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Lazy people want government to play mommy for them.
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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 9/6/10 , edited 9/6/10
There this thing here in the US called the Bill of Rights. It makes sure people are treated fairly by the government. That all it dose It dose not guarantee a long happy life or heath care or even a retirement plain. But dose give you freedom to pick ad chose how you lead your life. To me this is the back bone to American culture being a free thinking self sufficient American. We have this system called Social security and medicare both program set up to help the old live out the last years in peace of mind and not to worry about money. One this program even levied on the tax payer is not even a guarantee that it will be there for them. The government has siphoned off this fund for many years mostly to buy votes for incumbent congress member and senators. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now both thee program will go under in red ink and will be passed on to the next generations and will not receive a penny from it. Or at least until enough senors die off so they do not have to worry about being voted out off office. Then they will end it and say it was somebody else fault. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now the lazy, Americans that should know that there government needs to be watch at all time to keep our politician in line. Trusting the government with health care now. One thing is what type of health care do you want or need. There are plenty of ways to change heath care system with out the government playing politics and stealing money from it. They proven in the past they cannot be trusted and yet I want mommy to take care of me syndrome kicks in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's many ways to fix the heath care system with out government control adding another layer of bureaucrats on top is going to drive cost up not down. The government will cut doctors fee and without tort reform the insurance premiums will go up for doctors. Doctors will move to medicine mostly cosmetic not to deal with government health care. Other will hang one and the really good doctors will move out of country. that can get paid far better in a open market. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ One thing to remember you can have a class of 400 hundred doctor graduate from medical school the top dog get honor as well but all 400 get the same degree. which doctor do you want to work on you. The standard for doctors will be lowered as well to get people into the medical field..
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Posted 9/6/10
If you say so.

I for one feel that I get good value for my health care dollar here in Canada. There's no 'upsizing', cartel pricing, cruel decisions based on profit or the god of merchantile logic: "Market Forces"

Things could be better yes. But in General, my anecdotal evidence as a worker in the health care field and user of the health care system suggests to me that _I_ for one, vastly prefer Canada's 'evil' 'government monopoly' health system as opposed to one controlled by large faceless corporations who are only responsible for their bottom line.

yes you can get bad doctors. But imagine if you will the medical, HMO or pharmacuetical equivalent of an Enron. And I think that the damage done by one rogue corporation is several times more than that of an army of 'just passed the exam' MDs.

What I'm saying is, despite your predictions of disaster we already have the things you're talking about. Have had them for over a generation and to a much greater degree, and the only reason we're looking at economic doomsday is because when you go you're going to take us with you. So... Where is your money going? since we've established it's not going to a health care system like ours?
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Posted 9/6/10
Well, this is a complicated and controversial topic. You're going to get a lot of poor people, socialists, and young people (lots of overlap there!) who want more government involvement in health care. There probably aren't a lot of well-off libertarians hanging out on CR to argue the other side.

Canada's system is not great. The waiting times are terrible. Advanced treatments are often unavailable. I think my main objection to it, unlike say in the UK, is that even if you have the money you can't just go and pay for stuff yourself "outside" the public system. Why should you prevent people from buying what they want? People come over the border all the time to get stuff done in the USA and happily pay cash for it.

I'm not sure why people always make out insurance companies and HMOs and pharmas to be the villains. I think health care providers are! Why am I being billed $20 for an aspirin in a hospital? Oh, it's because they're a non-profit and grossly overcharge me in order to pay for inflated administrative costs, regulation, and giving care for free to some fatass poor person with no cash and no insurance stuffing his face and his kids' faces full of twinkies in the ER waiting room (yes, I have seen this, it's not a generalization). If I didn't have an insurance co to bargain the "non-profit" hospital's bill down, I wouldn't even bother trying to get health care since they would rape me even if I could afford to pay fair prices out of pocket.

I'm not sure why we (in the USA) want such a socialist model of top-down centralized health care control. Has anyone here even seen the new federal health care regulation chart? http://demint.senate.gov/public/_files/2010-07-28_JEC_ObamaCare_Chart.pdf This is not a good idea. I don't care what kind of system you want, no one would ever want to agree to this.

