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My concerns about the world
Posted 9/17/10 , edited 9/17/10

gal69lag wrote:




Am I talking about my religious teaching here? No, really! Why do you keep bringing up the fact that I am Muslim? Let's assume I was not Muslim, how would you answer my question? And you know, you love pointing out how I don't answer your questions when you are doing the exact same thing.


But since you've brought it up anyways, westerners see it as gender inequality because Muslim women are encouraged to wear covered clothes. Muslim women don't see this as gender inequality, so why is it bothering you guys so much?
In what other way is there gender inequality? Is there a rule that women can't work? No, there isn't. Is there a rule that women should only stay at home and take care of kids? No, there isn't.

Oh and if you're planning to bring up the way women were treated centuries ago (being buried alive etc), that was before Islam had spread, and even after Islam, some Arabs still continued to do it because it was part of their culture. You do know what culture is right? Last I checked the reason why Canada has music and art as part of their culture has nothing to do with religion.
Because Islamic teaching is the fundamental discourse within your Muslim state:

Although the Qur'an views women and men to be equal in human dignity, this spiritual or ethical equality has not been reflected in most Muslim laws. For example, women do not have equal rights to make independent decisions about choice of (marriage) partner, getting a divorce and custody of their children. Reformists and feminists have challenged women’s lack of rights and lack of control over their own lives in Muslim laws through the various techniques as in the section ‘Framework for Progressive Islam’.

Central to this challenge has been the reinterpretation of Qur'anic verses which seemingly privilege men over women and reinforce gender roles. Qur'an verse 4.34, which refers to men as ‘guardians’ (qawamun) (over women), has been used to justify gender roles and male privilege over women. (For details of this and other verses see Wadud, Hassan & Mernissi). Reformist and feminist scholars have argued that the concept of guardianship has formed the basis of particular ‘gendered’ roles in Muslim societies. Women are often expected to be obedient wives and mothers staying within the family environment and men are expected to be protectors and caretakers of the family (Hassan, Wadud, Barlas).

These scholars have explored how verse 4.34 has been interpreted and used to limit women’s autonomy, freedom of movement and access to economic opportunities and independence. They believe that the concept of ‘guardianship’ only meant to make sure that a woman who is bearing and nurturing children, is provided for (by her husband) whilst undertaking this task. Feminist scholars believe that this economic safeguard has been extended through the concept of guardianship to create a rigid division of gender roles and social control of men over women (Hassan, Wadud, Yamani). This extension of male ‘guardianship’ over women has become embodied in Muslim laws and is embedded in Muslim societies.

One of the key reasons suggested for justifying male guardianship over women within the family and in society at large, is the idea that female sexuality needs to be controlled (Mernissi, Dunne, Stowasser - see the section on ‘Women’s Sexuality and Islam’). The concept of guardianship, rigid gender roles and male control over women’s sexuality are also tools to impose and enforce heterosexuality.(citation)
Don't forget, your Islamic teaching is a collection of ideologies that not only justifies the Muslim social status quote, but it further indicates an ideal Muslim society.

Also, I'm dealing with the facts here, thereby your hypothetical statement won't fly when it's not based on the fact that you are involuntary trying to be a good Muslim in your own words. And my critical analysis leads me to think that your Islamic religion doesn't quite makes you feel spiritually uplifting as a Muslim woman.


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

That brings up an interesting point. How much of what get's attributed to Islam is not so much a product of Islam but of the cultures where Islam is dominant religiously. Is this an important distinction. If it's a cultural aspect but get couched by it's practictioners in terms of god, is it still a cultural practice?
Before the enlightenment movement of the West, religious teaching based on traditional ideologies had always been the moral and ethical guidance of what's culturally defined as the social norms. However because the contradiction of how the teaching itself justified immoral, unethical, and what's now modernly considered as antisocial behaviors such as rape, torture, war, slavery, and even genocide in the name of God(s). Western thinkers and philosophers had to go by a new approach on what's objectively moral and ethical for obvious reason, and the result is the practice of separation from the church and the states.
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Posted 9/17/10
Dom that's all very well, but it sounds like a pat way to blame Islam for the perceived 'sins' of Islamic cultures. There is a another cultural factor to consider. Islam started among Arabs in Arabia but has grown beyond that particular ethnic border. Is a complaint between some followers of the faith of an "Arabs first" mentality a product of the faith or the culture in which it was given birth? Likewise what other attitudes and practices might be unfairly attributed to Islam.
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Posted 9/17/10
I'd advise you to calm down. Getting yourself into a tizzy with all of the current 'messes' that are on center stage right now, doesn't increase your capacity to create change - it induces nervous breakdowns.

If you want something to worry about, go read some books by Noam Chomsky - read about the stuff you will never hear about via mass media. Uh, on second though - don't.

lol who the fulk calls you a socialist? What year is it again? >.<

Posted 9/17/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Dom that's all very well, but it sounds like a pat way to blame Islam for the perceived 'sins' of Islamic cultures. There is a another cultural factor to consider. Islam started among Arabs in Arabia but has grown beyond that particular ethnic border. Is a complaint between some followers of the faith of an "Arabs first" mentality a product of the faith or the culture in which it was given birth? Likewise what other attitudes and practices might be unfairly attributed to Islam.
Well the irony is that the explanation won't be coming from the collective ideologies, but from the religious individuals' own personal preferences. Once we consider religious teaching is only a social movement with cultural elements.
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Posted 9/17/10
The other ironic thing Is I think we've hijacked poor Amersfoort's thread.
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Posted 9/17/10

DomFortress wrote:


gal69lag wrote:




Am I talking about my religious teaching here? No, really! Why do you keep bringing up the fact that I am Muslim? Let's assume I was not Muslim, how would you answer my question? And you know, you love pointing out how I don't answer your questions when you are doing the exact same thing.


