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The Old Homosexuality/Bisexuality as Choice debate..
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Posted 2/15/12 , edited 2/15/12

xXGintamaXx wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

If homosexuality or any other sex/gender "deviation from the norm" is really a choice how come I had to battle for 40+ years with my Homophobic upbringing before I accepted that I was a member of the LGBT community? Why couldn't I have just been straight? Why the decades of misery. To anyone who trivializes that journey as a choice. I say: fuck you.


Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


I'm going to start with an apology and clarification. My earlier post was written in anger and uses intemperate language. Let's see if I can make myself clear.

I did not say I was gay. I currently self-identify as a member of the LGBT community. Which makes me 'gay enough' for the anti-gay up bringing and the messages I received from my society to keep this aspect of my self identity buried so deep that I would have denied it existed.

If homosexuality or other aspects of personality that do not conform to current or past societal norms are as easy and trivial as deciding weather I prefer Strawberry or Vanilla shakes, why did my very self rebel and inflict pain and confusion upon me for 'choosing' to be straight.

Insisting that I CHOSE that pain and insisting that sexual Orientation and/or Gender are just 'life styles' trivializes that pain and those years of self-analysis.

People who call it a 'choice' thus make me feel insulted and angry.

---
Your own post confuses me greatly.

Homophobia is not a real word? ... okay?... But There IS a real phenomenon of people being bullied, discriminated against, treated with contempt and even slyly and 'reasonably' argued with about their 'life style choice' with the intent to 'cure' them or at least invalidate their self worth. Most people I know call it homophobia. What do you call it? or will you deny the phenomena exists?

Like all labels, homophobia can be mus-applied. I agree that just because someone disagrees with an assertion in support of gay people, is insufficient evidence to assert that said disagreement makes that person a homophobe. But where do you get off telling me that MY categorization of MY upbringing is a similar error? You don't know me. I consider the way I was brought up and the messages I have received from certain forces in my society to be sufficiently homophobic to greatly inhibit my own self-awareness as a member of the LGBT community.

Consequences of my actions? Validate my Life Style choice? please clarify.. Seriously What the heck are you talking about?



. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


We have, for a while yet, freedom of speech. You are free to voice your opinions. I am equally free to voice my opinions of your opinions. you are free to assert 'facts'. I am free to claim they are not facts and label them as opinions or even bullshit. You are free as is anyone else who chooses to post to this public forum to dispute MY assertions. THAT is what free speech means. If you do not wish to be argued with, I suggestion you keep your opinions until you are alone in the shower with the radio on. The purpose of this public forum 'Extended Discussion' is to have a format where you can put your opinions and facts to the test of anther's critique. Making a personal attack on me and then telling me that you 'do not want to argue' suggests that your assertions fail that test.






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xXGintamaXx wrote:

Here is my opinion;

First off, let me just say that I notice a lot of people getting Homosexuality/Gay and Bisexuality as two totally different things when actually they're the same but one is just a branch off of the other.


Anyways, being Gay IS a choice. No one is born Gay. Ever. If they are born Gay, then how come there are so many Ex-Gay's? You can never become a 'Ex' of something that you're born with. You never see any Ex-Blacks, Asians, French, etc. For proof of Ex-Gays, read stories from Exodus International.


My grandmother was an Ex-French, she was from the French Indo-China, and I see her everyday. Are you telling me that she doesn't actually exist? As for not being what you were born as, well, Michael Jackson was born as a African American, and died as a white man and most Amputees were born with a set of limbs, and had that cut off.



xXGintamaXx wrote:

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their[sic] homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


Yes, the word 'Homophobia' does exist. In fact, here is the OED on 'Homophobia'-


an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.


You may ask me if there is a point in all this, seeing as almost nothing addresses the topic of homosexuality as either a product of nature or choice, and my reply would be 'No', because that question is already settled by scientific inquiries on the very subject. There is no debate about whether it is a choice, here is the American Psychological Association on the subject:

American Psychological Associationwrote:
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

But, your post contain so much idiocy, I gave in to temptation to mock it.
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papagolfwhiskey wrote:


xXGintamaXx wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

If homosexuality or any other sex/gender "deviation from the norm" is really a choice how come I had to battle for 40+ years with my Homophobic upbringing before I accepted that I was a member of the LGBT community? Why couldn't I have just been straight? Why the decades of misery. To anyone who trivializes that journey as a choice. I say: fuck you.


Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


I'm going to start with an apology and clarification. My earlier post was written in anger and uses intemperate language. Let's see if I can make myself clear.

I did not say I was gay. I currently self-identify as a member of the LGBT community. Which makes me 'gay enough' for the anti-gay up bringing and the messages I received from my society to keep this aspect of my self identity buried so deep that I would have denied it existed.

If homosexuality or other aspects of personality that do not conform to current or past societal norms are as easy and trivial as deciding weather I prefer Strawberry or Vanilla shakes, why did my very self rebel and inflict pain and confusion upon me for 'choosing' to be straight.

Insisting that I CHOSE that pain and insisting that sexual Orientation and/or Gender are just 'life styles' trivializes that pain and those years of self-analysis.

People who call it a 'choice' thus make me feel insulted and angry.

---
Your own post confuses me greatly.

Homophobia is not a real word? ... okay?... But There IS a real phenomenon of people being bullied, discriminated against, treated with contempt and even slyly and 'reasonably' argued with about their 'life style choice' with the intent to 'cure' them or at least invalidate their self worth. Most people I know call it homophobia. What do you call it? or will you deny the phenomena exists?

Like all labels, homophobia can be mus-applied. I agree that just because someone disagrees with an assertion in support of gay people, is insufficient evidence to assert that said disagreement makes that person a homophobe. But where do you get off telling me that MY categorization of MY upbringing is a similar error? You don't know me. I consider the way I was brought up and the messages I have received from certain forces in my society to be sufficiently homophobic to greatly inhibit my own self-awareness as a member of the LGBT community.

Consequences of my actions? Validate my Life Style choice? please clarify.. Seriously What the heck are you talking about?



. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


We have, for a while yet, freedom of speech. You are free to voice your opinions. I am equally free to voice my opinions of your opinions. you are free to assert 'facts'. I am free to claim they are not facts and label them as opinions or even bullshit. You are free as is anyone else who chooses to post to this public forum to dispute MY assertions. THAT is what free speech means. If you do not wish to be argued with, I suggestion you keep your opinions until you are alone in the shower with the radio on. The purpose of this public forum 'Extended Discussion' is to have a format where you can put your opinions and facts to the test of anther's critique. Making a personal attack on me and then telling me that you 'do not want to argue' suggests that your assertions fail that test.











longfenglim wrote:


xXGintamaXx wrote:

Here is my opinion;

First off, let me just say that I notice a lot of people getting Homosexuality/Gay and Bisexuality as two totally different things when actually they're the same but one is just a branch off of the other.


Anyways, being Gay IS a choice. No one is born Gay. Ever. If they are born Gay, then how come there are so many Ex-Gay's? You can never become a 'Ex' of something that you're born with. You never see any Ex-Blacks, Asians, French, etc. For proof of Ex-Gays, read stories from Exodus International.


My grandmother was an Ex-French, she was from the French Indo-China, and I see her everyday. Are you telling me that she doesn't actually exist? As for not being what you were born as, well, Michael Jackson was born as a African American, and died as a white man and most Amputees were born with a set of limbs, and had that cut off.



xXGintamaXx wrote:

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their[sic] homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


Yes, the word 'Homophobia' does exist. In fact, here is the OED on 'Homophobia'-


an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.


You may ask me if there is a point in all this, seeing as almost nothing addresses the topic of homosexuality as either a product of nature or choice, and my reply would be 'No', because that question is already settled by scientific inquiries on the very subject. There is no debate about whether it is a choice, here is the American Psychological Association on the subject:

American Psychological Associationwrote:
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

But, your post contain so much idiocy, I gave in to temptation to mock it.


