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Muslims
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
personally i think orthodox muslims are a bit over the top...even though i am a muslim...by birth at least...
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

jasamaja wrote:


aminasahra wrote:

jasamaja, muslim women are not treated bad in islam. in fact, they have many benefits when it comes to marriage. like the fact that they can take how ever much money they want from their husbands, and he can't reject. i'm a muslim, but not an arab, and women are not treated bad at all.


Well, it is true that Islam is giving them certain rights, but still, there are this Arabian traditions that impregnated into the Islam...I know Muslims that are not arabic, but I wasn't referring to them....I thought that this wasn't necessary to point out..
And you can't deny the fact that there are doubtful verses to be found in the Quran, about beating women if they don't follow the right path or de facto are not doing what the husband or man wants from them. And those verses can be interpreted the way they want, since they are written in such an unclear way...
And also you know that women need to cover their bodies and hair, which also means that in certain Arabian countries it is not allowed for women to go to a male doctor without their husband, and even if the husband is with them, they don't have the right to talk to the doctor and explain where it hurts, it is their husband who has to do that, and they also can't take off the clothes, and since the women in those countries aren't that privileged as men, not many of them can go study and become a doctor...I find it stupid to put religion and tradition over somebody's health...and the irony is that there are therefor more male doctors than female one's...for the reasons I explained...And believe me, because of this there were many women that had to suffer and die unnecessarily ....

Flo~


Well, ur right on one thing i just read so lemme say that ur right. Men can beat there wives if they desrve it but they can't leave a mark or bruise or anything but I still find it kinda cruel. And yup it's true that in some places u can't leave ur house with out a man!!! or drive!!! that must suck!!! I live in the US and I don't wair those huge black things ide probably die if I did. But dont get me wrong I still do cover just not like that!
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

metalduck wrote:


jasamaja wrote:

Zer0 wrote:


1) Trying constantly to convert (or 'save') other people by constantly harrasing/bugging them about it (one girl spent 3 hours trying to make me a Christian over MSN once...) or, worse, preeching/resorting to violence.


LOL...you're not the only one, there were so many people trying to convert me, and they always came with the banal argument that I will end up in Hell, or something like that...may god save me(sarcasm)

Flo~



I guess I just feel the need to defend my religion here. You know, the reason that we try to convert people isn't so that we can put a mark on a tally sheet to show that we're "winning" against other religions, or to prove we're better, or anything like that. The reason people try to convert you is because they're trying to save you. Whether or not you believe them doesn't matter to me, but please, at least appreciate that they care enough to try and save you from what they perceive to be eternal damnation.


good points. ^_^
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

jasamaja wrote:

mmh...I see, so far it looks okay I was already scared as I left the site for the day, that there were already some fights going up.. in my absence, but it looks like it still is civilised

to nashx02: well it is hard to stay always correct and use the correct formulation, and since my english has it's limits it is hard for me to overwrite it, or something like that...
and well, maybe I shouldn't use evil...but something like dangerous...or easily misunderstood..no idea...=O


Flo~


Don't worry it is kinda hard to understand the Quran;) I can't even understand it sometimes because of the way they riht it so I cant blame u for misunderstanding it.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
OK EVERYONE ME AND MY FRIEND, "T-RISH" HAVE A GROUP CALLED, "MUSLIMS_AND_ISLAM" IN THAT GROUP WE TRY TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE JOIN IT!!!!! WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT GROW SO WE CAN HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND US;) OH AND MUSLIMS WE COULD USE QUESTION ANSWERERS SO PLEASE JOIN US AND HELP;) Thanx^^
~dreamer
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

dreamer580 wrote:

OK EVERYONE ME AND MY FRIEND, "T-RISH" HAVE A GROUP CALLED, "MUSLIMS_AND_ISLAM" IN THAT GROUP WE TRY TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE JOIN IT!!!!! WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT GROW SO WE CAN HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND US;) OH AND MUSLIMS WE COULD USE QUESTION ANSWERERS SO PLEASE JOIN US AND HELP;) Thanx^^
~dreamer


how do i join in?

