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expelling the palestinians out?
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Posted 9/16/10
is it true that america and europe supported the creation of a jewish state in palestinian soil? If so, why?
Is this the cause of hate today in the international community?
Posted 9/16/10
It is only one cause of hate, since we know that there are so many more. No matter how well contrived a system for keeping peace might be, the impulsiveness of human beings will rule over it. The heart can desire both blood and love.
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Posted 9/16/10

Aztecnology wrote:

It is only one cause of hate, since we know that there are so many more. No matter how well contrived a system for keeping peace might be, the impulsiveness of human beings will rule over it. The heart can desire both blood and love.


Its our nature to hate.
Posted 9/16/10

Allhailodin wrote:


Aztecnology wrote:

It is only one cause of hate, since we know that there are so many more. No matter how well contrived a system for keeping peace might be, the impulsiveness of human beings will rule over it. The heart can desire both blood and love.


Its our nature to hate.


Just as cats will typically hate dogs. Or the battle of the sexes. Or perhaps the battle of freewill versus slavery.

If something cannot be grasped intellectually, then the only recourse is hate. Destroying what makes you look stupid is one of our finer points.
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Posted 9/16/10 , edited 9/16/10

alupihan45 wrote:

is it true that america and europe supported the creation of a jewish state in palestinian soil? If so, why?
Is this the cause of hate today in the international community?


Yes and No.

were Europe and American deeply involved in the creation of Israel yes. Was it a case of "allright all you palestinians pack your bags we're moving these Jewish people in." Absolutely Not.


The wording of your question suggests you've been talking to some biased sources. I suggest you check out some of my recent posts to the Israel and Palestine thread.


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Posted 9/16/10

alupihan45 wrote:

is it true that america and europe supported the creation of a jewish state in palestinian soil? If so, why?
Is this the cause of hate today in the international community?


Prior to say... 1850 the world we know today and the nations we know were vastly different creatures with different borders, cultures and views on the world than we know today.

Germany wasn't a country it was a random collection of smaller princedoms, free cities, Duchies and other small states. Many of them alligned with the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Although by 1850 The King of one of those states (Prussia) and his famous advisor and hatchet man, Bismark, were well on their way to creating modern Germany.

Tiny countries in Europe controlled VAST colonial holding in over all of Africa and Asia. Every where you went somplace in the the rest of the world was owned and operated by say The Dutch, France, and of Course Great Britain. "The sun never sets on the British Empire" was a poetic way of saying "Britian has colonies in EVERY SINGLE Timezone" (of course timezones weren't evented back that. A canadian didn't get a Nobel Prize for inventing standard time until the mid - late 1860's)

And if a country didn't explicitly go around 'owning' other lands like the European powers. It could and did plant it's flag there and claim a 'sphere of influence' As the USA did with most of south america and the Phillipines.

We are the inheritors of that world, which really didn't start to change until WWII.

More to follow If you think it's of use.


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Posted 9/16/10 , edited 9/16/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:

is it true that america and europe supported the creation of a jewish state in palestinian soil? If so, why?
Is this the cause of hate today in the international community?


Yes and No.

were Europe and American deeply involved in the creation of Israel yes. Was it a case of "allright all you palestinians pack your bags we're moving these Jewish people in." Absolutely Not.


The wording of your question suggests you've been talking to some biased sources. I suggest you check out some of my recent posts to the Israel and Palestine thread.




yeah. The source is baised but i think it wouldn't hurt to check if it is true. This issue is new to me. I'm in the 'asking' phase. Btw, why does america and europe get involve with that?
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Posted 9/16/10 , edited 9/16/10

alupihan45 wrote:



yeah. The source is baised but i think it wouldn't hurt to check if it is true. This issue is new to me. I'm in the 'asking' phase. Btw, why does america and europe get involve with that?


See the Post Directly above. Europe and America pretty much owned the rest of the world. It was the age of sprawling empires.