LOL.
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Posted 2/15/12

xXGintamaXx wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


xXGintamaXx wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

If homosexuality or any other sex/gender "deviation from the norm" is really a choice how come I had to battle for 40+ years with my Homophobic upbringing before I accepted that I was a member of the LGBT community? Why couldn't I have just been straight? Why the decades of misery. To anyone who trivializes that journey as a choice. I say: fuck you.


Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


I'm going to start with an apology and clarification. My earlier post was written in anger and uses intemperate language. Let's see if I can make myself clear.

I did not say I was gay. I currently self-identify as a member of the LGBT community. Which makes me 'gay enough' for the anti-gay up bringing and the messages I received from my society to keep this aspect of my self identity buried so deep that I would have denied it existed.

If homosexuality or other aspects of personality that do not conform to current or past societal norms are as easy and trivial as deciding weather I prefer Strawberry or Vanilla shakes, why did my very self rebel and inflict pain and confusion upon me for 'choosing' to be straight.

Insisting that I CHOSE that pain and insisting that sexual Orientation and/or Gender are just 'life styles' trivializes that pain and those years of self-analysis.

People who call it a 'choice' thus make me feel insulted and angry.

---
Your own post confuses me greatly.

Homophobia is not a real word? ... okay?... But There IS a real phenomenon of people being bullied, discriminated against, treated with contempt and even slyly and 'reasonably' argued with about their 'life style choice' with the intent to 'cure' them or at least invalidate their self worth. Most people I know call it homophobia. What do you call it? or will you deny the phenomena exists?

Like all labels, homophobia can be mus-applied. I agree that just because someone disagrees with an assertion in support of gay people, is insufficient evidence to assert that said disagreement makes that person a homophobe. But where do you get off telling me that MY categorization of MY upbringing is a similar error? You don't know me. I consider the way I was brought up and the messages I have received from certain forces in my society to be sufficiently homophobic to greatly inhibit my own self-awareness as a member of the LGBT community.

Consequences of my actions? Validate my Life Style choice? please clarify.. Seriously What the heck are you talking about?



. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


We have, for a while yet, freedom of speech. You are free to voice your opinions. I am equally free to voice my opinions of your opinions. you are free to assert 'facts'. I am free to claim they are not facts and label them as opinions or even bullshit. You are free as is anyone else who chooses to post to this public forum to dispute MY assertions. THAT is what free speech means. If you do not wish to be argued with, I suggestion you keep your opinions until you are alone in the shower with the radio on. The purpose of this public forum 'Extended Discussion' is to have a format where you can put your opinions and facts to the test of anther's critique. Making a personal attack on me and then telling me that you 'do not want to argue' suggests that your assertions fail that test.











longfenglim wrote:


xXGintamaXx wrote:

Here is my opinion;

First off, let me just say that I notice a lot of people getting Homosexuality/Gay and Bisexuality as two totally different things when actually they're the same but one is just a branch off of the other.


Anyways, being Gay IS a choice. No one is born Gay. Ever. If they are born Gay, then how come there are so many Ex-Gay's? You can never become a 'Ex' of something that you're born with. You never see any Ex-Blacks, Asians, French, etc. For proof of Ex-Gays, read stories from Exodus International.


My grandmother was an Ex-French, she was from the French Indo-China, and I see her everyday. Are you telling me that she doesn't actually exist? As for not being what you were born as, well, Michael Jackson was born as a African American, and died as a white man and most Amputees were born with a set of limbs, and had that cut off.



xXGintamaXx wrote:

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean that their[sic] homophobic. That word does not even exist. I am able to speak truth just as much as you are able to. Why get so upset if you choose the right thing? Just accept the consequences for your actions. By the way, just because you argue with someone on an internet forum doesn't validate your lifestyle choice. I'm on here to voice my opinions and not to argue.


Yes, the word 'Homophobia' does exist. In fact, here is the OED on 'Homophobia'-


an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.


You may ask me if there is a point in all this, seeing as almost nothing addresses the topic of homosexuality as either a product of nature or choice, and my reply would be 'No', because that question is already settled by scientific inquiries on the very subject. There is no debate about whether it is a choice, here is the American Psychological Association on the subject:

American Psychological Associationwrote:
What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

But, your post contain so much idiocy, I gave in to temptation to mock it.