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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

aminasahra wrote:


dreamer580 wrote:

OK EVERYONE ME AND MY FRIEND, "T-RISH" HAVE A GROUP CALLED, "MUSLIMS_AND_ISLAM" IN THAT GROUP WE TRY TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE JOIN IT!!!!! WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT GROW SO WE CAN HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND US;) OH AND MUSLIMS WE COULD USE QUESTION ANSWERERS SO PLEASE JOIN US AND HELP;) Thanx^^
~dreamer


how do i join in?



Just go to the group and under the avatar it has a list and it says, "join this group" then click that and ur in!!!! ^^ thanks btw:)
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

dreamer580 wrote:


aminasahra wrote:


dreamer580 wrote:

OK EVERYONE ME AND MY FRIEND, "T-RISH" HAVE A GROUP CALLED, "MUSLIMS_AND_ISLAM" IN THAT GROUP WE TRY TO ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT ISLAM SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE JOIN IT!!!!! WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT GROW SO WE CAN HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND US;) OH AND MUSLIMS WE COULD USE QUESTION ANSWERERS SO PLEASE JOIN US AND HELP;) Thanx^^
~dreamer


how do i join in?



Just go to the group and under the avatar it has a list and it says, "join this group" then click that and ur in!!!! ^^ thanks btw:)


sorry to bother, i'm new to cr. i don't know were to go to groups. please explain in details. thank you.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
im very sad that many view muslim as a bad religion. like other religion they love their god as much as we love ours. we cant prove that all the bad doings are done by muslim. for me, see-ing is believing. if i dun see it with my own eyes i wun be as SHALLOW AS to insult or criticize them.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08


Well I answered this question to before to another and this is what I mean man people are not reading the correct context but this is what I got out of that meaning because I dont believe you are suppose to hit them in anyway. I saved this because I knew 4:34 would be bought up again and I dont want to keep explaining the same thing over


Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all). 4:34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don’t know if the Quranic translation you used had commentary for the word the Quran used for beat in Arabic. But let’s look at a little Arabic to understand what the Quran is really saying. The word translated to mean beat is the Arabic word edrobhohunna. That word does not mean beat in a violent way to incur physical damage. The Arabic word that means beat to incur physical damage is hatumhoo. Go get a good Arabic dictionary or consult any Arabic speaking person and they will tell you the difference. The Quran did not use the word hatumhoo it used edrobhohunna, which is a word meaning more an action to show displeasure without causing physical harm. It is striking such that even a baby won’t be harmed. It is hard to translate because in English when we use the word strike it implies harm but in Arabic this word does not imply physical damage or harm. Most translators in an attempt to get close to the meaning in Arabic translate edrobhohunna as strike lightly.

Some translators have even translated this word as a tongue lashing. But it does not mean the physical brutalization and beat down of women which does not agree with the spirit of the Quran.

The Prophet (saaw) also said the following:

"O People! It is true that you have certain rights with regards to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

The Prophet (saaw) never beat any of his wives and he condemned any Muslim who beat their wives as in the following Hadiths:

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Messenger of Allah (saws) and asked him: What do you say about our wives? He replied: Give them food that you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.

"It was reported to the Prophet (saws) that some of his Companions beat their wives, whereupon he said, 'Certainly those are not the best among you’.” (as reported by Ahmad, Abu Daoud, and al-Nisai. Ibn Hibban and Al-Hakim classify it as sound, as narrated by Iyas ibn 'Abdullah ibn Abu Dhiab).

Like I said we can continue putting things into context but people will ignore and they continue to believe the media's or other people misquoting without even directly asking a muslim who knows arabic themselves and stay ignorant. It is not worth it bro.

i like the fact that you always come up with good points.

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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

dreamer580 wrote:


jasamaja wrote:


aminasahra wrote:

jasamaja, muslim women are not treated bad in islam. in fact, they have many benefits when it comes to marriage. like the fact that they can take how ever much money they want from their husbands, and he can't reject. i'm a muslim, but not an arab, and women are not treated bad at all.


