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Nature of Existence
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08
its hard to tell, its been the biggest mystery in my life. if god do really exist or not! a piece of paper or a word from someone that god does really exist is not enough to prove anything, we can't even find a fact that god really do exist. oh but there's this christian who told me to read the bible couple of times and a sign will appear... i haven't tried it yet...
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:

You asked how you could be an atheist but believe.. its called agnaustic basically fence sitters in this argument, and your explanation of god is slightly contradicting. You seem to be indecisive. God being in the imagination, hmm basically a god is something that seems to have a superior understanding then everyone, is basically what people believe. So what occurs is the ass kissing of something bigger then you (metaphorically).

1. Existence is something that is 'there'? No in my point of view, because we are beings who have constant thought no matter what. Even when you think your not thinking your still thinking. So its a hallucination of thoughts that are jumbled up.
2. Ethereal existence is a higher form than physical existence? No because as an atheist i believe in physically existence. Ethereal existence is usually mistaken for thoughts and insight into things.
3. Everyone in the world, believers and nonbelievers alike, are able to comprehend 'God'? People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized"


Quote me on it if you wanna go further into it!!!



ok..so

Other than what regulus already pointed out.

1. What exactly are you implying here? How does our thoughts being a hallucination have anything to do with existence being something that is 'there'?
2. I'm changing the word ethereal here as it has way too many definitions and a lot of them has nothing to do with what I'm actually trying to say.
3. I quote "People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized""
^^^^^ That's almost what I'm trying to say, unless you mean something completely different from what you actually said.



1. I was saying that the feeling that there is somethign there is actually intuition, and thoughts mixed.
2. basically i answered the question in the context it was written.
3. No i meant what i said but i don't see where you said that... although i didn't read other pages and posts
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:
The internet has been shown to us by its creator. Stating that another point that the internet is another entity is falty because its man made. Majority of deity's in the world are much more supreme and all knowing. A program made to connect the world and make life easier is only as smart as the programmer. The internet in all is electricity run and is the machines that keep it running. part of the reason people can turn it off and on.


I only brought up the internet as an example of something that exists as more of an 'idea' than as a physical 'thing'. Yes yes I know about the electrons moving around that make up the internet, if you argue that then you obviously failed to see my actual point.

Btw, entity doesn't mean anything celestial, its just...ugh go look up the definition will you?



I am only answering the question in how it was asked. I get what you mean but just thinking something exists (should of used gravity as an example), And entitiy just there being something there.
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Chaoticraven wrote:

oh if i insulted you i didn't mean to, i my self am a agnaustic but i lean really close to atheism (basically only reason i am agnaustic is because of gravity and such).


I don't think you meant it to be insulting, but I wouldn't have taken much offense if you did anyway. Words don't usually mean enough to me to anger me, and it's certainly not worth getting upset over what I thought was (but is apparently not) a misunderstanding.

It seems like we're fairly mature here. Can't say much for the other threads, though...
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Regulus133 wrote:

This thread is already pretty slow, so if you have other ideas but are waiting for someone else to bring them up, you might want to state them now.



I dont really mind it being slow if it actually offers quality material to consider.

I would much rather have a slow topic with long tedious posts that forces you to think instead of a fast+alive topic with posts that look like:


"ZOMFG YOU ARE WRONG GTFO LOLZ"

that.

Either way, something struck my attention when reading one of your posts:

Given that our logical/reasoning abilities are flawed, should we even attempt a continued pursuit of what is right?

The answer given was to acknowledge our shortcomings but still move onward.

But if we do take that option (which we already have) would that not create a set of false truths riddled with holes where what is 'true' is actually 'false'?

This leads me to believe that we have already forsaken truth for...practicality, but we are indecisive. No matter how many times we force ourselves to walk the beaten path of the world, the creative and curious minds constantly wander back to pondering a 'truth'. In a sense, not only the communication of ideas, but the formulation of new ideas themselves in one's mind is a form of, quoting you, 'mental masterbation'.

So now we're looking down three distinct paths:

Path one leads us towards a sucessful career/life, we disregard all that is not directly necessary for everyday life and work for the sole purpose of furthering ourselves in the world in terms of money and power. This is a correct path.

