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Is the online pass bad for gaming?
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Posted 10/13/11

@Lauriet
(...) In which case, there should have become an increase in quality.

There hasn't been any sort of spike in quality whatsoever.


Arguably, the increase in quality has been shoved into HD visuals.

Ignoring the Wii (unless you want to factor in Dolphin), compare last gen's graphics to this gen's graphics. Now, I'm not one to play a game solely due to how pretty it looks (FFS, I was playing text adventures before moving to the NES), but there are people that would play a pretty looking game with crappy gameplay over a not so polished looking game with better gameplay. Replace "gameplay" with just about any other modifier, like VA work, online multiplayer, split screen, etc etc, and you'll find someone who adamantly requires that specific modifier to be able to enjoy their game to the fullest.


@Aero-Mach
Good Will doesn't pay Southpole and Nike's for selling their shoes and shirts.

As much as companies want to, you just can't keep getting paid for something already made a profit off of.


Bad analogy. Good Will is not-for-profit, whereas Gamestop/etc are for-profit. Thing is, retail box stores do buy their games to sell it for profit; Good Will gets them as donations, so obviously they don't pay any of the companies to sell their merchandise.

And I beg to differ on that second line.
Let's say I purchase a used inkjet printer; whether it be the brand name ink cartridge or a compatible cart, I'm still giving some company some sort of profit to continue using that used item. Odds are, it's wherever I got the refurb'd unit, since consumers are lazy like that. Or to keep it related to gaming, I buy a used console; if at any point I purchase a new game or buy one through a download service, I just gave the console maker some extra profit, despite them getting zero profit from my purchase of a used console.

As for TerraGamerX's point about games being digital goods, yup; what you're physically buying at retail is the software, not the disc it's printed on. Otherwise, if games were physical goods, we'd only have to foot the bill for the disc, not the contents of the disc itself. I mean, look at the recent trends of trying to get to a digital/download only marketplace, like what the PSPGo and, to a lesser extent, what the Vita is trying to accomplish. Or heck, what if everything was like Patapon 2 at retail?

And here's a breakdown of how much goes back to the publisher, since you seem hooked on that point
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/anatomy-of-a-60-dollar-video-game.html

Thing is, you also seem hooked on "requiring" to pay the pub/dev after a sale when, in all honesty, you don't. If I rent a game that uses an Online Pass system, am I required to connect online to play the game? At this point in time, that's an unequivocal no. When we get to the point where you'll need to connect online to get beyond the title screen (much like some of Ubisoft's much chagrined DRM methods, but if this were behind a paywall), sure; right now, the only thing locked away is optional content and online multiplayer. DLC isn't required to complete a game... yet. And no, filling out gamerscore/trophies doesn't count, unless you can't physically get to the end credits without them, and to my knowledge, there isn't such a game on the market yet that does this.

But you know what I think is crap? Locking single player content behind one of these one-time use online passes.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-13-batman-online-pass-unlocks-catwoman

Or those subscription models that EA is trying with their core sports games, and I think CoD's subscription model with their stat tracking, which Halo gives you for free. Is it for me? No. I just dislike them

Oh, and I'm also waiting for your name, like Ouch4u, to look up your game credits
Posted 10/13/11

Koriandr wrote:


@Lauriet
(...) In which case, there should have become an increase in quality.

There hasn't been any sort of spike in quality whatsoever.


Arguably, the increase in quality has been shoved into HD visuals.

Ignoring the Wii (unless you want to factor in Dolphin), compare last gen's graphics to this gen's graphics. Now, I'm not one to play a game solely due to how pretty it looks (FFS, I was playing text adventures before moving to the NES), but there are people that would play a pretty looking game with crappy gameplay over a not so polished looking game with better gameplay. Replace "gameplay" with just about any other modifier, like VA work, online multiplayer, split screen, etc etc, and you'll find someone who adamantly requires that specific modifier to be able to enjoy their game to the fullest.


@Aero-Mach
Good Will doesn't pay Southpole and Nike's for selling their shoes and shirts.

As much as companies want to, you just can't keep getting paid for something already made a profit off of.


Bad analogy. Good Will is not-for-profit, whereas Gamestop/etc are for-profit. Thing is, retail box stores do buy their games to sell it for profit; Good Will gets them as donations, so obviously they don't pay any of the companies to sell their merchandise.

And I beg to differ on that second line.
Let's say I purchase a used inkjet printer; whether it be the brand name ink cartridge or a compatible cart, I'm still giving some company some sort of profit to continue using that used item. Odds are, it's wherever I got the refurb'd unit, since consumers are lazy like that. Or to keep it related to gaming, I buy a used console; if at any point I purchase a new game or buy one through a download service, I just gave the console maker some extra profit, despite them getting zero profit from my purchase of a used console.

