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Lucifer was framed
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Posted 5/18/11

Sekiryo wrote:

I personally like how MUNTO portrayed the battle of heaven vs hell, that was pretty fun.


hey now....i forgot about munto thanks for that
Posted 5/18/11
Nice post OP. Quite interesting. I've gone through the forum and I'm going to the bookstore right now to look for "Paradise Lost".
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Posted 5/18/11

-yukin wrote:

I have been studying the Bible for the past few days and I noticed something.

The real protagonist of the story is Lucifer (satan), and the antagonist is God.

When God created his creatures, he gave them the freedom of choice, because he didn't want them to be like robots. But Lucifer was tossed into Hell because he fought for a democracy in Heaven. He was punished for doing what he thought was right. This is clearly a violation to God's freedom of choice that he wanted all creatures to have. If it really was a free choice, there wouldn't have been a punishment. A modern day comparison of this would be a father asking his son if he loved him, and if the son said no the father would throw his son into an oven and cook him. Clearly this is wrong.

Lucifer (in the Bible) is the protagonist because he was standing up for what he thought was right, exercising his freedoms, trying to make the ignorant realize that the seven deadly sins (lust, wrath, greed, sloth, pride, envy, and gluttony) are all normal emotions that all humans are bound to feel in some point of their life. So if we follow according to those rules, we all have committed sins which means we're all going to Hell.

God (in the Bible) is the antagonist because he doesn't want to lose his followers. He continues to be hypocritical, brainwashing everyone to believe and love him, threatening them with being sent to Hell if they don't. He's also restricting humans to live as they wish, making them bottle up their emotions within themselves (which isn't very healthy). In the end, he was just an egotistical sadist.

opinions on this? agree/disagree and why?

an apology in advance if I offend any religious people, that was not my intention at all.





-yukin wrote:

It is kind of threatening..every time I see a Christian they're always talking about how all the nonbelievers will burn in Hell and if he wanted freedom of choice then there would be no punishment for not believing in him..


And that is why the concept of God/religion is joke. The bible that everyone screams and shouts about is nothing but a book of hypocracy and untruths.

Posted 5/18/11
OMG!!!!!
I AGREEEE
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Posted 5/18/11
Ever read "To Reign in Hell" by Steven Brust? A very good read that deals with a version of this very subject. It's the victors who write the histories...

One of those moments for me was when I was reading the Book of Job for the umpteenth time back in Elementary and finally comprehended what was actually going on story-wise and realized what "The Lord" was doing to his most faithful servant on a whim. I just couldn't comprehend how this was supposed to be an inspirational story or see it's actions as anything but amoral and frankly evil.
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Posted 5/18/11

XBlackLilyX wrote:

BTW. Satan and Lucifer are not the same entity. They are quite different personalities, I leave it to you to do your own research....

find out for yourself who rules Hades...



devil: In some religions, the major spirit of evil and foe of God

lucifer: in christian tradition, the archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt if the angels; Satan

satan: The Devil

god: a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions

direct definitions taken from the american heritage dictionary, fourth edition

it clearly states in a written text that lucifer, the devil, and satan are indeed the same person. maybe this is a misconception, but I am only following the popular belief because that is what is understood [by most people]

as for the person that said i was an obvious troll, I am not in any way trying to troll and it is unfortunate that you think I am. I am simply stating my beliefs and trying to confirm or correct them.
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Posted 5/18/11
As for the God creating the angels to serve him as slaves, then Lucifer was right. He fought for freedom. And he was condemned for it. Is that why everyone hates Lucifer? Because he fought for freedom? I don't see anyone hating on the blacks for fighting for their freedom when they were enslaved, so God is basically a slavemaster, claiming to be the savior.
Posted 5/18/11

AdamIdris101 wrote:


-yukin wrote:


Did he? The story of Adam and Eve was explained to me in the frame of "it was all their fault", and that Lucifer had nothing to do with it. and if he did have something to do with it, maybe he just wanted there to be more humans so he could try and convince them to join his rebellion? I know Lucifer wanted to take God's place, and maybe he thought it would work since he was his favorite, but God didn't even let him try, because he felt threatened.


I'm not going into the details of scripts but it doesn't make sense for an almighty and all knowing God who doesn't need anyone to feel threatened. Sure there are commandments and all but if he's so egotistical why not let power overrun him and make things his way instead of freewill; knowing what his subjects will do. I mean even grasping him the way we do is silly. I don't like what religion or rather people have done to the image of in my case the "the incomprehensible and don't bother trying to encompass because it's just to damn silly and just get on with your life" into such a stupid silly personification.


PsyonicB wrote:

Oh, that one's easy.

