The Way of Inequality
Posted 3/25/11
When you consider the sociological fact that bullying can be seen as a cultural practice of amassing a particular social capital called popularity in high schools, then you'll realize all those psychotic and materialistic games had nothing to do with mutual understanding. But rather it's a competition to establish social dominance through arbitrary dichotomy, symbolic hierarchy, and finally psychosocial inequality.

In other words, when universal inequality drives global consumption and dispersing poverty, bullying makes good business sense for the rich and affluent. Case to point, how our evolutionary bonobo cousins are more peaceful, playful, and talented. Yet they're being threaten by the violence and chaos of human overpopulation, inequality, and its undermining insecurity.
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Posted 3/27/11
Im not sure what the point you are trying to make is, i can see traces of many statements that are not really explained. Hierarchies will always arise in any large population, specially with a self contained population like a highschool. Also a discrepancy in wealth based on education and ability is what allows for capitalism to work, since it gives people a reason to study longer and more complex disciplines in hopes of one day making a considerable amount of money.

As for the bonobos having a more peaceful society looking at it from a behavioral point of view, fighting between individuals would not be worth the risk. It is theorized animals decide whether to fight or not after measuring the likelihood of being hurt with the value of the price to gain from fighting. For example, fighting between frogs is incredibly common regardless of perceivable size and strength . When frogs fight, they just jump on top of each other and lack the ability to really cause any real harm to each other, so the cost of fighting is insignificant, while the potential gain in territory would increase their breeding significantly. With these primates, fighting is rare, but aggression is rather high, and when fights do break out they are often lethal. Since they live in large groups, and they have been seen to engage in sexual activities for more than simple reproduction making females usually receptive, these chimps tend to substitute sex for aggression.

Also, as for being threatened by humans, humanity is an incredibly capable and selfish species and threatens the survival almost every organism on Earth, due to a lack of understanding of natural pathways, thats really nothing new.
Posted 3/27/11 , edited 3/28/11

quikbeam wrote:

Im not sure what the point you are trying to make is, i can see traces of many statements that are not really explained. Hierarchies will always arise in any large population, specially with a self contained population like a highschool. Also a discrepancy in wealth based on education and ability is what allows for capitalism to work, since it gives people a reason to study longer and more complex disciplines in hopes of one day making a considerable amount of money.

As for the bonobos having a more peaceful society looking at it from a behavioral point of view, fighting between individuals would not be worth the risk. It is theorized animals decide whether to fight or not after measuring the likelihood of being hurt with the value of the price to gain from fighting. For example, fighting between frogs is incredibly common regardless of perceivable size and strength . When frogs fight, they just jump on top of each other and lack the ability to really cause any real harm to each other, so the cost of fighting is insignificant, while the potential gain in territory would increase their breeding significantly. With these primates, fighting is rare, but aggression is rather high, and when fights do break out they are often lethal. Since they live in large groups, and they have been seen to engage in sexual activities for more than simple reproduction making females usually receptive, these chimps tend to substitute sex for aggression.

Also, as for being threatened by humans, humanity is an incredibly capable and selfish species and threatens the survival almost every organism on Earth, due to a lack of understanding of natural pathways, thats really nothing new.
This is why you don't just jump into conclusion based on behavioral analysis alone. Without yourself realizing that when currency lacks the collateral to prove its worth, due to a spending-borrowing ponzi scheme, capital becomes an arbitrary and symbolic concept with no real worth. While job specialization means nothing to social mobility, because consumerism and materialism only contribute to material mobility. This means that psychosocial inequality will still exist as a subjective reality, just as wealth in terms of money and material acquisition doesn't contribute humanitarianism one bit. But such is the ideology of our capitalist economy.

And unless you had done cross-cultural studies exclusively on aggression within bonobo society, you don't know that while chimpanzee society were known for their male aggressiveness, a change in the male-to-female demographic shows remarkable reduction in male aggressiveness. So don't compare the rationals of frogs' with that of humans', when there are closer animal relatives that are more relevant for us to draw comparative studies from.