European nations didn't take over china, they just kept it drugged up and ineffectual. Britain signed a 99 year 'lease' for Hong Kong, France just took a couple of other islands. And businessmen from those countries made themselves fortunes doing to china with opium, what we frown on south American drug lords for doing to US with cocaine.

The middle east and a significant portion of the Balkans belonged to the Ailing and failing Ottoman Empire. It had been a major force in the middle ages and renaisence and probably the source of some fear of Islam. This Turkish empire did things like taking all the young christian boys out of the villages it conquered and turning them into Jannisaries (Slave/soldiers and administrators)

By world war one it had become known as the Sick man of Europe. Other empires were wittling away at it's holdings, somewhere in the late 1700's it became unable to service it's massive debts and went through an economic meltdown that made 1930's Germany look like a party by comparison.

The ottoman's fought on the side of Autria Hungary and Germany in Word War I, Lost and had their colonies divided up.

Britain now 'owned' Egypt, Palestian and a region Called Trans - Jordan. France had Algiers and Tunisia and Syria or something like that.

The Second World War brought more lands into French and British hands (mostly, and mostly British). But it also forced a re thinking of colonial mindsets. Seeing the Nazi's apply colonial logic and treatment to Other Europeans made it easy for new powers (like the united states) shame Britain and France into giving up their colonies. Also The British had used the Majority Arabs and the existing jewish population (There was one THERE already. it wasn't an invasion of purely arab land) extensively in the fighting. and the officers on the ground were attached to the populations they had worked with. General Orde Wingate is credit with teaching the Haganah (which became the IDF) 'everything they know' and General 'Pasha' Glubb left to the British Army to join Trans-Jordan's Arab -legion Credited during the first Arab-Israeli war with being the most effective and professional army in the conflict.



More to follow.




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Posted 9/16/10
so palestinians should have no say with this issue about their territory?
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Posted 9/16/10 , edited 9/16/10
The British rule of Palestine had never been peaceful. There had been Arab revolts in the 30's against (among other things) the increasing numbers of Jewish immigrants arriving as they fled Germany and were turned away from every other country in the world.

Even Canada's explicit policy towards Jews as articulated by our Immigration minister at the time was "to keep too many Jews from entering the country" and "None is too many"

They had NO other place to go.

-----

immediately post war, there was trouble between the Majority Arabs and the concentrated minority Jews. Attacks, reprisals, counter reprisals convinced the world that the to populations could not live together (there is plenty of historical evidence that it was the Arabs trying to drive out the Jews that initiated this violance. but also that the Jews were EAGER co-beligerents)

So... in 1948 a UN resolution was made. Based on a few plebiscites. to divide up palestine into jewish and Arab sections and treat them as two different countries. (the fairness of the descision. the right of the rest of the world (mostly) europe to even make such a descision are both debatable points)

----

This "Peaceful Solution" didn't last. The Proto-Isrealis weren't happy with it. but at least they had a sort of a country of their own now. Even if it would be a vulnerable archipelago in a sea of Arab anger.

The Arabs not just in Palestine but throughout the middle east, EVERY COUNTRY SURROUNDING ISRAEL flatly rejected it. and as soon as the british officially left, Israel was under attack. Syria Jordan Egypt all sent forces to aid the Palestinian Arabs in driving out the Jews.

They didn't get driven out. they connected the dots of their vulnerable archipelago into a viable country. And everytime since when the Arabs attacked they grew a little bigger. They also did some attacking of their own. When the French and British wanted to continue to control the Suez Canel The allied with Israel and encouraged them to fight egypt. France and Britain were forced to abandon their colonial aspirations in egypt by the US. But Israel kept the land it took in that war too.

...

So as you can see it's a LOT more complicated than. "They invaded and drove us out"

You can Wikipedia each of the Arab-israeli wars and get an lot more detail.

Note that after assasinating King Abulliah in 1951 and threatening the rule of King Hussein in the 1970's that the Palestinians were also kicked out of Jordan. (which at one time controlled a tiny piece of Palestine) Black September operated as much against Jordan as it did against Isreal.