LOL.


LOL? That's your answer? LOL? are you requesting that you be labeled as a troll?


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If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, probably a duck.
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JustineKo2 wrote:

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, probably a duck.


Yes, duly noted.


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xXGintamaXx wrote:
[…H]ow come there are so many Ex-Gay's? […] For proof of Ex-Gays, read stories from Exodus International.


Because I only have so much time, I cannot say everything I would like to, at least not in one night. For now, it is instructive to consider what a couple of the leaders of these "ex-gay" groups later had to say about the purpose and efficacy of their ministry:

  • John Evans was one of the founders of Love In Action. He left the group after his friend committed suicide over his inability to change. He denounced the group as dangerous, and said of it:

    They're destroying people's lives. If you don't do their thing, you're not of God, you'll go to hell. They're living in a fantasy world.
  • John Smid was the executive director of Love In Action, and he went so far as to get married to a woman. He parted ways with LIA after over 20 years of working with them, and very eloquently shared his feelings on his marriage and how ex-gay ministries can actually lead people away from Christ:

    I am homosexual, my wife is heterosexual. This creates a unique marriage experience that many do not understand. For many years I tried to fit into the box of heterosexuality. I tried my hardest to create heterosexuality in my life but this also created a lot of shame, a sense of failure, and discouragement. Nothing I did seemed to change me into a heterosexual even though I was in a marriage that included heterosexual behavior[…] My wife has never tried to fix me or change me in that area of our relationship. She truly unconditionally loves me. But this doesn’t change the fact that I am who I am and she is who she is.

    This is why I say things like “you can’t repent of homosexuality.” […] Far too many homosexuals who are seeking Christ perceive that they cannot come close to Him if they remain a homosexual. In this mindset they search feverishly for change that will not come to them.

    As to people changing, Smid states that even after two decades of involvement, he has never seen anyone change from homosexual to heterosexual:

    Yes, there are homosexuals that make dramatic changes in their lives as they walk through the transformation process with Jesus. I have heard story after story of changes that have occurred as men and women find the grace of God in their lives as homosexual people. But, I'm sorry, this transformation process may not meet the expectations of many Christians. I also want to reiterate here that the transformation for the vast majority of homosexuals will not include a change of sexual orientation. Actually I've never met a man who experienced a change from homosexual to heterosexual.

  • Michael Bussee was one of the co-founders of Exodus International, back in 1976. He married in hopes that it would help him develop heterosexual feelings. This did not work out:

    I loved my wife and we both thought over time God would create heterosexual feelings in me. Instead, I fell in love with my wife's best friend's husband.

    He also witnessed first-hand the damage that such groups can cause:

    There were suicide attempts. I had a guy in my group who took a razor blade to his genitals because he felt so guilty.
  • Gary Cooper, another of the co-founders of Exodus International, also left and is now married to Bussee. (See above.)
  • John Paulk was elected chairman of Exodus International for two terms; he was removed from this position in the second year, after being spotted in a gay club flirting with other men.
  • Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, states that many people cannot change their sexual orientation, but rather should hope to "live in accord with their beliefs and faith". He himself admits that he still experiences homosexual temptations. I suspect this is unusual for most heterosexual men.


As to how successful they are, for this I would direct you to Spitzer's 2001 paper on ex-gays, notable for being one of the few to conclude that change may be possible for a very small number of extremely motivated people, although not the sort of change you might imagine. If you are interested in this—and you should be, if you wish to state your opinion with any authority—then I can point you to some of the highlights.
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You can quote all the "writings" you want and it still will not change the fact that people are NOT born gay, that homosexuality is a life style choice, and that God created MAN and WOMAN for each other, and God does not make mistakes. God loves the sinner but hate SIN. Period. Just because people agree to live a gay lifestyle does not make them right., and just because others condone their lifestyle choice does not make it correct. This is beyond silly, and it is sad that you cannot accept the fact that I have a right to state my beliefs just as much as you can. The fact remains that being gay is a choice. Period.

