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Lucifer was framed
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Posted 5/17/11

xenoknight1 wrote:

Simple answer, God created Angels to serve him. That is their sole purpose, unlike mankind. God was king, Lucifer was a knight. The knight tried to over come the king in a coup d'état. So to the dungeon he goes. Is it really that complicated? lol


I have to disagree with this. Obviously God wanted them to do something. [other than serve him] otherwise he wouldn't have granted them freedom of choice. I mean come on, God couldn't have been that dumb. God's angels were his children, and there were much more emotional feelings attached to it then just knight and king on a chessboard or in a castle.
Posted 5/17/11

-yukin wrote:

It is kind of threatening..every time I see a Christian they're always talking about how all the nonbelievers will burn in Hell and if he wanted freedom of choice then there would be no punishment for not believing in him..


That's the problem. When they don't even have the right to judge.
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Posted 5/17/11
If there is a god, he's not omnipotent. Every classical story of the bible screams that god did not know the outcome to his own actions before he performed them, therefore he is not omnipotent. If anything, he would be a scientist of sorts, experimenting with his own powers to see to what extent he could take them.

He wiped away all the people of the world with rain in anger, when he found them to be too evil. If he were omnipotent, he would have known ahead of time this would happen and been able to fix the problem before its inception. "Anger" is a reaction, and a reaction implies lack of foresight. God expresses many reactionary emotions throughout the course of the bible.

I for one believe that if there is a god (and i don't believe, but this is the only plausible explanation to me), he's not all powerful and we were merely experiments. The first batch of people were failures and he wiped them away in anger. Many of the people who worked with him (angels, satan etc) didnt share his viewpoint on the expendability or worthlessness of humanity and thus rebelled against him, and thus he banished them. Why is it we never see god killing another "angel" or person of his own kind, but he's able to kill many humans (millions in fact)? It's because he's not able to because he probably didnt create them.

Throughout the course of the bible god kills over a million people, but satan kills less than 5.

What a champ.
Posted 5/17/11

-yukin wrote:


Lauriet wrote:

Lucifer, the protagonist? Sure. If the bible was about individuality and personal freedoms as well as knowledge. But it isn't, and it will never be about freedom.

Nice OP post, -Yukin. Though I doubt the religious would ever actually admit to this.


Oh, and I love the way you ended it with "God was an egotistical sadist". That was just <3


Thank you very much, kind sir. I wish the Bible was about individuality and personal freedoms. After all, God violated the most basic of Lucifer's civil rights, which we humans worked so hard to gain. [our own civil rights]


You can see up and through lines and deduce them effortlessly while stating the fundamental truths; you're a very smart child.
Posted 5/17/11 , edited 5/17/11

-yukin wrote:


Did he? The story of Adam and Eve was explained to me in the frame of "it was all their fault", and that Lucifer had nothing to do with it. and if he did have something to do with it, maybe he just wanted there to be more humans so he could try and convince them to join his rebellion? I know Lucifer wanted to take God's place, and maybe he thought it would work since he was his favorite, but God didn't even let him try, because he felt threatened.


I'm not going into the details of scripts but it doesn't make sense for an almighty and all knowing God who doesn't need anyone to feel threatened. Sure there are commandments and all but if he's so egotistical why not let power overrun him and make things his way instead of freewill; knowing what his subjects will do. I mean even grasping him the way we do is silly. I don't like what religion or rather people have done to the image of in my case the "the incomprehensible and don't bother trying to encompass because it's just to damn silly and just get on with your life" into such a stupid silly personification.


PsyonicB wrote:

Oh, that one's easy.

He's not being eternally punished either.
Here's a verse you may not have read
Revelation 20:10
It's kinda sad that people mistranslate the original latin version, it's not a contradiction, its merely a misinterpretation from people, and I think it's those hell fired up preachers fault.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There's where christians made a mistake
eis tous aeonas ton aionon, this translates to: until the ages of ages
what this verse really says is:
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were. And shall be tormented day and night until the age of ages."
This indicates that he will be put to death, and he will no longer exist.
This also indicates a new mysterious age.


It gnaws at me that you haven't considered the alternative; him being absolved according to that verse you've just given. It indicates neither conspicuously.