He's not being eternally punished either.
Here's a verse you may not have read
Revelation 20:10
It's kinda sad that people mistranslate the original latin version, it's not a contradiction, its merely a misinterpretation from people, and I think it's those hell fired up preachers fault.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. There's where christians made a mistake
eis tous aeonas ton aionon, this translates to: until the ages of ages
what this verse really says is:
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were. And shall be tormented day and night until the age of ages."
This indicates that he will be put to death, and he will no longer exist.
This also indicates a new mysterious age.


It gnaws at me that you haven't considered the alternative; him being absolved according to that verse you've just given. It indicates neither conspicuously.





I've concluded the truth of the meaning eis tous aeonas ton aionon, it's quite simple, it doesnt mean forever and ever, but even if it did, I dont see how eternal punishment would be a bad thing for Lucifer. I think it's good of God to end him.


Posted 5/18/11

PsyonicB wrote:

I've concluded the truth of the meaning eis tous aeonas ton aionon, it's quite simple, it doesnt mean forever and ever, but even if it did, I dont see how eternal punishment would be a bad thing for Lucifer. I think it's good of God to end him.




People can get insanely messed up dude. I believe in infinite amounts of chances for a anyone to redeem themselves especially from that type of bleak existence. It's just too much.

Posted 5/18/11
I agree with the OP.
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Posted 5/18/11 , edited 5/18/11
This is actually rather interesting. It's sort of like I'm seeing the story from another perspective
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Posted 5/18/11

-yukin wrote:

It is kind of threatening..every time I see a Christian they're always talking about how all the nonbelievers will burn in Hell and if he wanted freedom of choice then there would be no punishment for not believing in him..


Ha, yeah, the hellfire Christians can be pretty scary. Give the rest of us actual normal Christians a bad name. Tried informing my aunt she has no right to condemn souls, just because she goes to church every Sunday, and she fought it tooth and nail. So much fun they are.

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Posted 5/18/11

-yukin wrote:

I have been studying the Bible for the past few days and I noticed something.

The real protagonist of the story is Lucifer (satan), and the antagonist is God.

When God created his creatures, he gave them the freedom of choice, because he didn't want them to be like robots. But Lucifer was tossed into Hell because he fought for a democracy in Heaven. He was punished for doing what he thought was right. This is clearly a violation to God's freedom of choice that he wanted all creatures to have. If it really was a free choice, there wouldn't have been a punishment. A modern day comparison of this would be a father asking his son if he loved him, and if the son said no the father would throw his son into an oven and cook him. Clearly this is wrong.

Lucifer (in the Bible) is the protagonist because he was standing up for what he thought was right, exercising his freedoms, trying to make the ignorant realize that the seven deadly sins (lust, wrath, greed, sloth, pride, envy, and gluttony) are all normal emotions that all humans are bound to feel in some point of their life. So if we follow according to those rules, we all have committed sins which means we're all going to Hell.

God (in the Bible) is the antagonist because he doesn't want to lose his followers. He continues to be hypocritical, brainwashing everyone to believe and love him, threatening them with being sent to Hell if they don't. He's also restricting humans to live as they wish, making them bottle up their emotions within themselves (which isn't very healthy). In the end, he was just an egotistical sadist.

opinions on this? agree/disagree and why?

an apology in advance if I offend any religious people, that was not my intention at all.


I found several problems with this reasoning. This might be a long reply so I'll try to organize it.

Problem 1: Lucifer was tossed into Hell because he fought for a democracy in Heaven.
If you read the Bible, then you should know that Lucifer thought that he was as great as God, and tried to overthrow him. This can be taken in many different ways (maybe God just didn't like him, or framed like you said) but since the rest of the Bible teaches about peace, and not to let anger or jealousy control you, etc etc, I and a number of Christians like to agree that Lucifer was in the wrong.

Problem 2: If it really was a free choice, there wouldn't have been a punishment.
Your basically implying that freedom means you can do whatever you want. If I went out and killed somebody, I cannot use freedom as an excuse for it. Freedom in my opinion, means that You can do whatever you want, be prepared to face the consequences. Lucifer tried to overthrow God and Heaven, therefore he must be punished.

Problem 3: A modern day comparison of this would be a father asking his son if he loved him, and if the son said no the father would throw his son into an oven and cook him. Clearly this is wrong.
This is a big exaggeration, it's more like a father giving his son $50 to do anything with, but when his son hires a prostitute he sends him to boarding school. There are implied boundaries to all given freedom.

Problem 4: The seven deadly sins (lust, wrath, greed, sloth, pride, envy, and gluttony) are all normal emotions that all humans are bound to feel in some point of their life.
If you see a girl that you like, is it okay to rape her? If you hate someone with a passion, is it okay to kill them? If you train to be the best at something, is it okay to be all high and mighty? As you say all humans will run into these emotions sooner or later in their life, but God teaches that it's wrong to allow these emotions to CONTROL us.