Yes, I agree, some kind of reform is needed. Health care in the USA is very expensive, for several reasons. First of all, we're fat, out of shape, and eat like crap. Secondly, we're affluent in aggregate and thus simply have a lot of money to spend on health care (what else would you rather spend it on?). A lot of Medicare/private insurance money is being spent on keeping dying people alive for a few more months stuck full of tubes. Uninsured and poor people are getting health care in the US: badly and expensively through periodic ER visits rather than much cheaper preventative routine treatments. They can get ER for charity but not regular checkups? That just doesn't make sense. The insane cost of liability and the fact that insured people pay very little out of pocket means lots and lots of unnecessary advanced testing and treatments for very little results. When was the last time you went over cost/benefits of treatments with your doctor? Why would you? Exactly - send me for a CT scan, my toenail hurts. The tax exemption for health care insurance means that companies often grossly over-insure employees, and people have come to think of insurance=someone pays for my health care. Hello! It's insurance. On average, in aggregate, the premiums we pay will equal our costs over our lifetimes. We can't come out ahead no matter who runs it (private co or government), unless you get really really sick for a long time.

In some ways, even before Obamacare, the USA is already more socialist than many other advanced nations with health care. We have two mandatory government tax/insurance schemes: Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare is so big that it sets prices for many health care services, and badly too, I might add, greatly distorting supply & demand signals. In fact, we already HAVE a full socialized system for health care in the USA. It's called the VA (Veteran's Administration); it kind of sucks.

Overall, while I think reform is needed, I don't think single payer models like Canada or the UK are the answer. I think Germany, Japan, and Singapore all have better models, and, frankly, are probably all less socialist than what the US had even before Obamacare. Germany and Japan are basically mandatory private insurance (although often employer provided) without a complex government shadow system lurking behind. Singapore is, uh, complicated. Maybe some Sings here can explain it better than I can?

Tangential issue on drug prices: Keep in mind, for most countries outside the USA, drugs are priced far below realistic market prices because governments strong arm drug companies into selling them at cut-rate prices or threaten to (illegally and in gross violation of intellectual property laws) make generics available. People in the USA are shouldering most of the cost of pharmaceutical development for the entire world on their own. So the next time you get some cheap drugs and laugh at all those suckers in the USA paying 10x more: the reason that drug exists is because we paid for it. If we all paid your prices, it wouldn't be there.
Posted 9/6/10
It's all summed up as people being weak. Where did all the discipline go? You have too many freeloaders and not enough contributors. If you are really, truly incapable of working for your own needs, then that is understandable.
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49 / F / Center of the Uni...
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Posted 9/6/10

Doji_Star wrote:

I think my main objection to it, unlike say in the UK, is that even if you have the money you can't just go and pay for stuff yourself "outside" the public system. Why should you prevent people from buying what they want? People come over the border all the time to get stuff done in the USA and happily pay cash for it.



So .. They CAN...

also the reason we cannot have a system with extra fees for extra services is because of NAFTA. Despite the fact that whenever we take a trade issue to NAFTA and get a ruling in our favour and the US goes.. "Na.. we'll keep that tariff thank you." We know what will happen if the shoe was on the other foot.

If we turn health care, even in part, into a commodity in Canada, Then under NAFTA our public branch of the health care system becomes a 'subsidy' which American companies can then try order us to dismantle under threat of violation of the Trade Agreement. Then we get the American model of medicine shoved down our throat. Tell me how bad it sucks all you like. I think we DO get better bang for our buck for our health care dollar. And on a personal level I'm mostly pleased with my health care.






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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 9/6/10
I trust market force with some rewriting the rules. On would be health care insurance can cross state line no more corporations can't what to drop health care off there book so everyone can shop for health care there will be a large market. I trust stockholder and the consumers far more than the monkeys in Washington DC they pass this trash. But it will not affect them, there a gold plated heath care coverage and ill not be on the one they think everyone else should be on. This stinks like cat-fish in the sun for a few days. IT will get were there going to ell you what you can eat and what not and so forth give them a inch they take a yard. There plenty of solid Ideals out there but government what control the more control the more power they hold on the US citizen.
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 9/6/10 , edited 9/6/10
Fuck the lazy freeloaders, I say cut all services to them, let them rot on the street corner. Either they get a job and pay for their own stuff like everyone else or they can stfu and gtfo.

Get a job or gtfo.
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Posted 9/6/10

Allhailodin wrote:

Fuck the lazy freeloaders, I say cut all services to them, let them rot on the street corner. Either they get a job and pay for their own stuff like everyone else or they can stfu and gtfo.