Well, it is true that Islam is giving them certain rights, but still, there are this Arabian traditions that impregnated into the Islam...I know Muslims that are not arabic, but I wasn't referring to them....I thought that this wasn't necessary to point out..
And you can't deny the fact that there are doubtful verses to be found in the Quran, about beating women if they don't follow the right path or de facto are not doing what the husband or man wants from them. And those verses can be interpreted the way they want, since they are written in such an unclear way...
And also you know that women need to cover their bodies and hair, which also means that in certain Arabian countries it is not allowed for women to go to a male doctor without their husband, and even if the husband is with them, they don't have the right to talk to the doctor and explain where it hurts, it is their husband who has to do that, and they also can't take off the clothes, and since the women in those countries aren't that privileged as men, not many of them can go study and become a doctor...I find it stupid to put religion and tradition over somebody's health...and the irony is that there are therefor more male doctors than female one's...for the reasons I explained...And believe me, because of this there were many women that had to suffer and die unnecessarily ....

Flo~


Well, ur right on one thing i just read so lemme say that ur right. Men can beat there wives if they desrve it but they can't leave a mark or bruise or anything but I still find it kinda cruel. And yup it's true that in some places u can't leave ur house with out a man!!! or drive!!! that must suck!!! I live in the US and I don't wair those huge black things ide probably die if I did. But dont get me wrong I still do cover just not like that!


No they cannot where are you getting this from? In those countries where men beat their women it is the culture not religion that allows that. You should know this by reading the Quran remember how the prophet pbuh said you love your mother 3 times first then your father. Did you even read my post the prophet never beaten any of his women and as muslim we try to follow the life of the prophet so plz dont say stuff like this.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

drizza wrote:


dreamer580 wrote:


jasamaja wrote:


aminasahra wrote:

jasamaja, muslim women are not treated bad in islam. in fact, they have many benefits when it comes to marriage. like the fact that they can take how ever much money they want from their husbands, and he can't reject. i'm a muslim, but not an arab, and women are not treated bad at all.


Well, it is true that Islam is giving them certain rights, but still, there are this Arabian traditions that impregnated into the Islam...I know Muslims that are not arabic, but I wasn't referring to them....I thought that this wasn't necessary to point out..
And you can't deny the fact that there are doubtful verses to be found in the Quran, about beating women if they don't follow the right path or de facto are not doing what the husband or man wants from them. And those verses can be interpreted the way they want, since they are written in such an unclear way...
And also you know that women need to cover their bodies and hair, which also means that in certain Arabian countries it is not allowed for women to go to a male doctor without their husband, and even if the husband is with them, they don't have the right to talk to the doctor and explain where it hurts, it is their husband who has to do that, and they also can't take off the clothes, and since the women in those countries aren't that privileged as men, not many of them can go study and become a doctor...I find it stupid to put religion and tradition over somebody's health...and the irony is that there are therefor more male doctors than female one's...for the reasons I explained...And believe me, because of this there were many women that had to suffer and die unnecessarily ....

Flo~


Well, ur right on one thing i just read so lemme say that ur right. Men can beat there wives if they desrve it but they can't leave a mark or bruise or anything but I still find it kinda cruel. And yup it's true that in some places u can't leave ur house with out a man!!! or drive!!! that must suck!!! I live in the US and I don't wair those huge black things ide probably die if I did. But dont get me wrong I still do cover just not like that!


No they cannot where are you getting this from? In those countries where men beat their women it is the culture not religion that allows that. You should know this by reading the Quran remember how the prophet pbuh said you love your mother 3 times first then your father. Did you even read my post the prophet never beaten any of his women and as muslim we try to follow the life of the prophet so plz dont say stuff like this.

A shek told me that. We were in a class and he was talking about a guy who wanted to beat his wife because of how rude and disrespectful she was, then he told us that you can beat ur wife if u have a good reason and it doesn't leave a mark. I know of course the prophet didn't beat his wives! I don't think that shek was right now????? he is shia though which is wierd but anyways I'm sorry if I said anything that upset you:(

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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08
^

Man this is why we get stereotyped now because this is being taught from Sheks. I do not agree with this shek and where in the Quran does he find the need to condone this behavior when the Prophet condems it. And you a muslim female are you ok with your husband hitting you? Because you said that the shek told you? As high as women are regarded in the Quran you are fine with it? And dont worry I am not mad at you at all.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

drizza wrote:


Ms_Maryam wrote:


magnus102 wrote:
4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.-Allah made men better then women.