As for TerraGamerX's point about games being digital goods, yup; what you're physically buying at retail is the software, not the disc it's printed on. Otherwise, if games were physical goods, we'd only have to foot the bill for the disc, not the contents of the disc itself. I mean, look at the recent trends of trying to get to a digital/download only marketplace, like what the PSPGo and, to a lesser extent, what the Vita is trying to accomplish. Or heck, what if everything was like Patapon 2 at retail?

And here's a breakdown of how much goes back to the publisher, since you seem hooked on that point
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/anatomy-of-a-60-dollar-video-game.html

Thing is, you also seem hooked on "requiring" to pay the pub/dev after a sale when, in all honesty, you don't. If I rent a game that uses an Online Pass system, am I required to connect online to play the game? At this point in time, that's an unequivocal no. When we get to the point where you'll need to connect online to get beyond the title screen (much like some of Ubisoft's much chagrined DRM methods, but if this were behind a paywall), sure; right now, the only thing locked away is optional content and online multiplayer. DLC isn't required to complete a game... yet. And no, filling out gamerscore/trophies doesn't count, unless you can't physically get to the end credits without them, and to my knowledge, there isn't such a game on the market yet that does this.

But you know what I think is crap? Locking single player content behind one of these one-time use online passes.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-13-batman-online-pass-unlocks-catwoman

Or those subscription models that EA is trying with their core sports games, and I think CoD's subscription model with their stat tracking, which Halo gives you for free. Is it for me? No. I just dislike them

Oh, and I'm also waiting for your name, like Ouch4u, to look up your game credits


The goal for this pass is to have gaming on consoles end up like PC, no second hand sales at all.

No online pass means no online content,

Trophies, content, and many others are broken with an online pass.

Did you miss my link about Rage? And how was Good Will bad analogy? If it wasn't for profit, it wouldn't cost money, if its because they don't get it directly from companies, than it'll be the same for used games, you don't get it directly from the company, thats why they broke your game. -- Aimed at you ^^, nothing else is though.

MAG is an online only game published by.... I don't actually know. Let's assume it's published by Sony. if they were to lock out the online content, it would have been the whole game since MAG is solely online.

Uncharted 3 has this online pass, which means the multiplayer -- online multiplayer feature is locked out.

To fully completely Uncharted 3(Side quests in all), online is required, If you rent a game to try out online, and the online is blocked out.... then what?

Rage locks out content on Singleplayer, What if you have no online and your friend handed you a copy? It'd be essentially broken,

This breaks the "Free" internet model with PSN Sony tried to impose, first PSN Gold or whatever, now a fee to play used games?

I heard numerous arguments from Sony elitist saying. "You pay to use their network."

Why would you pay to use a "Free" network? The free online model has been diminished and technically the fee to get online now is apparently included in the game.

Uncharted 3(If bought used) is half the game it should have been, no online, no versus and Uncharted 3 has trophies which is on disc, which means, Much like ON-DISC DLC, part of your game is locked.

This business practice will spread to consoles and more of the game if this is untouched, and if Sony's fans kneel down with this request, no doubt Sony is going to extend it.

Like I said, if it was up too be, I'd have Sony go under, I can't see any reason why the technology company needs them, I was hoping apple releases a console and replace Sony, or buy them out and make them release something that isn't a pathetic knock off that explodes...

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Posted 10/13/11
Online Pass and the majority of DLC is the reason why I'm not playing many new games anymore. Sony just lost a customer by applying it to all 1st party titles.

So glad I waited to purchase GTAIV after I saw Rockstar make a "complete collection", since it has the main game and all the DLC on two discs. Did I mention it was under $40 too?

Now I just wait for big releases like that because they might have a bonus disc full of content that you had to download.

You should see the games that was played on my Xbox Live account, and by looking at that, I'm sure many of you don't want to add me to your list. Gamertag is Squirrel3D, if you're interested.

But anyway if this online pass and DLC gets out of control in the entire industry...ie Nintendo gives into the pressure, well let's just say we've had one console crash back in the 80's.

I'm just saying.

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Posted 10/13/11

Aero-Mach wrote:

The goal for this pass is to have gaming on consoles end up like PC, no second hand sales at all.

No online pass means no online content,

Trophies, content, and many others are broken with an online pass.

Did you miss my link about Rage? And how was Good Will bad analogy? If it wasn't for profit, it wouldn't cost money, if its because they don't get it directly from companies, than it'll be the same for used games, you don't get it directly from the company, thats why they broke your game. -- Aimed at you ^^, nothing else is though.


Correlation does not imply causation

The goal of the pass, as first introduced by EA, was to recoup sales from the secondhand market, as shown here: [ http://www.1up.com/news/report-games-blamed-sales-decline ]. That handy sales breakdown earlier shows you what the publisher gets back in return with a new copy; that 2.39 billion USD is something the pubs/devs aren't seeing, since a used sale means a retailer didn't have to replenish their stock with a new copy. Is it pure profit on GS's/other used retailer's part? No, a large part of that funds their own operations, like employment et al. I do think there should be a sort of happy medium between retailer and pub/dev, and if the Online Pass is the means to do it, so be it.

