North Africa - Mid. East: Who's down with the Rebellion
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44 / M / Brooklyn, New York
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Posted 1/31/11
Who out there is overjoyed at the collapsing dictatorships in North Africa - Middle East?

I read some jerk write that Bush was right, that Muslim people wanted freedom and democracy, and it was the US's job to do it. But he's totally wrong; freedom and democracy are not something that the US army can bring. The only thing they bring is massive death, destruction and years long occupation. And torture in Abu Graib, and secret detentions.

But a rebellion in Egypt against a dictator (a vitally important US ally and provider of secret detention torture chambers), by the very Egyptian people he humiliated and ground down for 30 years, is truly the only way to win freedom and democracy.


http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january252011/egypt-protests.php

I'm very happy for the Tunisian people and look forward to the successful unfolding of events in Egypt, Jordan and Yemen. They are sick and tired of rising prices, with little or no job prospects (in Egypt, there are tons of College grads without jobs for years! Who could not protest when you've earned a medical degree but the only job you can find after college is sweeping the street!)


http://dilodemille.tumblr.com/

May all dictators end up like Nicolae Ceauşescu.

Viva la revolution!

Those are my thoughts on what going on; what are yours?
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26 / F / Evergreen, Colora...
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Posted 1/31/11
I like your thoughts. I feel pretty ignorant of what is going on right now, so I won't write out my usual more indepth thoughts.
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31 / M / WI
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Posted 1/31/11
I do listen to NPR every so often, so I'd like to say I have more content behind my opinion, but I'd be lying. I honestly tune out most of the Middle East news aside from war updates because I'm more concerned with what's happening at home in my general community than the world events I've heard lately from there. I think that freedom and democracy are good ideals that should be both protected and encouraged, but no one nation owns them, nor can they force a people to have them.

Ideals, when conveyed to a people can be analogous to the horse led to a watering hole. Even if you bring it to the watering hole, it's not guaranteed that the horse will drink, and without any other information, you don't know if the watering hole you're providing has a toxic source. I figure that the 'rebuilding' that the US has planned / is putting into practice in the Middle East is partly oppression with good-intentions, if a bit misguided.

Ultimately, regardless of the type of government a country has, there'll be corruption. Some runs deeper than others and some are more visible. Time will tell if revolution is truly a good thing.
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Posted 1/31/11
watching CNN as we speak.. complete pandemonium

isn't the "march of millions" commencing in a few hours?
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Posted 1/31/11

el_nath wrote:

Who out there is overjoyed at the collapsing dictatorships in North Africa - Middle East?

I read some jerk write that Bush was right, that Muslim people wanted freedom and democracy, and it was the US's job to do it. But he's totally wrong; freedom and democracy are not something that the US army can bring. The only thing they bring is massive death, destruction and years long occupation. And torture in Abu Graib, and secret detentions.

...

Those are my thoughts on what going on; what are yours?


First of all, we need to get our facts straight. "Freedom" and "democracy" had nothing to do with the US's involvement in the Middle East. The reason for invading Afghanistan was to deny Al Qaeda a safe haven there. This was actually planned BEFORE the September 11 attacks in 2001. Next, the war in Iraq was "officially" started because Iraq supposedly had weapons of mass destruction. Strange how everyone seemed to forget this reason when they didn't turn up.

Anyways, "freedom" and "democracy" were only touted to help justify the war to the American public - as these are values which we treasure dearly and stirs up patriotic emotions in us. The government took advantage of this (combined with the public outrage over 9/11) to get the public to support the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Next, claiming that freedom and democracy are not something that the US army can bring is also not true. The key is in how it is carried out. The occupation of Germany after WWII, for example, was INCREDIBLY successful. Germany went from being one of the poorest countries in the world (due in large part to all of the debts incurred by World War I being placed on Germany), to having one of the world's most powerful economies (they used to be ranked #2 behind the US, but I think China has overtaken them and will eventually overtake the US in a matter of years).

The Marshall plan's success was due in large part because Germany has a similar culture to the rest of the western countries, so the people were more or less able to accept the occupation. Also most of the people in Germany actually lived in fear of their country's oppression.

In the Middle East, however, the culture is too different. The people do not accept western culture on a fundamental level. They simply do not treasure the same core values as Americans do. They place a much stronger emphasis on religion and tradition, and do not especially value "freedoms" and "rights" of individuals. This disconnect is what has caused the US occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan to be received so poorly by the people in these countries.
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31 / M / WI
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Posted 1/31/11 , edited 1/31/11


I'm not saying that the US Army didn't provide opportunity. It's a fine distinction. Sometimes war, despite the brutality, can get things done that otherwise seems insurmountable or impossible otherwise (but provided enough time and willpower [albeit in some cases unendurably long], it could be pulled off without interference), but it's up to the people who have to live with it to make it a success. Not the force the provided the opportunity, despite the intentions.