Path two leads us towards a doubtful life. It might be meaningful, it might be completely meaningless. We ponder the true nature of existence and end up in the end with nothing but a very big headache. But at least we didn't live our lives like fools only bending towards the will of society and the world. This is a correct path.

Path three leads us towards a hypocritical life. We ponder these ideas, yet we do not act on them. We know the truth yet we do not do what the truth says we should. In the end, we disregard truth for comfort of a peaceful/happy life. This is a correct path.

Seems like no matter what we do, we end up being right...and horribly wrong.
---------------------

If you see any errors with these 'paths' I have brought up or if you have any more to add, please feel free to do so.
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Regulus133 wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:

oh if i insulted you i didn't mean to, i my self am a agnaustic but i lean really close to atheism (basically only reason i am agnaustic is because of gravity and such).


I don't think you meant it to be insulting, but I wouldn't have taken much offense if you did anyway. Words don't usually mean enough to me to anger me, and it's certainly not worth getting upset over what I thought was (but is apparently not) a misunderstanding.

It seems like we're fairly mature here. Can't say much for the other threads, though...


:D I like to argue alot but won't go so far to insult the person
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:


Regulus133 wrote:

This thread is already pretty slow, so if you have other ideas but are waiting for someone else to bring them up, you might want to state them now.



I dont really mind it being slow if it actually offers quality material to consider.

I would much rather have a slow topic with long tedious posts that forces you to think instead of a fast+alive topic with posts that look like:


"ZOMFG YOU ARE WRONG GTFO LOLZ"

that.

Either way, something struck my attention when reading one of your posts:

Given that our logical/reasoning abilities are flawed, should we even attempt a continued pursuit of what is right?

The answer given was to acknowledge our shortcomings but still move onward.

But if we do take that option (which we already have) would that not create a set of false truths riddled with holes where what is 'true' is actually 'false'?

This leads me to believe that we have already forsaken truth for...practicality, but we are indecisive. No matter how many times we force ourselves to walk the beaten path of the world, the creative and curious minds constantly wander back to pondering a 'truth'. In a sense, not only the communication of ideas, but the formulation of new ideas themselves in one's mind is a form of, quoting you, 'mental masterbation'.

So now we're looking down three distinct paths:

Path one leads us towards a sucessful career/life, we disregard all that is not directly necessary for everyday life and work for the sole purpose of furthering ourselves in the world in terms of money and power. This is a correct path.

Path two leads us towards a doubtful life. It might be meaningful, it might be completely meaningless. We ponder the true nature of existence and end up in the end with nothing but a very big headache. But at least we didn't live our lives like fools only bending towards the will of society and the world. This is a correct path.

Path three leads us towards a hypocritical life. We ponder these ideas, yet we do not act on them. We know the truth yet we do not do what the truth says we should. In the end, we disregard truth for comfort of a peaceful/happy life. This is a correct path.

Seems like no matter what we do, we end up being right...and horribly wrong.
---------------------

If you see any errors with these 'paths' I have brought up or if you have any more to add, please feel free to do so.


Just a small question... are we still going to continue with the forum topic or move on?
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Chaoticraven wrote:


excalion wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:

You asked how you could be an atheist but believe.. its called agnaustic basically fence sitters in this argument, and your explanation of god is slightly contradicting. You seem to be indecisive. God being in the imagination, hmm basically a god is something that seems to have a superior understanding then everyone, is basically what people believe. So what occurs is the ass kissing of something bigger then you (metaphorically).

1. Existence is something that is 'there'? No in my point of view, because we are beings who have constant thought no matter what. Even when you think your not thinking your still thinking. So its a hallucination of thoughts that are jumbled up.
2. Ethereal existence is a higher form than physical existence? No because as an atheist i believe in physically existence. Ethereal existence is usually mistaken for thoughts and insight into things.
3. Everyone in the world, believers and nonbelievers alike, are able to comprehend 'God'? People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized"


Quote me on it if you wanna go further into it!!!



ok..so

Other than what regulus already pointed out.

1. What exactly are you implying here? How does our thoughts being a hallucination have anything to do with existence being something that is 'there'?
2. I'm changing the word ethereal here as it has way too many definitions and a lot of them has nothing to do with what I'm actually trying to say.
3. I quote "People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized""
^^^^^ That's almost what I'm trying to say, unless you mean something completely different from what you actually said.