Finally, I'm not so impressed by your ethnocentrism on human beings. Although you made humans sounding out much more interesting than sliced bread, I OTOH don't hold ourselves in high regards for obvious reasons:

Peter Donnelly shows how stats fool juries.
Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice.
Dan Dennett on dangerous memes.
Clay Shirky on institutions vs. collaboration.
Dan Gilbert on our mistaken expectations.
Dan Ariely on our buggy moral code.
Dan Ariely asks, Are we in control of our own decisions?
Michael Shermer: The pattern behind self-deception.
Laurie Santos: A monkey economy as irrational as ours.
Posted 3/28/11

DomFortress wrote:

When you consider the sociological fact that bullying can be seen as a cultural practice of amassing a particular social capital called popularity in high schools, then you'll realize all those psychotic and materialistic games had nothing to do with mutual understanding. But rather it's a competition to establish social dominance through arbitrary dichotomy, symbolic hierarchy, and finally psychosocial inequality.

In other words, when universal inequality drives global consumption and dispersing poverty, bullying makes good business sense for the rich and affluent. Case to point, how our evolutionary bonobo cousins are more peaceful, playful, and talented. Yet they're being threaten by the violence and chaos of human overpopulation, inequality, and its undermining insecurity.


I'm going to agree with Quikbeam:


Im not sure what the point you are trying to make is, i can see traces of many statements that are not really explained.


Exactly what is your point Dom? What's the question, where is the discussion? Which psychotic and materialistic games? What are you trying to express? That humans are capitalistic pigs? That the rich are feasting on the bullying that occurs in high schools? The "bullying" of other countries? What has this got to do with apes? It's really hard to make any sense of your post, or see what point it is you want to discuss.

Weren't you the one who pointed out to me how this forum probably wasn't very reprensentative for the young population of America in another discussion? That suggests you should have some understanding of the audience on this site, yet you choose to speak in a language you can be pretty certain 9/10 in the extended discussion section doesn't understand. How considerate is that? I think it shows a really poor judgement. At least if you are here since you wish to have a discussion and further understanding, rather than just lecturing people on whatever absolute conclusion you've reached.

Also it's funny how you choose to point to the Bonobo apes who stresses play and fun and versatile personalities, when all you seem to do on this forum is to tell others they are wrong and that you are right, that there's one absolute truth and you're the one holding it.
Posted 3/28/11

Okazu606 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

When you consider the sociological fact that bullying can be seen as a cultural practice of amassing a particular social capital called popularity in high schools, then you'll realize all those psychotic and materialistic games had nothing to do with mutual understanding. But rather it's a competition to establish social dominance through arbitrary dichotomy, symbolic hierarchy, and finally psychosocial inequality.

In other words, when universal inequality drives global consumption and dispersing poverty, bullying makes good business sense for the rich and affluent. Case to point, how our evolutionary bonobo cousins are more peaceful, playful, and talented. Yet they're being threaten by the violence and chaos of human overpopulation, inequality, and its undermining insecurity.


I'm going to agree with Quikbeam:


Im not sure what the point you are trying to make is, i can see traces of many statements that are not really explained.


Exactly what is your point Dom? What's the question, where is the discussion? Which psychotic and materialistic games? What are you trying to express? That humans are capitalistic pigs? That the rich are feasting on the bullying that occurs in high schools? The "bullying" of other countries? What has this got to do with apes? It's really hard to make any sense of your post, or see what point it is you want to discuss.

Weren't you the one who pointed out to me how this forum probably wasn't very reprensentative for the young population of America in another discussion? That suggests you should have some understanding of the audience on this site, yet you choose to speak in a language you can be pretty certain 9/10 in the extended discussion section doesn't understand. How considerate is that? I think it shows a really poor judgement. At least if you are here since you wish to have a discussion and further understanding, rather than just lecturing people on whatever absolute conclusion you've reached.

Also it's funny how you choose to point to the Bonobo apes who stresses play and fun and versatile personalities, when all you seem to do on this forum is to tell others they are wrong and that you are right, that there's one absolute truth and you're the one holding it.
The language barrier isn't set by me, but rather it's by your own self-fulfilling prophecy. The words are all originated from the English language system.

As in psychotic and materialistic games:And you're still thinking in absolute term of dichotomy, as in right versus wrong. Which is why you can't perceive in relative terms, as in diversity.
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Posted 3/28/11 , edited 3/28/11
'But is that not do to society in it self.. In today's society we do not create it, it creates us. In other words Society is not evolving in stead it is forcing people to evolve to it.. And in doing so it becomes more controlling and corrupted. (all in the name of keeping the states Quo.) Violence is a side affect of a irrational and non-evolving society,

Because of this factor one must take in the question one must ask is, bulling a natural reaction, or something created through programming from are illogical Society/system.