It doesn't currently affect me, since I buy new, given what "discount" used affords me. But I'm not ignoring the issue, since I can see that, potentially, it can (and will) affect me by putting said game behind a paywall after purchase. In particular, with this gen's horizon coming in sight, any backwards compatible console will directly effect all of my games that use these one-time passes. Did I buy it new? Yes. With what's currently known (albeit, barely anything is known outside of the Wii U), will I be able to transfer these online transactions to the next console? Currently, it looks like a no, despite the new sale.

Additionally, since the goal of the Online Pass is to cut down on secondhand sale profits, and could potentially drive down chains like GS who rely on those used sales to keep afloat; it's another reason I've been keeping my eye on the sitch. When I can't go to the store and buy any physical games I'll be pretty sad, since that'll mean digital distro's the only method to get games, should that time ever come. With only one method to get games, price competition goes away and we'll barely see any discounts/deals, unless something like Steam hits the consoles... which I don't really see happening with how the Big 3 like to control what's available. No more waiting three/six/twelve months after release, hoping to score the game new at a lower price point on that blockbuster game you passed on

But again, I bring up that thus far, everything locked away behind an Online Pass is entirely optional. Online multiplayer is optional. Extra missions, DLC or not, is optional. Putting that content in the hands of achievements/trophies and trying to max those out is again, optional. This is equivalent to saying you'd have to beat the Mega Man games on the NES with the "Mr. Perfect" achievement (ie, no damage runs) before actually "finishing" the game. It's a self-imposed challenge, and doesn't directly affect getting to the end of the game, yet it's an achievement in MM9/10.

If you agree that that specific accomplishment is not necessary for completing the game on the NES, then why would its inclusion on the 360/PS3 and standalone Wii game save be any different? To further labor the point, what if getting that achievement/trophy was put behind DLC? Can you get to the end of the game without it? Yes. So what if the Online Pass keeps you from getting a perfect gamerscore/set of trophies? What're you gonna do with that number/set of digital icons, trade it in for money?

And no, I've kept up with Rage; it's just as chutzpah2930 says. Did you miss the part about the game credits? As for Good Will, I explained it right where it was quoted; methinks you don't understand what not-for-profit means. It doesn't mean "everything's free," you know
Posted 10/14/11

And no, I've kept up with Rage; it's just as chutzpah2930 says. Did you miss the part about the game credits? As for Good Will, I explained it right where it was quoted; methinks you don't understand what not-for-profit means. It doesn't mean "everything's free," you know ;)


Maybe you missed what I was driving at, but's okay. :P

I never said it wasn't optional, as it is, a trophy becomes unobtainable for completionists,

Side quests are optional no? What if a pass code was needed for those? I never argued argued optional or not optional, what I drove at is the principle.

On the Good Will issue, no one seems to catch this one.

On the Gamestop issue, a interesting point that people miss out on Gamestop is that, the money Gamestop gets, is pretty much owned by all working Americans, and the money either goes to your mom or your sister.

Regardless whether or not it's optional, it should be available.

Whatever is on the disc should be available used or otherwise, if they decided. "If you don't buy it new, then you don't get free DLC." That's fine, or. "If you don't get it new than you don't get the DLC discounts." That would be A-Okay with me(And other people too).

chutzpah2930 is not a member you wanna recall for a point.....
Posted 10/14/11

squirrel3d wrote:

Online Pass and the majority of DLC is the reason why I'm not playing many new games anymore. Sony just lost a customer by applying it to all 1st party titles.

So glad I waited to purchase GTAIV after I saw Rockstar make a "complete collection", since it has the main game and all the DLC on two discs. Did I mention it was under $40 too?

Now I just wait for big releases like that because they might have a bonus disc full of content that you had to download.

You should see the games that was played on my Xbox Live account, and by looking at that, I'm sure many of you don't want to add me to your list. Gamertag is Squirrel3D, if you're interested.

But anyway if this online pass and DLC gets out of control in the entire industry...ie Nintendo gives into the pressure, well let's just say we've had one console crash back in the 80's.

I'm just saying.



Intelligent comment!

It seems that people like to only think from business perspectives, I'm not sure it's because of low self-esteem, or they think of it as a good way because they imagine their favorite game developer getting more money.

Than there's the classic selfish act Americans like to throw up.


"I don't care because it doesn't affect it."


People who support this.... Or a bunch of them are Sony fanboys(Not calling anyone out), and my source of this information is IGN, Sony fans jumped on this business practice despite the fact it doesn't benefit the consumer in anyway.

You can't have a passcode and Paid-DLC Sony, pick one or the other.

People who want less for their money confuse me, and this type of attitude is what let corporations go further until there's no such thing as quality, only money.

The gaming industry -- No, just the Playstation 3 will soon be locked down like PC, no second sales to speak off, if Microsoft and Nintendo follow suit, the industry is over until a company with creativity saves it like Nintendo once did.

Who do you think will be the hero of gaming?

Android powered game console?

Apple?

Yahoo! Releasing a console?

Will Sega return?
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