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xXGintamaXx wrote:

You can quote all the "writings" you want and it still will not change the fact that people are NOT born gay, that homosexuality is a life style choice, and that God created MAN and WOMAN for each other, and God does not make mistakes. God loves the sinner but hate SIN. Period. Just because people agree to live a gay lifestyle does not make them right., and just because others condone their lifestyle choice does not make it correct. This is beyond silly, and it is sad that you cannot accept the fact that I have a right to state my beliefs just as much as you can. The fact remains that being gay is a choice. Period.



You introduced a very profound measuring stick to measure what is natural within humans and what is unnatural, that the naturallness of a quality should be measured by its permanence, what is impermanent qualities are simply the result of choice. With this parameter, you have shown us that, because certain Church people claimed to have been converted out of homosexuality, that it is therefore unnatural, a very remarkable proof, commendable in its thoughtfulness and thorough analysis. Through this, you have shown us that Homosexuality is a choice, and a terrible choice that goes against God, but, in your reply, I was dismayed when you speak of gender, that is, or man and woman, as if it were natural and permanent. In this age, many men and many women can lay claim to the fact that they have switched between these two genders at one point or another, which is, indeed, common, or at least common enough, and is assigned the name 'sex reassignment surgeries'. Therefore, by the same methodology, it is inconcievable to think of gender as anything but a choice. Thus, a woman has a choice in living a woman's lifestyle, that is, to own the characteristics necessary to make her a woman, and therefore can be chided and berated for her wicked choice to be a woman, just as a man can be praised for his choice in being a man.

Yet, whatever fault lies in your mistaken judgement over the issue of gender, there is commendation abounding in your defense of your rights agaisnt imagined and nonexistent violitions. Whereas the fools and knaves busily hack away at real and existing violations to their rights, such as actual censorship, you are fighting a even greater threat to our freedoms, imagined censorship, where the former has substance, and therefore, more easily attack, the latter is insubstantial, lacking in the quality of reality, making it impossible to destroy. Just as Xerxes, or Canute, or some king of old, in his wisdom, whipped the Ocean for her imagined disobidence, and thus praised, so too should you be praised for firmly standing up for your right to free speech against imagined oppression. If only Greengrocers and Shop-Keepers would follow your example and charge their customers for imagined purchases.
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xXGintamaXx wrote:

You can quote all the "writings" you want and it still will not change the fact that people are NOT born gay, that homosexuality is a life style choice, and that God created MAN and WOMAN for each other, and God does not make mistakes. God loves the sinner but hate SIN. Period. Just because people agree to live a gay lifestyle does not make them right., and just because others condone their lifestyle choice does not make it correct. This is beyond silly, and it is sad that you cannot accept the fact that I have a right to state my beliefs just as much as you can. The fact remains that being gay is a choice. Period.



Ah and the religious bigot. Finaly reveals her true colours. 'The End' you say? Farewell say I. There's no point in talking to you anymore.

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Free will.......you choose to do what you do.......
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IkkiTheFang wrote:

Free will.......you choose to do what you do.......


I see, so I must be male because I choose to be born with such and such genetic and physical characteristics that characterise me as male.
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You have no choice over physical being such as male or female but you do have a choice over your actions whether eat some sausage or eat a taco simply
of course metaphorically speaking with the food
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IkkiTheFang wrote:

You have no choice over physical being such as male or female but you do have a choice over your actions whether eat some sausage or eat a taco simply
of course metaphorically speaking with the food


Do I, then, have a choice in being born a homosexual, as affirmed by the multitudious and learned men of biology, of psychology, and of many other branches of science?
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longfenglim wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:

You have no choice over physical being such as male or female but you do have a choice over your actions whether eat some sausage or eat a taco simply
of course metaphorically speaking with the food


Do I, then, have a choice in being born a homosexual, as affirmed by the multitudious and learned men of biology, of psychology, and of many other branches of science?


Even if you are "born" homosexual you still choose to be that. me as a heterosexual still have the choice to be homosexual
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