Problem 5: He continues to be hypocritical, brainwashing everyone to believe and love him, threatening them with being sent to Hell if they don't.
God never threatened us, He informed us of what would happen. If your teacher tells you that you have to study or you fail the test, are they threatening you? No they are telling you what will happen. Also, all those hate-mongering "Christians" you see, are just overzealous, and you shouldn't think of all us Christians like that. I've seen very outspoken and rude atheists, does that mean all atheists are like that? I've seen a lot of racist white people, does that mean they're all racist? NO, so why should you think the same of all Christians.

Last Problem: He's also restricting humans to live as they wish, making them bottle up their emotions within themselves.
Did He say people can't go to therapy? Does He people cannot go to others for help? Are you implying that the only way to get rid of feelings like wrath, lust, greed, pride, gluttony, sloth, and envy, is to act on them? God says we cannot commit sins OF THAT NATURE. You're angry you don't solve it by killing people, your jealous of your friend's T.V you don't steal it.

I find it very hard to believe you actually read the Bible if these are the things you take away from it.
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Posted 5/18/11
Religious leaders----->this is what happens when people start thinking for themselves
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Posted 5/18/11


1) Lucifer was a creation of God. He was God's son. All the angels were. And they were made to serve God, like slaves. Lucifer thought this was wrong and he led the revolt. God could have made it so this never happened, but he didn't. Since he claims to be the all-powerful and all-knowing being, he must have known that this was coming. So that implies he meant for Lucifer to do that and he had already planned to cast him into Hell, putting him in the position as the bad guy.

2) Freedom does mean doing whatever you want. However, it is impossible to achieve full freedom because there will always be restrictions and boundaries and consequences as a result of your actions.

3) The father is God. The son is Lucifer. The throwing him into the oven and cooking him is Lucifer being thrown into Hell by God. If Lucifer chose to fully love God, he wouldn't have wanted to take his place. He'd have been content just being able to serve him. So Lucifer defied him. This is no exaggeration.

4) No it is not okay to rape a girl because of lust, and it is not okay to kill because of envy or greed [or perhaps even gluttony, if you like cannibalism]. These actions as a result of these sins do not justify them. The appropriate action would be to handle them in a way that expresses your emotions but does little harm. If I were envious of someone, instead of killing or stealing from them, I could say "I envy you" and play it off as a joke. There, I have made my point clear and gotten it off my chest so I don't have to keep it inside. Also, your pre-installed moral compass that comes with your birth should help a person to decipher what is wrong and what is right, and go from there. I don't need God's word to tell me that because it's something I already know.

5) In a way I see it as threatening. If you choose to believe, you'll be lead to Heaven. However, if you choose not to believe, you will be sentenced to burn in Hell. Yes, this information is informative, but it is also threatening. If I did chose not to believe and I had not known this before, and God told me this, I would feel threatened.

6) Well, this is a restriction on humans to live as they wish. I already stated in #2 that full freedom can never be granted or achieved. I am implying that the only way to get rid of those negative emotions is to act upon them because you are in some kind of form or sense. If I am angry, I can go to my friend to help me resolve my anger. The influence is anger, and the action taken is going to the friend for help. So this is still acting upon them, but not in such a direct way [I'm mad at you, so I'll kill you]. Also when I talk to the friend I may pound my fist on a table or yell in a frustrated voice, and this is acting upon anger. All of which can help rid a person of anger.

I do not come from a religious family. I have never been inside a church or chapel or cathedral in my life. I was not preached the Bible. I was not taught that the God is almighty and to believe and trust in him, and turn away from the Devil. No, none of that happened. I simply found an interest in the Bible myself, therefore I did not have a biased way of thinking before I even read a word of it. I'm taking everything in the way of reading an ordinary book which has no connections to anything but the book itself. My pity has gone to Lucifer because I found him the most relatable character. I think he has been wronged, and has been spared no justice or mercy. How many times have you gotten in trouble for something you didn't do? But no matter how you argued, they always pronounced you guilty. It's like being captured and then being tortured for information, but you don't even have an idea what they want to know. But no matter how many times you say you don't know anything, they think you are lying and continue to torture you. This, in my opinion, is Lucifer's pain and suffering and what he has to endure. Eventually, he becomes guilty, because he is angry and wants revenge. I would be too. If someone falsely accused me of something, at first I would be calm about it and ask whatever they could be talking about. But after a few minutes of constant accusation and the ignored words I say to defend myself, I would be enraged because I have been wronged. This is the pain of being ignored.
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