1. I was saying that the feeling that there is somethign there is actually intuition, and thoughts mixed.
2. basically i answered the question in the context it was written.
3. No i meant what i said but i don't see where you said that... although i didn't read other pages and posts


Ahem, I'm going to go change the OP so we dont go through the same thing every time a person joins lol
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:


excalion wrote:


Chaoticraven wrote:

You asked how you could be an atheist but believe.. its called agnaustic basically fence sitters in this argument, and your explanation of god is slightly contradicting. You seem to be indecisive. God being in the imagination, hmm basically a god is something that seems to have a superior understanding then everyone, is basically what people believe. So what occurs is the ass kissing of something bigger then you (metaphorically).

1. Existence is something that is 'there'? No in my point of view, because we are beings who have constant thought no matter what. Even when you think your not thinking your still thinking. So its a hallucination of thoughts that are jumbled up.
2. Ethereal existence is a higher form than physical existence? No because as an atheist i believe in physically existence. Ethereal existence is usually mistaken for thoughts and insight into things.
3. Everyone in the world, believers and nonbelievers alike, are able to comprehend 'God'? People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized"


Quote me on it if you wanna go further into it!!!



ok..so

Other than what regulus already pointed out.

1. What exactly are you implying here? How does our thoughts being a hallucination have anything to do with existence being something that is 'there'?
2. I'm changing the word ethereal here as it has way too many definitions and a lot of them has nothing to do with what I'm actually trying to say.
3. I quote "People feel the need they have to have something over them that guides them, In my point of view i find this valid because the morals associated with God and such help society stay "civilized""
^^^^^ That's almost what I'm trying to say, unless you mean something completely different from what you actually said.



1. I was saying that the feeling that there is somethign there is actually intuition, and thoughts mixed.
2. basically i answered the question in the context it was written.
3. No i meant what i said but i don't see where you said that... although i didn't read other pages and posts


Ahem, I'm going to go change the OP so we dont go through the same thing every time a person joins lol


sounds good D: .... i see this might actually branch into morals....
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:

Either way, something struck my attention when reading one of your posts:

Given that our logical/reasoning abilities are flawed, should we even attempt a continued pursuit of what is right?

The answer given was to acknowledge our shortcomings but still move onward.

But if we do take that option (which we already have) would that not create a set of false truths riddled with holes where what is 'true' is actually 'false'?

This leads me to believe that we have already forsaken truth for...practicality, but we are indecisive. No matter how many times we force ourselves to walk the beaten path of the world, the creative and curious minds constantly wander back to pondering a 'truth'. In a sense, not only the communication of ideas, but the formulation of new ideas themselves in one's mind is a form of, quoting you, 'mental masterbation'.

So now we're looking down three distinct paths:

Path one leads us towards a sucessful career/life, we disregard all that is not directly necessary for everyday life and work for the sole purpose of furthering ourselves in the world in terms of money and power. This is a correct path.

Path two leads us towards a doubtful life. It might be meaningful, it might be completely meaningless. We ponder the true nature of existence and end up in the end with nothing but a very big headache. But at least we didn't live our lives like fools only bending towards the will of society and the world. This is a correct path.

Path three leads us towards a hypocritical life. We ponder these ideas, yet we do not act on them. We know the truth yet we do not do what the truth says we should. In the end, we disregard truth for comfort of a peaceful/happy life. This is a correct path.

Seems like no matter what we do, we end up being right...and horribly wrong.
---------------------

If you see any errors with these 'paths' I have brought up or if you have any more to add, please feel free to do so.


I only say that our reasoning abilities might be flawed. This is troublesome enough, of course, since we end up without certainty in our conclusions, just like we would if we used our emotions or created an entirely random system to try to organize reality. We tell ourselves that it's better because it's consistent and yields pleasant results, but our very judgments of "consistent" and "pleasant" are based on that system. One begins to wonder why we bother.

If we completely abandon our systems, we're left with nothing. And, with nothing, we would again begin to build up something. It's basically like anarchy - if everyone is free to do what he wants, groups will inevitably emerge to dominate the others, leading everyone right back out of anarchy. On the other hand, we're faced with errors and lies if we accept our systems. We could try to be aware of the holes, but we could never manage all of them. Besides, we'd begin to pursue those holes in an attempt to understand them, ultimately forming new systems. That's just how our minds work.

