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Socialism
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 9/29/10

amersfoort wrote:

How does Physical work not deserve a large paycheck?
These people work their ass off, infact most of them have back problems etc because of their hard work, how does that not deserve a good paycheck?


Is moving boxes with a forklift in an air conditioned wearhouse deserving of the same pay that a restaurant manager or owner gets ?


Of course we should try to get rid of the parasites but sometimes you have to take the bad with the good.


Then impose 3-5 week max unemployment benefits ~ after that you get nothing ~ people will look for a job instead of just sitting at home.


Yes it is how it works, my example (btw have you given a example/proof yet?) about the facilitie workers that barely make more money then welfare still work very hard, while it is not for the money.


No it is not how it works, a large house is not a right. A home is not an entitlement, nor should it be, if you want a roof over your head you need a job, as it should be.
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26 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 9/29/10

Allhailodin wrote:


amersfoort wrote:

How does Physical work not deserve a large paycheck?
These people work their ass off, infact most of them have back problems etc because of their hard work, how does that not deserve a good paycheck?


Is moving boxes with a forklift in an air conditioned wearhouse deserving of the same pay that a restaurant manager or owner gets ?


Of course we should try to get rid of the parasites but sometimes you have to take the bad with the good.


Then impose 3-5 week max unemployment benefits ~ after that you get nothing ~ people will look for a job instead of just sitting at home.


Yes it is how it works, my example (btw have you given a example/proof yet?) about the facilitie workers that barely make more money then welfare still work very hard, while it is not for the money.


No it is not how it works, a large house is not a right. A home is not an entitlement, nor should it be, if you want a roof over your head you need a job, as it should be.


I would love to see you work in such a facilitie, you really really are underestimating their hard work, but I guess that is the difference between us, you look down on them, I look up to them.
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 9/29/10 , edited 9/29/10

amersfoort wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


amersfoort wrote:

How does Physical work not deserve a large paycheck?
These people work their ass off, infact most of them have back problems etc because of their hard work, how does that not deserve a good paycheck?


Is moving boxes with a forklift in an air conditioned wearhouse deserving of the same pay that a restaurant manager or owner gets ?


Of course we should try to get rid of the parasites but sometimes you have to take the bad with the good.


Then impose 3-5 week max unemployment benefits ~ after that you get nothing ~ people will look for a job instead of just sitting at home.


Yes it is how it works, my example (btw have you given a example/proof yet?) about the facilitie workers that barely make more money then welfare still work very hard, while it is not for the money.


No it is not how it works, a large house is not a right. A home is not an entitlement, nor should it be, if you want a roof over your head you need a job, as it should be.


I would love to see you work in such a facilitie, you really really are underestimating their hard work, but I guess that is the difference between us, you look down on them, I look up to them.



I so not look down on them, I understand perfectly well that without the people at the bottom nothing gets done.

But you don't pay people based on merit. You pay someone based on the value of their job.

Physical labor ~ Anyone can do it ~ Worker are replaceable ~ Persons individual value to employer is low ~ Lower pay.
Nuclear engineer ~ Only a few select people kan do it ~ Worker is not replaceable ~ Person has high value to employer ~ Higher pay.
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65 / M / Croatia
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Posted 9/29/10

Allhailodin wrote:


blancer wrote:


Sorry to butt in, but I had to say this: someone who grew up in America can not comprehend what he is talking about and how does that work. While I lived in US I had few verbal fights trying to explain that system, to no avail. Few examples:

1. Yes there are people who abuse the system, but they are mostly immigrants (no true european will say it, but thats how it is).
2. That system ensures that the worker will get more than minimum wage (it is what he gets when unemployed for a while).
3. of course, you have to prove that you cannot work (illness disability,...) or have lousy living conditions etc to get social help. So watching tv and playing video games is out of question when you can not afford either.

And actually his analogy works great, and that is the heart of communism: why do we even need CEO and all the complexities of "free market", when only few people get really rich but everybody needs to work? How is that paper shufflers and politicians earn more then people who actually produce goods (like grow food for example)? To keep it simple: only thing that changed since Marx's time are living conditions of working class. And that is all.


We need the CEO because without the CEO all the people who work for him are now unemployed. Without businesses there are no jobs.

Since you have to have an economy there will always be those who make more than others, there will always be rich and always be poor. So long as an economy exists. And no society can exist without an economy of some kind. No system exists that can eliminate rich and eliminate poor.

Its only natural that business owners make more than the workers, all the profits are his since its his business. Someone who only does physical labor doesn't deserve to make as much as a manager or the owner, for without the owner, everybody who works for that company is now unemployed.

Besides we need companies like Intel and AMD, Nvidia, ect because without them we'd have no computers or graphics cards, these companies are responsible for advancing our technology, without them our technology would still be back in 1900's.

Without Caterpillar or Ingersoll Rand(Bobcat) producing and advancing farming equipment(tractors, harvesters, ect), farming today would still be done by hand and production would be 1000 times less than it is today.