Gextiv 
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Posted 5/17/11
Your totally going to hell for siding with that Demon, sir.
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Posted 5/17/11

-yukin wrote:


xenoknight1 wrote:

Simple answer, God created Angels to serve him. That is their sole purpose, unlike mankind. God was king, Lucifer was a knight. The knight tried to over come the king in a coup d'état. So to the dungeon he goes. Is it really that complicated? lol


I have to disagree with this. Obviously God wanted them to do something. [other than serve him] otherwise he wouldn't have granted them freedom of choice. I mean come on, God couldn't have been that dumb. God's angels were his children, and there were much more emotional feelings attached to it then just knight and king on a chessboard or in a castle.


Angels were created to serve God, and to serve man. They were never given any kind of freedom, let alone the freedom to choose for themselves. You should look up what a slave is in the dictionary, the definition may surprise you.
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Posted 5/17/11

Gextiv wrote:

Your totally going to hell for siding with that Demon, sir.


Haha, well played. It is ma'am, and since I am an atheist I believe in no hell. I am mainly talking about what the Bible states in this thread. Implying that there is an afterlife, the one for the good, Heaven, and the one for the bad, Hell, why is it called the afterlife? If you are still conscious and breathing, wouldn't it simply be called life? You're still living. Just labeling it the 'afterlife' proves that there is none. It's not logical. We created the idea of an 'afterlife' because we fear death. Those who live must continue to live and those who are dead will only stay dead, decomposing in the cold, hard earth.
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Posted 5/17/11


Lucifer was an angel. He chose to rebel against God. God is the 'omnipotent' being in the Bible. He could have created them with no opinions, programmed to do only certain functions like robots. He could have, but he didn't. Because Lucifer rebelled. This isn't a human to human interaction, where you cannot control what your servants think/do behind your back, because it's God we're talking about. This is a higher power creating a lower power. He could have made it so the very thought of anything other than what they were assigned to do never crossed their mind. But he didn't.
Posted 5/17/11

-yukin wrote:


Sonovabitch wrote:


-yukin wrote:


Sonovabitch wrote:

Who the fuck said that the Bible is a novel with a protagonist and an antagonist? It's a religious doctrine.

If anything, God and Satan are just antagonists towards each other, and both are gods, since they are worshiped.

In accordance with what was said in The Holy Bible, God is omnipotent, and Satan is merely an angel. Satan also had Lucifer by his side. BTW the name Lucifer was taken from a Roman god, and the Roman gods were derived from Greek gods.

Lucifer wasn't framed, though his name has been synonymous with Satan's. Some believe that Satan and Lucifer combined, but really, they just joined forces to defy their divine master and take control for themselves. They ultimately lost to the forces of Heaven, and were banished to Hell where they could rule. However, it's not to say that they aren't there chiefly to punished unrepentant sinners. Satan was given the task of overseeing Hell rather than ruling it, yet the ugliness of dealing out torment to those who violated God's laws is enough to make one bitter. All Hell is supposed to be is a lake of fire or some realm of complete darkness. Some say it can kill you just by looking at it. Whatever Hell might be, there's pain to be sure telling from the descriptions.

In the end, The Holy Bible is an interesting story, but one that is getting unbearable old and irritating to hear about.


I regard the Bible as a book, in which usually contain protagonists and antagonists, which just so happens to correspond with religious beliefs. other people regard the Bible as a way of life, and that is alright with me. The popular belief is the one that the majority of society follows, and that belief is that Lucifer is synonymous with Satan and the Devil. All three names have the same bad connotations attached to them. I happen to use the name Lucifer to refer to him because I just like it that way, rather than calling him "Satan" or the "Devil". I think Lucifer was just an unfortunate guy.

I think the Bible would be better with Lucifer committing a more serious crime, like trying to kill God in order to overthrow him (though I don't know how that would work since he is immortal)


A book, yes. A novel, not quite. It doesn't flow like a novel, and technically, as I said, it is classified as religious doctrine whether or not it has the characteristics of a conventional story. The Bible is more like a long list of non-logical axioms constructing a story. Pretty words taken for truths when they really aren't truths become less true for being taken true because they are so "pretty".

And this battle between good end evil we hear about is eternal. God and Satan are both immortal. In fact, according to the Bible, all souls are immortal, and death really only occurs to flesh.


