liberal you say I am, I should be impressed with our convergent 'core values'




They = Muslim Jihadists, Taliban, Al-Queda, so on.

Its is unknown whether or not the proprietor of this mosque has any terrorist affiliation.

He refuses to identify Al-Qaeda, Hamas and The Taliban as terrorists groups and refuses to quote the source of the funding for his mosque.

That is hugely suspicious. So he could very well have terrorist affiliations.
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