Just to name a few examples. Many more tho.

IN fact its because of the free markets that technology such as farming tools advances as it does, if the economy was a state run economy, the state would be producing tractors, but with no competition, there is no reason for the state to advance them. Free markets make competition between manufacturers, people want to buy the "Latest and the Greatest" equipment, so manufactures pour monies and resources into developing newer, better, faster and more efficient equipment(this also applies to other things like tvs and cell phones and shit) so people will buy them.


I know and I agree, I was just pointing out how his analogy works great in relations to socialism discussed here. Because in true socialism (is it communism, then?) people would own the factory, CEO would be director - the most competent dude of the bunch, but when doing business he would have to bow down to decision made by executive committee made by representatives of all workers. And there wouldnt be very large difference in paychecks.
As for me, I did all sorts of jobs, and manual labor is as hard as office labor. Now I am editor in chief, but sometimes I still miss the old days when I was doing manual work. Sometimes it was just more satisfying.
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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 9/30/10
[q


Hiring a CEO was very simple back in the 70's Unfortunately are congress messed around with the Hiring and tied stock performance to the CEO pay. At this point in was a conflict of interest for the CEO tying pay to stocks many marginal one figured out who to pump up the stocks value before leaving. Lee Iacocca was the first that made this headlines. This kind of short term fix can ruin a company in now time, the board of directors have many conflicts as well. Personally works are at the bottom of the picking order. The way stock are spread out in investment plans are also to blame not any real representation. I also think that criminal charges should be leveled at temporary stock pump ups. a good CEO will make a corporation grow and all benefit from it. There should be a pay as you go plan when benefits are promised to employees. this passing the buck down to the next CEO is a major handy cap. plenty of reform on a long term is what needed and keeping congress out is a must. There a major conflict of interest for them as well.
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Posted 10/1/10 , edited 10/1/10

tarakelly wrote:

[q



Hiring a CEO was very simple back in the 70's Unfortunately are congress messed around with the Hiring and tied stock performance to the CEO pay. At this point in was a conflict of interest for the CEO tying pay to stocks many marginal one figured out who to pump up the stocks value before leaving. Lee Iacocca was the first that made this headlines. This kind of short term fix can ruin a company in now time, the board of directors have many conflicts as well. Personally works are at the bottom of the picking order. The way stock are spread out in investment plans are also to blame not any real representation. I also think that criminal charges should be leveled at temporary stock pump ups. a good CEO will make a corporation grow and all benefit from it. There should be a pay as you go plan when benefits are promised to employees. this passing the buck down to the next CEO is a major handy cap. plenty of reform on a long term is what needed and keeping congress out is a must. There a major conflict of interest for them as well.


I do have one question. What is going to motivate and dictate those reforms? Who is going to enforce them?
Big corporations can be just as damaging to the public good when they are out of control as big government. But if you've got one of the two how do you control it?


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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 10/1/10
I thing people need to remember all corporations are not bad. For people to demonize all corporation or Wall Street (a thing without a face) and easer to do so if you do not understand how it works. The old David vs. Goliath plays well for the media great press for yellow journalism. However there can be steps taken to protect the corporation from the few that will destroy it to put money in their pocket Now the stock market is a game of chance but overall it dose beat inflation and most safe investment.------------------------------------------------------------ I would like to see some basic changes mostly to book keeping and lending institutions. 1) No bank can hold over 6% of the American wealth. The 80/90s allowed banking across state line that was mistake due to lack of understanding just how big bank and other intuition could get. Fanny May Freddy Mac and other corporation with government oversight put pressure on lending intuitions to make less than desirable loans if they did not make this loan they could be cut off from subprime loan from these governments over sighted corporation. These are the toxic asset that got bundle up and sold through the world and many banking institution did not even care because of the grantee loan by the Freddy and Fanny. Between banking and government they messed every one over. One member in congresses was sleeping with the head of Freddy Mac and he sat on the oversight commission. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now for many other corporations a pay as you go system for benefits retirement should be emplaced. Passing the buck down the line add more cost to products in later years. This is just a bad business practice that started in pre WW2 and carried on even now. Creating holding companies to look over and manage the asset set aside for the employee protects the employee. So the union and corporation cannot touch it and will be there for the people that worked to earn it. No corporation is too big to fail, a common fact some corporation get into to many business and wind up tanking, or just bad timing not keep up with changes all sorts of reasons. This takes me back to the stock market as being a gamble way better than average but still a gamble. The banking crisis has affected many companies not directly connected but defiantly affecting all.
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49 / F / Center of the Uni...
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Posted 10/1/10

tarakelly wrote:

I thing people need to remember all corporations are not bad. For people to demonize all corporation or Wall Street (a thing without a face) and easer to do so if you do not understand how it works. The old David vs. Goliath plays well for the media great press for yellow journalism. However there can be steps taken to protect the corporation from the few that will destroy it to put money in their pocket Now the stock market is a game of chance but overall it dose beat inflation and most safe investment.------------------------------------------------------------ I would like to see some basic changes mostly to book keeping and lending institutions. 1) No bank can hold over 6% of the American wealth. The 80/90s allowed banking across state line that was mistake due to lack of understanding just how big bank and other intuition could get. Fanny May Freddy Mac and other corporation with government oversight put pressure on lending intuitions to make less than desirable loans if they did not make this loan they could be cut off from subprime loan from these governments over sighted corporation. These are the toxic asset that got bundle up and sold through the world and many banking institution did not even care because of the grantee loan by the Freddy and Fanny. Between banking and government they messed every one over. One member in congresses was sleeping with the head of Freddy Mac and he sat on the oversight commission. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now for many other corporations a pay as you go system for benefits retirement should be emplaced. Passing the buck down the line add more cost to products in later years. This is just a bad business practice that started in pre WW2 and carried on even now. Creating holding companies to look over and manage the asset set aside for the employee protects the employee. So the union and corporation cannot touch it and will be there for the people that worked to earn it. No corporation is too big to fail, a common fact some corporation get into to many business and wind up tanking, or just bad timing not keep up with changes all sorts of reasons. This takes me back to the stock market as being a gamble way better than average but still a gamble. The banking crisis has affected many companies not directly connected but defiantly affecting all.


As I said. How would you enforce those regulations?

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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 10/2/10
Part of the biggest problem is getting government out of playing political games in the free market. To me there should be senators and congress members and CEO in prison right now. This is the forth time in the last 30 years. How do you put the judge the prosecutor and criminals in jail? Who is stopping the investigation, Why are people just accepting this mess not calling out for the justice department to do its job ever one knows there money trail that could be followed up on.------------------------------------------------------The banking that can be done with regular audited and the bank would know on the balance sheet what the percentage are. Bank not crossing state lines may be the simplest way or at least in regions of the country. If dose happen it will be no a much smaller scale. There a bank regulatory system that dose exist with law enforcement powers I know they can shut down a bank and prosecute the bank personnel. We have become a true Democracy are law maker are above the law it self. Right now I really do not have a good answer I just as anger at the voters as I am the government as of now.
Posted 10/2/10

tarakelly wrote:

Right now I really do not have a good answer I just as anger at the voters as I am the government as of now.
So once again, you just rant for the sake of you ranting. When you don't even know how and why that as humans, our real economic behavior is as irrational and immoral as the monkeys. Simply because we're by a majority stupid social animals when we decide on our choice.
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54 / F / Atlanta GA
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Posted 10/2/10
DomFortress if you can even tell that i work some problems out on line to show the way i make rational decision. if your even really bother I pointed out the government is just a much to blame if not more wake up to the bull you shovel. My logic comes my own judgments not somebody else book. I will place far more trust in my basic values than a socialist trash. Well sheep run in pack to protect them selves as a whole the but there no brighter than and other kind of sheep socialist communist and true democracy by the way they can be herd off cliff as well.
Posted 10/2/10

tarakelly wrote:

DomFortress if you can even tell that i work some problems out on line to show the way i make rational decision. if your even really bother I pointed out the government is just a much to blame if not more wake up to the bull you shovel. My logic comes my own judgments not somebody else book. I will place far more trust in my basic values than a socialist trash. Well sheep run in pack to protect them selves as a whole the but there no brighter than and other kind of sheep socialist communist and true democracy by the way they can be herd off cliff as well.
Last time I checked, your own mind ran away just like any other "sheep" would. So your point is? When there's a whole nut-jobs of a group known as the Tea Party social movement organization, who're conveniently blaming everything on the US government quite like yourself, what makes you so unique or special than them?
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26 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 10/3/10
Hmm, perhaps this question has already been awnsered, but I want to ask this:
What is socialism in your eyes? And perhaps a fun question to add is: What do you think of the West-European Countries?
Posted 10/3/10 , edited 10/3/10

amersfoort wrote:

Hmm, perhaps this question has already been awnsered, but I want to ask this:
What is socialism in your eyes? And perhaps a fun question to add is: What do you think of the West-European Countries?
To me, it's a social movement that's breaking down the traditionally and culturally uphold, yet unjustly defined social economic status roles. It's the result of the enlightenment movement by questioning and subsequently challenging the preexisting social status quote, while redefining the reality of the state of human nature much differently than the religious moral hierarchy would've had it in both history and in literature, with its dualism contradiction.

As for your second question, I really don't know because I haven't visit Western-Europe for myself.
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 10/5/10 , edited 10/5/10

amersfoort wrote:

Hmm, perhaps this question has already been awnsered, but I want to ask this:
What is socialism in your eyes? And perhaps a fun question to add is: What do you think of the West-European Countries?


Socialism in my eyes is an abomination, it takes away property rights, economic rights and freedoms, personal liberties and freedoms, and takes away all incentive to better yourself.

Dunno anything about Europe execpt they havre something called a Single Market.
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