But since you've brought it up anyways, westerners see it as gender inequality because Muslim women are encouraged to wear covered clothes. Muslim women don't see this as gender inequality, so why is it bothering you guys so much?
In what other way is there gender inequality? Is there a rule that women can't work? No, there isn't. Is there a rule that women should only stay at home and take care of kids? No, there isn't.

Oh and if you're planning to bring up the way women were treated centuries ago (being buried alive etc), that was before Islam had spread, and even after Islam, some Arabs still continued to do it because it was part of their culture. You do know what culture is right? Last I checked the reason why Canada has music and art as part of their culture has nothing to do with religion.
Because Islamic teaching is the fundamental discourse within your Muslim state:

Although the Qur'an views women and men to be equal in human dignity, this spiritual or ethical equality has not been reflected in most Muslim laws. For example, women do not have equal rights to make independent decisions about choice of (marriage) partner, getting a divorce and custody of their children. Reformists and feminists have challenged women’s lack of rights and lack of control over their own lives in Muslim laws through the various techniques as in the section ‘Framework for Progressive Islam’.

Central to this challenge has been the reinterpretation of Qur'anic verses which seemingly privilege men over women and reinforce gender roles. Qur'an verse 4.34, which refers to men as ‘guardians’ (qawamun) (over women), has been used to justify gender roles and male privilege over women. (For details of this and other verses see Wadud, Hassan & Mernissi). Reformist and feminist scholars have argued that the concept of guardianship has formed the basis of particular ‘gendered’ roles in Muslim societies. Women are often expected to be obedient wives and mothers staying within the family environment and men are expected to be protectors and caretakers of the family (Hassan, Wadud, Barlas).

These scholars have explored how verse 4.34 has been interpreted and used to limit women’s autonomy, freedom of movement and access to economic opportunities and independence. They believe that the concept of ‘guardianship’ only meant to make sure that a woman who is bearing and nurturing children, is provided for (by her husband) whilst undertaking this task. Feminist scholars believe that this economic safeguard has been extended through the concept of guardianship to create a rigid division of gender roles and social control of men over women (Hassan, Wadud, Yamani). This extension of male ‘guardianship’ over women has become embodied in Muslim laws and is embedded in Muslim societies.

One of the key reasons suggested for justifying male guardianship over women within the family and in society at large, is the idea that female sexuality needs to be controlled (Mernissi, Dunne, Stowasser - see the section on ‘Women’s Sexuality and Islam’). The concept of guardianship, rigid gender roles and male control over women’s sexuality are also tools to impose and enforce heterosexuality.(citation)
Don't forget, your Islamic teaching is a collection of ideologies that not only justifies the Muslim social status quote, but it further indicates an ideal Muslim society.

Also, I'm dealing with the facts here, thereby your hypothetical statement won't fly when it's not based on the fact that you are involuntary trying to be a good Muslim in your own words. And my critical analysis leads me to think that your Islamic religion doesn't quite makes you feel spiritually uplifting as a Muslim woman.


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

That brings up an interesting point. How much of what get's attributed to Islam is not so much a product of Islam but of the cultures where Islam is dominant religiously. Is this an important distinction. If it's a cultural aspect but get couched by it's practictioners in terms of god, is it still a cultural practice?
Before the enlightenment movement of the West, religious teaching based on traditional ideologies had always been the moral and ethical guidance of what's culturally defined as the social norms. However because the contradiction of how the teaching itself justified immoral, unethical, and what's now modernly considered as antisocial behaviors such as rape, torture, war, slavery, and even genocide in the name of God(s). Western thinkers and philosophers had to go by a new approach on what's objectively moral and ethical for obvious reason, and the result is the practice of separation from the church and the states.



Heh...I want to say something, but I'm not going to say it because then I'm going to be accused of having a "bad attitude" again.

HAHA! Spiritually uplifting! Wow! So now you think that perhaps my Islamic teaching makes me feel bad about the way I look or how you said, having a 'lack of passion'. Aww, boo-hoo how sad, no? You know not everything I say has a 'deeper meaning' that links to my religion, so stop thinking too much into it.
Posted 9/17/10 , edited 9/17/10

gal69lag wrote:




Heh...I want to say something, but I'm not going to say it because then I'm going to be accused of having a "bad attitude" again.

HAHA! Spiritually uplifting! Wow! So now you think that perhaps my Islamic teaching makes me feel bad about the way I look or how you said, having a 'lack of passion'. Aww, boo-hoo how sad, no? You know not everything I say has a 'deeper meaning' that links to my religion, so stop thinking too much into it.
Well here's another contradiction of yours, as in how would you discover spiritual beauty without introspection?


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

The other ironic thing Is I think we've hijacked poor Amersfoort's thread.
Quite the opposite, I think throughout our discourses we're objectifying his main concern about "hate and intolerance", by we discover the cultural origin of this attitude within traditional ideologies that are oppressive in their own nature.
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Posted 9/17/10
With all the people that want to save the world they impede progress and very seldom have answers for them. So they turn to corporation and blame them for not having them or done enough research. So we stop harvesting certain hard woods, that OK now Mahogany is cheaper to use and no government intervention. I do wounder with allot of third world nation that will flag a tanker ship or a cargo ship that would never pass inspection in most modern nation go down to the deepest parts of oceans with chemical wast. To strict of laws has repercussion as well, and wast disposal companies have bad track records for this stuff.
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