Just after 9/11, I supported the war. I didn't have a voice that mattered at the time, nor was I well-informed (as many people were not), and hindsight reveals that it probably wasn't the best decision. However, despite this, opportunity for progress has been made, and people are taking ahold of that opportunity even now. Even now, it's not the US Military Forces that will make anywhere in the Middle East or otherwise successful, but it can help provide opportunity. The responsibility ultimately lies with the people who live there; both the power and the burden it entails.

America is very generous, and people recognize this. Some for good intentions, others for malicious purpose, both in the giving and receiving. There are and will always be people resistant to change, however: people who hold power and don't want to give it up, people who want to hold on to tradition, and people with stubborn religious tendencies, among others. If the support for change isn't there, or it fails to resistance, it won't happen, despite the efforts brought from afar.

EDIT: Added spoiler for space
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28 / M / Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 2/8/11
I respect you for talking about something so serious, but I wag the finger at the forum you did it at. I'd be willing to wager the collective average age of the registered members of this site is under 18, so most of them really don't have an informed opinion about what is going on in the world.


Personally I am studying Political Science and History and this is truly amazing to me. Remember a few years ago when the people of Iran were protesting the 're-election' of their president and all this was going on over there? (Internet got shut down, people were shot in the streets by the military/government employees) I am somewhat relieved that this is coming across as much more peaceful. The people are speaking out for change there, and they are apparently seeking a way to get it.

I have read some contradicting reports however that not everyone wants these changes that these hundreds of thousands of people are demanding. While I do take these 'reports' with a grain of salt (it is most likely mis information being leaked out by the government itself to make it appear it has control of the situation when in reality it doesn't).

Rambling on here now.....I hope things will get settled there soon. The food shortages/price hikes. I wouldn't wish that upon any nation/people. Hopefully their government can get over itself and realize it's people are facing famine, and start to do something about it. I suppose that would require a dictatorship change though. :shrug:
Posted 2/8/11
History in the making.
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26 / M
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Posted 2/8/11
now i can be an old man and say i lived during obama and egypt thingies
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69 / M / Limbo
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Posted 2/8/11 , edited 2/8/11
The president said he'd wouldn't run for re-election, but these motherfuckers want his ass out NAO. Good shit, I'm down with the revolution.
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17 / M / boys locker room
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Posted 2/9/11
Yay!!! Yay!!!! Egypt finally does something interesting! Oh my, I'm so happy for them! They worked to the bone for what they believed in and never gave up! Truly amazing!

Gott, I love Egyptians
Posted 2/9/11
Get down with the sickness lol jk... well it doesn't rly matter to me because even if i do or do not support them, it's not like it'll make a difference in their cause
Muppe 
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38 / M / Norway
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Posted 2/10/11
I think it is great, finaly the people of these countries are pushing for change. Mostly done in a peaceful way, or at least as peaceful as things like this can be done. This also shows that the arab world (minus the fanatics) want democracy and freedom, becouse even if our culture differ the normal person allways want freedom and a peaceful life.

Here is me hopping this lead to positive things for the arab world.
Posted 2/10/11
What you see in Egypt is just an example of what the US is trying by bits and pieces to do to the middle class American workers and legalized
citizens, only our unholy government must do it by by opening the borders, permitting millions of illegals to roam freely through our system, stealing jobs, illegally living on state and federal based food stamp and school vouchers, free rent programs, etc, while the home grown folks can't get a nickel...... because we pose no dictator, just a puppet president, dancing by the strings of his Master...
Kill the middle class, take away their jobs, foreclose their property, make them homeless, soon you have more and more squalor and for the super rich,
Utopia....or so 'they' are planning...

My heart does go with these Egyptian protesters, famine, torture.....all so familiar in this world...I just hope what they do not get is
Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum....garbage in...garbage out...
I especially hate the torture of human being......this man was tortured to death for posting from Egypt a video or corrupt police
sharing the spoils of a drug bust....


But yet the US hand reek of blood after the horror of 911...
GITMO.....
do you really believe some pathological sheet head named Bin Laden masterminded that whole devilish plot???

I do not..
and I wonder this,
If WE were to take it to the streets like the hippies of the 60's did about Viet Nam,,,,,,would Egypt, 'stand by us???

I doubt it.....

Religion.

We are the enemy of the Muslim, remember???

So....

I hope their revolution is successful....

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