So that contradicts whoever said god doesn't punish people eternally, because he has punished Lucifer for forever, and he is immortal, so it is impossible for him to die.


Many speculate that damnation is escapable, all souls are a part of some infinite cycle, and Armageddon is the end of the cycle leading to a new Genesis.
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Posted 5/17/11

XBlackLilyX wrote:

Read, if you please, Paradise Lost by John Milton.


Great book! I second this.
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Posted 5/17/11
I personally like how MUNTO portrayed the battle of heaven vs hell, that was pretty fun.
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Posted 5/17/11 , edited 5/17/11

PsyonicB wrote:

Oh, that one's easy.

He's not being eternally punished either.
Here's a verse you may not have read
Revelation 20:10
It's kinda sad that people mistranslate the original latin version, it's not a contradiction, its merely a misinterpretation from people, and I think it's those hell fired up preachers fault.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There's where christians made a mistake
eis tous aeonas ton aionon, this translates to: until the ages of ages
what this verse really says is:
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were. And shall be tormented day and night until the age of ages."
This indicates that he will be put to death, and he will no longer exist.
This also indicates a new mysterious age.


I'm afraid you've made a misinterpretation. "The Devil that betrayed them" is not Lucifer. This devil he speaks of here is Nero Caeser. When Revelation was written, new Christians were experiencing unprecedented persecution at the hands of Nero Caeser. For speaking against him, the author of Revelation was banished to an island, where he wrote Revelation. Christians at the time believed the only way they would be saved from the persecution is if Jesus came back in their life time. The 'Beast' mentioned in Revelation is often thought to be Lucifer, and 666 thought to be the number of the devil. This however, is a common misconception.

At the time, every letter in the alphabet had a number tied to it, and if you took the letters that made Nero Caeser's name, you got the number 666. In fact, Lucifer isn't mentioned at all. All of the references that people THINK are Lucifer, are simply 'The Beast'. If we look through the Bible, we find that Lucifer is not evil at all, he was outspoken and unorthadox, but not evil.

Lucifer was an Angel in God's court who had the dirty job of testing people's faith according to God's will. When it came to Jesus to be tempted by Lucifer, we find that the Holy Spirt led him there specifically for this trial. This implies that it was all part of God's plan.

We also find that after these tests, there is no mention of Lucifer being 'defeated' or 'angry'. And why would he be? Lucifer's job is to test people on BEHALF of God.

I grew up in a Christian family and went to a Christian school, but I'm actually an Atheist. To me there's nothing funnier than seeing Christians go on and on about how we're doomed for Hell to be the bitch of Satan forever, when they don't even understand their own scripture.

The majority of Christian views concerning Satan come from the Catholic church during the early Dark Ages, when the extremely popular Pagan god of life and fertility (a half goat half man) was slandered by the church and made out to be Lucifer.

Christians only 'know' what they 'know' because they were told as much. The Bible is swung around and feel-good verses are quoted from it, but none of you actually follow its laws. If you did you would murder everyone you see working on a Sunday. If you did you would bash the babies of your enemies on rocks. If you did you would kill more than half the population of Earth on site. If you did you would still have slaves. If you did you would bash those slaves.

In short, the Bible is a Hate Codex that has no place in modern society. What's funnier is that 2 billion people on Earth consider it to be the very word of God, yet have no idea what's actually inside. What Christians actually believe in isn't the Jesus of the Bible, but it's a fabricated misconception of what they want that Jesus to be like. Most of their 'knowledge' of spiritual matters comes not from the Bible, but from what people tell them about the Bible.

Edit: deleted a Bible misquote
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Posted 5/18/11
just thought i would add my two cents but i am hearing a lot of different myths and traditions derived out of context i know that not everyone here believes that the bible is a credible source but i would like to see where the stories (verses in particular) of Satan's democracy, the duty of the angles and God's injustice. i can name a few but i guess its my challenge to you to come up with them if you would like to try.
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Posted 5/18/11 , edited 5/18/11
ill say it since no one has


obvious troll is obvious


i like how alot of people that say stuff about the bible havent read it <.<


they go by what they are told >.>

I think thats where the cult thing starts


i feel like theres at least a few versions of the bible that some jack off fucked with and changed stuff.
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