Science, reason, common sense... truth be told, these are no more than the amassing of perceptions and the subsequent weeding out of the minority. Since the minority is often very much a minority (the insane are a part of it), the majority feels it can dismiss them without a second thought. Sure, it makes sense, but that doesn't mean it's right.

All this talk sounds pretty close to solipsism and the like, and I can certainly understand, being a reasonable person myself, why others would dismiss it as useful thought. We "must" choose what seems to work the best. But I think that important questions do arise from this thinking - it's just that they must be answered and dealt with by the individual, not anyone else.

This leads us to your paths. I would say that they are all the same in terms of knowledge, at least as far as we can know. Maybe #2 would lead to better self-awareness and, therefore, an ability to avoid problems in life, but this is counteracted by the time spent on thinking and the problems that arise from it. Consistent with my own view of the individual as most important, I won't try to impose this as an absolute either, but: happiness seems the most important. You might say that feelings are something of which we can be certain. "I feel good" - this is real, this is desirable; therefore, I will do what it takes to continue feeling good. It is not so simple with thinking, right? The problem you face here is how to perpetuate that feeling. It's not always as simple as A->B, because we sometimes have to do things that make us unhappy for the sake of ultimately being happy, and we can have no certainty that it will all work out.

So it looks like all is hopeless then, right? Maybe not if we're able to let go of the things that have meaning to us, the things that have power over us, the things that hold us down - and these are all one and the same. You know, the more I think of it, this sounds like Buddhism. I love how the mind works.

Even if that isn't a viable route, suicide is an option. I fully support everyone's right to end his own life. If it all gets so bad, one can always stop and ask himself if it's at a point where living is no longer worthwhile or if there is still some good to be found. None of us is bound to unhappiness, but we may feel that way because suicide is portrayed negatively, or in fact never mentioned. It is, in some minds, not an option, and should not be for anyone. But it is still there.

Of course, we could jump into a discussion on free will, completely trashing that view that we can just choose, but it's all circles when thinking is concerned.

But yeah, you're right. Right and horribly wrong. Which may as well be neither.
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08
All this has gotten me kinda bamboozled and WAAAAAAY off track from my schoolwork.

Anyway, like you Regulus, I have a great interest in how the mind works. Of course, I tend to think about the human mind, why we feel a certain emotion, what's the purpose of these emotions, and then, can these emotions be manipulated for a cause (emotion as an example).
So basically, I seek understanding so that it may possibly be used, exploited if you will. It sounds quite similar to the general human mentality, with science being an understanding of things so that they can be used, religion being an understanding of life (and other stuff) so we can "live properly" etcetc. I don't seem to have a point but oh well.

The points made in this thread all interest me on varying levels, but I think the points that relate to me more than others creates more of an effect on me, maybe even understood with more ease. While breaking down our ideas down from the social effects to physical effects and then down to compromising reality, we've probably gone off track a bit, and it got a bit tedious reading those long posts on something that doesn't relate to me, or humans for that matter, anymore.

Excalion, your 3 path analogy brought it back round to relating it back to our human lives (and brought back my attention). Heres my thoughts on that topic, possibly with some reference to my own experiences:

Path #1 is probably what most of the human population is doing. I think, with this mentality, you get your typical social heirarchy-fearing, judgemental humans who, frankly, only shows me how strong the sense of conformation is, in todays society. (If that made much sense)
When I think of this path, I think Paris Hiltons, GREED, sex purely for pleasure/bragging rights, relationships only for reputation (hot women seem to make their men successful and worthy of worship), immoral ways of making money, basically things that either cause suffering, or exist for reasons that don't hold meaning anymore. I seem to be relating a lot of todays problems within society with this path.
What I think this is, is that people are focusing too much on their own personal gain, and aren't thinking things through enough. I'm really curious to see how many people think "Hold on, why do I need _____?" be it money, big brand clothing, 5 girlfriends/20boyfriends, more corn, huge muscles, tighter thighs etc.
Then I'd like to find out how many people wish they were "wiser", rather than richer.
I guess I'm saying, I think people nowadays are lacking the ability to think, or they just don't use it enough. It's purely my opinion, and it's probably completely wrong/pointless, and I actually really want to be disproved. I seemed to have grown to hate my own specie. (As well as be fascinated by it)