Nothing is black and white. and people who insist that it is. Weather they are right wing americans advocating war on all Muslims or Palestinian Hamas members who think blowing up school busses will get them closer to their idea of the 'Right of Return" are both just the fuel for conflict and grief.


And further conflict.

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Posted 9/16/10

alupihan45 wrote:

so palestinians should have no say with this issue about their territory?


Should? or didn't? and NO say is an exagerration.

They also tried to do it the old fashioned way, By force. and have failed miserably everytime. even with the backing of every country in the region.



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Posted 9/16/10 , edited 9/16/10
Now they want us to feel sorry for them because They had done to them what they tried to do to someone else. And failed.

But you never hear that side of it from those who want to paint Isreal as monstrous villians.

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Posted 9/16/10
I think the hate for the US came later.

In the 50's the US was making sure the old colonial powers .. weren't.

(this is a bit of hypocrisy because while they were making France and Britain let go of the Middle East, they still clung to the Phillipines and let United Fruit, control a lot of south America)

But it was the US that made Britain and France back down from taking the Suez canal from Egypt.

The US earned it's hate from the middle east by backing/controlling a regional super power and suporting Israel.

Israel -the US weapons and 'aid' this was as much because the Soviets were funding and arming Syria and Egypt as from any personal like of the Israelis. (Not that they didn't like the Israeli's but I don't think they would have given them near as much support if the guys attacking them weren't doing it with soviet support)

Iran - the US propped up the Ruler of Iran (The Shah) for many years. The CIA trained his secret police, it was a brutal, corrupt regime.
When Iranians overthrew the shah, their hate was directed as much against the Americans as the shah himself. Of course now Iran is a right wing theocracy that's also repressing it's own people and behaving brutally. but at least it's not under the American thumb.

The Americans chose Iran because it was the Regional Superpower. when Iran became an enemy Both the US and the Sunni Arab nations saw Iraq as an important tool to contain the regional superpower.

The vast majority of Shia Muslims are concentrated in Iran and Iraq. The Sunni Faith occupies the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and .. I think... yemen.

Saddam Husein and his Bath'sts were Sunnis. So that while Iraq is 75% Shia, it was controlled by Sunni's and in the Sunni camp.

The idea of Iran expanding to include Iraq, Growing even larger and also removing the buffer state between them was Terrifying to the Suadi's and Kuwaiti's etc... The US in term didn't want the super power it no longer controlled getting to big.

Everyone poured money into Saddam until he overvalued his worth and ticked off The Saudi's and Kuwaitis. They called in their debts to him "payment due yesterday please." and he said "Fuck you" and invaded Kuwait. Hence Gulf War 1.

Now after having a couple of decades where it wasn't pouring people and equipment into a nasty trench war of attrition Iran is starting to show it's true economic and martial muscle and it's scaring some people again.

Meanwhile the Muslims who lived well under the Shah are the parents of my neighbours here in Toronto. So when Haminjad. Rigged the election and started suppressing the resulting protests. They were out marching on our streets every day. It was ironic that some of the flags waved over those peaceful but ultimately futile marches were Iranian Flags with a lion in the keystone.

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Posted 9/16/10

Aztecnology wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Aztecnology wrote:

It is only one cause of hate, since we know that there are so many more. No matter how well contrived a system for keeping peace might be, the impulsiveness of human beings will rule over it. The heart can desire both blood and love.


Its our nature to hate.


Just as cats will typically hate dogs. Or the battle of the sexes. Or perhaps the battle of freewill versus slavery.

If something cannot be grasped intellectually, then the only recourse is hate. Destroying what makes you look stupid is one of our finer points.


Sometimes you hate something because you grasp it intellectually.
Posted 9/17/10

alupihan45 wrote:

is it true that america and europe supported the creation of a jewish state in palestinian soil? If so, why?
Is this the cause of hate today in the international community?


This is no secret. Jewish power has ridiculously overwhelming representation and dominating voice in America and Europe enough to continuously persuade those governments to support and throw money into Israel and next to nothing for anyone else. It's pretty much the root cause behind the hatred towards Israel and Western foreign policy in general.
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