4:34

"Husbands are the protectors and maintainers of their wives because God has give the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Theirfore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, next refuse to share their beds, and last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means of annoyance for God is Most High Great ( above you all)."


The part about lightly beating them is highly debated and misconceived by many. Many Muslim scholars advise against this only if the situation is extreme. A lot of people take bits of the Quran to justify them beating their wifes. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said only a light tap, avoiding her face, with a toothbrush, for example. The last part says that if talking to her and all that stuff fails, then leave the rest up to God. He is most high and all knowing.

Now some people see "light tap" and go off. Saying the Quran says the husband can beat the wife if he wants to. This isn't true at all.

Ok, Im done for tonight. Sorry for "preaching" as some of you like to call it.


Well I answered this question to before to another and this is what I mean man people are not reading the correct context but this is what I got out of that meaning because I dont believe you are suppose to hit them in anyway. I saved this because I knew 4:34 would be bought up again and I dont want to keep explaining the same thing over


Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all). 4:34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don’t know if the Quranic translation you used had commentary for the word the Quran used for beat in Arabic. But let’s look at a little Arabic to understand what the Quran is really saying. The word translated to mean beat is the Arabic word edrobhohunna. That word does not mean beat in a violent way to incur physical damage. The Arabic word that means beat to incur physical damage is hatumhoo. Go get a good Arabic dictionary or consult any Arabic speaking person and they will tell you the difference. The Quran did not use the word hatumhoo it used edrobhohunna, which is a word meaning more an action to show displeasure without causing physical harm. It is striking such that even a baby won’t be harmed. It is hard to translate because in English when we use the word strike it implies harm but in Arabic this word does not imply physical damage or harm. Most translators in an attempt to get close to the meaning in Arabic translate edrobhohunna as strike lightly.

Some translators have even translated this word as a tongue lashing. But it does not mean the physical brutalization and beat down of women which does not agree with the spirit of the Quran.

The Prophet (saaw) also said the following:

"O People! It is true that you have certain rights with regards to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

The Prophet (saaw) never beat any of his wives and he condemned any Muslim who beat their wives as in the following Hadiths:

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Messenger of Allah (saws) and asked him: What do you say about our wives? He replied: Give them food that you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.

"It was reported to the Prophet (saws) that some of his Companions beat their wives, whereupon he said, 'Certainly those are not the best among you’.” (as reported by Ahmad, Abu Daoud, and al-Nisai. Ibn Hibban and Al-Hakim classify it as sound, as narrated by Iyas ibn 'Abdullah ibn Abu Dhiab).

Like I said we can continue putting things into context but people will ignore and they continue to believe the media's or other people misquoting without even directly asking a muslim who knows arabic themselves and stay ignorant. It is not worth it bro.


Drizza did a much better job at explaining this topic.
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

drizza wrote:

^

Man this is why we get stereotyped now because this is being taught from Sheks. I do not agree with this shek and where in the Quran does he find the need to condone this behavior when the Prophet condems it. And you a muslim female are you ok with your husband hitting you? Because you said that the shek told you? As high as women are regarded in the Quran you are fine with it? And dont worry I am not mad at you at all.


NO! Of course I'm not ok with it! I said that already that I find it cruel but forgive me Im sorry Im only 13:( I don't even know much about islam yet so thats why I take classes. I said I'm sorry and I know it's wrong so please I don't want to argue lets just drop it now. please and thankyou^^
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Posted 1/17/08 , edited 4/18/08

dreamer580 wrote:


drizza wrote:

^

Man this is why we get stereotyped now because this is being taught from Sheks. I do not agree with this shek and where in the Quran does he find the need to condone this behavior when the Prophet condems it. And you a muslim female are you ok with your husband hitting you? Because you said that the shek told you? As high as women are regarded in the Quran you are fine with it? And dont worry I am not mad at you at all.


NO! Of course I'm not ok with it! I said that already that I find it cruel but forgive me Im sorry Im only 13:( I don't even know much about islam yet so thats why I take classes. I said I'm sorry and I know it's wrong so please I don't want to argue lets just drop it now. please and thankyou^^


Yeah I am the same as you I am not perfect as well I got a lot to learn also myself. Lol we wont argue about this trust me your not lost your very smart. Good luck with your classes
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