Path #2 is what I seem to be looking at. I'm kinda losing focus and time, so I'll be brief. This path seems to attract people who use their brain, who think things through before acting and generally well mannered. Looking just at the people in this thread and comparing them to, let's say, to the majority of CRoll members, there is a distinct difference in intellect (I feel like I'm not making any sense, but you know what I'm talking about =3). Also, I feel like the deep thinkers/philosophers tend to have a greater sense of empathy, which, I guess, very basically leads to a better person. I doubt there are very many philosophers who go out raping women or assaulting people for money. You get the picture.
Maybe more on this another day.

Path #3 sounds like your shot at Christians and stuff, but I know what you mean. I've lost all meaning to this post.
On another perspective, it seems that Path #1 is aimed at the hard workers, working for a "happy future" of luxury and such, whilst Path #3 are the people who live life by the day (to the extremity), striving for happiness with no consideration of the future.

ANYWAY, what do you guys think? And furthermore (extension) how could we further the use of this kind of understanding (of the things in this thread) to use it for benefit of our personal lives?
I think that being interested in these kinds of deep topics has helped me further the control of my thoughts and my brain, while my personality has been affected by the consequential skill of empathy (like wondering why people would care about this).
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Ten_Sa_Zan_Getsu wrote:

its hard to tell, its been the biggest mystery in my life. if god do really exist or not! a piece of paper or a word from someone that god does really exist is not enough to prove anything, we can't even find a fact that god really do exist. oh but there's this christian who told me to read the bible couple of times and a sign will appear... i haven't tried it yet... :D

haha good point ^_~
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

rhyme_playah wrote:


Ten_Sa_Zan_Getsu wrote:

its hard to tell, its been the biggest mystery in my life. if god do really exist or not! a piece of paper or a word from someone that god does really exist is not enough to prove anything, we can't even find a fact that god really do exist. oh but there's this christian who told me to read the bible couple of times and a sign will appear... i haven't tried it yet... :D

haha good point ^_~


oh thank you!but i heard that some scientist found a DNA of Jesus of Nazareth, and think they're trying to make some clone out of it...haha how can they even say that it was really the DNA of Jesus of Nazareth???mystery again...LOL
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

Ten_Sa_Zan_Getsu wrote:


rhyme_playah wrote:


Ten_Sa_Zan_Getsu wrote:

its hard to tell, its been the biggest mystery in my life. if god do really exist or not! a piece of paper or a word from someone that god does really exist is not enough to prove anything, we can't even find a fact that god really do exist. oh but there's this christian who told me to read the bible couple of times and a sign will appear... i haven't tried it yet... :D

haha good point ^_~


oh thank you!but i heard that some scientist found a DNA of Jesus of Nazareth, and think they're trying to make some clone out of it...haha how can they even say that it was really the DNA of Jesus of Nazareth???mystery again...LOL

oh and the thing that been used when jesus died? the paper he was wrapped in? well archeologist discovered it wasnt even as old as when jesus died... another mystery ^_~
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Posted 1/19/08 , edited 4/18/08

excalion wrote:

Here we are faced with a rather abnormal comparison.

Say, I hold a knife in my hand, and I continue to tell you, I can slice an orange in half with this knife.

At this point, you may believe me, you may not.

But when I actually do slice an orange in half in front of your eyes, you will believe me more.

This of course is the normal progression of events.

However, consider this.

I hold a knife in my hand, and I continue to tell you, if I stab you with this knife, you will die.

At this point, you may believe me, you may not.

But when I actually do stab you and you do die, you will believe me more. But what is left of you TO believe me if you are dead?

ahem...my point is in there somewhere, I promise XD



. . . . . . . . .so. . . . . yeah? What are you getting at?

Are you saying that when I die I can't believe? Well have you died? So how can you assuredly say that?

Furthermore what does it prove? With each scenario you pose, you are straying further and further away from the topic at hand: Ethereal vs. Physical.

Maybe you were tired when writing that....?


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