Get a job or gtfo.


I have a job and have already GTFO since I'm not an American. I just find it annoying when people try to tell us the moon is made of green cheese when there is an astronaut in the room.

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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 9/6/10
From 12 in my thirties I never had a 40 hour a week job 50 to 100 hours in a week correction 40 when in junior high and it was you had to be 14 and could not work more the 20 or less hours in a week. But there were plenty of times did more than forty. Child labor law were not enforced much with one owner operator restaurants.But I do now that we can do other thing and keep the goverment out.
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 9/6/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:

Fuck the lazy freeloaders, I say cut all services to them, let them rot on the street corner. Either they get a job and pay for their own stuff like everyone else or they can stfu and gtfo.

Get a job or gtfo.


I have a job and have already GTFO since I'm not an American. I just find it annoying when people try to tell us the moon is made of green cheese when there is an astronaut in the room.



If you have a job and pay your taxes than your no freeloader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeloader

My point being, your not entitled to anything simply because you exist, the only thing your entitled to is air.

People act like I(I being a tax payer) should pay for their health care, and their college expenses, and their shit, fuck that, you can go get a job and pay for your own stuff like the rest of us have to.

If people want some health care then they can go get a job and go buy some like the rest of us have to.

Taxes are already ridiculously high without having to support lazy freeloaders.
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Posted 9/6/10
I suppose that's one way to look at it. We have different philosophies and outlooks on life. Vive la difference!

Funny though, we've had evil socialised medicine for over a generation now. and it seems to work for us. Tarakelly's insistance that such policies are certain doom. Irritate me.
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Posted 9/6/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

I suppose that's one way to look at it. We have different philosophies and outlooks on life. Vive la difference!

Funny though, we've had evil socialised medicine for over a generation now. and it seems to work for us. Tarakelly's insistance that such policies are certain doom. Irritate me.


I knew an English guy who had told me that in Europe they have Socialized medicine, and that while people may be insured, they are constantly being denied access to that care. And that people in Europe come here to the US to pay cash to get the care that their socialized medicine so graciously denied them.

And medicines in other parts of the world are so cheep because they are under priced. We foot the bill for them.

Also those medicines wouldn't even exist in the first place without US drug companies spending their dollars developing them. Same goes with most other medical technology. Most medical technology / new treatments comes from the R&&D that US medical companies do.
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Posted 9/7/10 , edited 9/7/10

Allhailodin wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

I suppose that's one way to look at it. We have different philosophies and outlooks on life. Vive la difference!

Funny though, we've had evil socialised medicine for over a generation now. and it seems to work for us. Tarakelly's insistance that such policies are certain doom. Irritate me.


I knew an English guy who had told me that in Europe they have Socialized medicine, and that while people may be insured, they are constantly being denied access to that care. And that people in Europe come here to the US to pay cash to get the care that their socialized medicine so graciously denied them.

And medicines in other parts of the world are so cheep because they are under priced. We foot the bill for them.

Also those medicines wouldn't even exist in the first place without US drug companies spending their dollars developing them. Same goes with most other medical technology. Most medical technology / new treatments comes from the R&&D that US medical companies do.


You make some good points although to be fair, most R&D are now done by subsidiary companies under employ by US companies overseas, notably, Canada, India, Japan, China and Singapore. And where research in drugs and pharmaceutical are concerned, (and even in businesses), the ones holding the patents are drugs and pharmaceuticals companies in US. Its pretty difficult for other independent companies from other countries without violating them. And these companies don't just have patents for drugs that they have researched and invented for but even drugs not yet thought of or possible. And where drugs in less developed countries are cheaper not purely from the generosity of drug companies but by subsidies and grants from government and donations from charitable organizations.

PS: You be surprised to know that the drug and pharmaceutical industry consists of both American and European companies and not as American dominated as one may lead to believe.
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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 9/7/10
Well if you have a illness the US is the best place to get treated for it. With nationalized health government controlled it been flush down the toilet. now are health care is 1/6 of the economy if I Remember right and you wounder why politicians can not wait to get there greedy little fingers on it. We only fourteen trillion in debt do to this so called people of honer integrity. I all most choked on that one.
Posted 9/7/10
i can care less anymore, I never asked or wanted to be on medicare/food stamps.... i don't care what my mental health "status" is I do not think that I deserve them.... I would rather be dead now then keep relaying on fucking handouts all the time.
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