Posted 3/28/11 , edited 3/28/11

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'But is that not do to society in it self.. In today's society we do not create it, it creates us. In other words Society is not evolving in stead it is forcing people to evolve to it.. And in doing so it becomes more controlling and corrupted. (all in the name of keeping the states Quo.) Violence is a side affect of a irrational and non-evolving society,

Because of this factor one must take in the question one must ask is, bulling a natural reaction, or something created through programming from are illogical Society/system.



I think bullying as a form of violence is purposefully institutionalized as a cultural practice, by those who can have the most gain of social capital/dominance. Through the controlling and manipulating of such system of psychosocial inequality. Same thing with poverty, just question who stand to gain wealth from dispersing poverty as a psychosocial inequality. And sooner or later you can all trace the steps right back to the psychopaths in today's fast-pace business environment, complete with their own psychopathic culture of the double-talk, dishonesty, vanity, arrogance, and manipulation. In order for them to prey upon genuine human insecurity and loss aversion.
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Posted 3/28/11

DomFortress wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'But is that not do to society in it self.. In today's society we do not create it, it creates us. In other words Society is not evolving in stead it is forcing people to evolve to it.. And in doing so it becomes more controlling and corrupted. (all in the name of keeping the states Quo.) Violence is a side affect of a irrational and non-evolving society,

Because of this factor one must take in the question one must ask is, bulling a natural reaction, or something created through programming from are illogical Society/system.



I think bullying as a form of violence is purposefully institutionalized as a cultural practice, by those who can have the most gain of social capital/dominance. Through the controlling and manipulating of such system of psychosocial inequality. Same thing with poverty, just question who stand to gain from dispersing poverty as a psychosocial inequality.


"The question you ask is simple the failed system it self has the most to gain from it."

What needs to be done is the removal of the failed corrupt system, An the introduction of a new working system. (that is the easy part..)
The hard part is dealing with the programmed masses. Trying to reassert them into a new system..
hardest part of anything is reprogramming a human mind once it has already been programmed. ( I could list millions of examples.. but I know you already know of those examples as well..)
Posted 3/28/11

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I think bullying as a form of violence is purposefully institutionalized as a cultural practice, by those who can have the most gain of social capital/dominance. Through the controlling and manipulating of such system of psychosocial inequality. Same thing with poverty, just question who stand to gain from dispersing poverty as a psychosocial inequality. And sooner or later you can all trace the steps right back to the psychopaths in today's fast-pace business environment, complete with their own psychopathic culture of the double-talk, dishonesty, vanity, arrogance, and manipulation. In order for them to prey upon genuine human insecurity and loss aversion.


"The question you ask is simple the failed system it self has the most to gain from it."

What needs to be done is the removal of the failed corrupt system, An the introduction of a new working system. (that is the easy part..)
The hard part is dealing with the programmed masses. Trying to reassert them into a new system..
hardest part of anything is reprogramming a human mind once it has already been programmed.
( I could list millions of examples.. but I know you already know of those examples as well..)
This is how I think it breaks down to: the integral system approach.


Wilber’s integral map of human possibilities. A map of Wilber’s (2000) integral system is shown in the picture above. The map is broken into four quadrants relating to four levels of human possibility discovered by Wilber during his three year time of examination and contemplation. The integral map is divided between the individual and collective levels along the horizontal axis and the internal and external levels along the vertical axis so that (a) self and consciousness or the intentional (the individual - internal) is placed in the upper left hand quadrant; (b) brain and organism or the behavoial (individual – external) in the upper right hand quadrant; (c) social system and environment (collective – external) placed in the lower right hand quadrant; and (d) culture and worldview (collective – internal) in the lower left hand quadrant. Without going into all the further details of the Wilber’s integral vision, the map demonstrates that the integral system construct takes into account much of what constitutes life and existence and how each level of existence from simple to complex affects individuals and collective groups in profound ways. Furthermore, Wilber’s integral system construct shows that the behaviors of individuals and organizations can only be understood when all their constituting aspects are taken into account e.g. culture, education, religious beliefs, home environment, past victories and defeats, etc.(citation)
What you're referring to be the easiest change is in c). So that leaves the hardest task in d), And that's where the social process of acculturation comes in.

So the strategy here is to create a system that facilitates cultural integration to be the better culture change. In doing so the system should honor and value something different than whatever the existing psychopathic culture do.
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Posted 3/28/11 , edited 3/28/11

DomFortress wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I think bullying as a form of violence is purposefully institutionalized as a cultural practice, by those who can have the most gain of social capital/dominance. Through the controlling and manipulating of such system of psychosocial inequality. Same thing with poverty, just question who stand to gain from dispersing poverty as a psychosocial inequality. And sooner or later you can all trace the steps right back to the psychopaths in today's fast-pace business environment, complete with their own psychopathic culture of the double-talk, dishonesty, vanity, arrogance, and manipulation. In order for them to prey upon genuine human insecurity and loss aversion.


"The question you ask is simple the failed system it self has the most to gain from it."

What needs to be done is the removal of the failed corrupt system, An the introduction of a new working system. (that is the easy part..)
The hard part is dealing with the programmed masses. Trying to reassert them into a new system..
hardest part of anything is reprogramming a human mind once it has already been programmed.
( I could list millions of examples.. but I know you already know of those examples as well..)
This is how I think it breaks down to: the integral system approach.


Wilber’s integral map of human possibilities. A map of Wilber’s (2000) integral system is shown in the picture above. The map is broken into four quadrants relating to four levels of human possibility discovered by Wilber during his three year time of examination and contemplation. The integral map is divided between the individual and collective levels along the horizontal axis and the internal and external levels along the vertical axis so that (a) self and consciousness or the intentional (the individual - internal) is placed in the upper left hand quadrant; (b) brain and organism or the behavoial (individual – external) in the upper right hand quadrant; (c) social system and environment (collective – external) placed in the lower right hand quadrant; and (d) culture and worldview (collective – internal) in the lower left hand quadrant. Without going into all the further details of the Wilber’s integral vision, the map demonstrates that the integral system construct takes into account much of what constitutes life and existence and how each level of existence from simple to complex affects individuals and collective groups in profound ways. Furthermore, Wilber’s integral system construct shows that the behaviors of individuals and organizations can only be understood when all their constituting aspects are taken into account e.g. culture, education, religious beliefs, home environment, past victories and defeats, etc.(citation)
What you're referring to be the easiest change is in c). So that leaves the hardest task in d), And that's where the social process of acculturation comes in.

So the strategy here is to create a system that facilitates cultural integration to be the better culture change. In doing so the system should honor and value something different than whatever the existing psychopathic culture do.


Hence the pyramid structure of are system should go.. Remove the roles, for small group in control. Also removing the economic system we use for a more practical and logical system. currency is a illogical and unneeded device. Being its the age of the internet.. We are given far more opportunity to play a more active and greater role in are own governing system.. instead of it controlling are outcomes.

Posted 3/28/11 , edited 3/28/11

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:



Hence the pyramid structure of are system should go.. Remove the roles, for small group in control. Also removing the economic system we use for a more practical and logical system. currency is a illogical and unneeded device. Being its the age of the internet.. We are given far more opportunity to play a more active and greater role in are own governing system.. instead of it controlling are outcomes.
This is the most buzzard scene in human history insofar, and it's all due to deregulation and globalization of the financial sector. Which in terms made today's currency and the labor market worthless, when the banks are being subsidized by an arbitrary IOU to the taxpayers, in the form of nation states absorbing the financial collapse with bailouts.

Not only that, this whole trading scheme is based on negative reciprocity. Cases to point: 1)the free trade agreement regarding the American corns production that caused the mass migration of Mexican farmers. And 2)the risky subprime derivatives being insured by credit default swap(CDS). In truth, however, those are both very complex ponzi schemes kept behind the double-talk of national security.

Not only the currency is arbitrary worthless now, this money grows on money based on the believe of an infinite growth is in reality being powered by the Earth's finite resources. And while the rest of the world's developing nations are catching up fast as a global trend, we need to rethink about energy consumption before the Earth can no longer keep up. This is why what used to be the hallmarks of capitalism through materialistic consumption, needs to be transformed into a close system of resource conservation and restoration.

I mean look, this is our collective reality as how I see it; if we continue the current "business as usual" mentality, the future generations of humanity will become the creditors of our addiction to risk. Before they could even understand their first word, they're fated to belong in a world we failed to manage. So all things being equal, we're not as smart as we thought we were. And if we ever decided to dick 'round and do nothing to change the status quo, even though the solutions were already made painfully obvious. Then ourselves as a specie have no redeeming quality whatsoever, let along deserving the entitlement claim of "sentient" beings.
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