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The Old Homosexuality/Bisexuality as Choice debate..
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Posted 2/28/12 , edited 2/28/12

xXGintamaXx wrote:
You can quote all the "writings" you want and it still will not change the fact that people are NOT born gay, that homosexuality is a life style choice, and that God created MAN and WOMAN for each other, and God does not make mistakes.


I wasn't just quoting anyone, I was quoting the President and founders of Exodus International. You asked us to look them up yourself.


This is beyond silly, and it is sad that you cannot accept the fact that I have a right to state my beliefs just as much as you can.


Gintama… Please calm down, there's no need to get upset. I never said you don't have the right to state your beliefs, and I don't think that at all. You have every right to state your beliefs, and I'm glad you're talking about them instead of just staying quiet.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here. You mentioned ex-gays, and pointed people to Exodus International as proof that they exist. As it happens, I've actually done a lot of research into ex-gays—more than most people, at least—and am sharing with you what I know about them.

I'm not trying to silence you or anything. You brought them up, and I'd like to talk about them a little more. Please can you afford me the same respect that I am trying to show to you?
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Posted 2/28/12

IkkiTheFang wrote:
You have no choice over physical being such as male or female but you do have a choice over your actions whether eat some sausage or eat a taco[…]


That's absolutely true; in most cases, excluding force, people have a choice over things like what food they eat or who they have sex with. But your sexuality isn't about who you sleep with; it's about who you are attracted to.

Let's say you really like strawberries. You have a choice whether or not you want to eat them, that's fine. But you still like the taste of them; you still want to eat if you have the choice.

You don't choose to like strawberries. You either like them, or you don't.

Sexuality is the same. You can choose (again, excluding force) whether to have sex with someone or not. It would be silly to argue otherwise. But you don't choose who you are attracted to in the first place. You either find them attractive, or you don't.

Eating strawberries is not the same as liking strawberries. Homosexual activities are not the same as being homosexual. You choose what you do; you don't choose what you are.
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Posted 2/28/12

jordangray wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:
You have no choice over physical being such as male or female but you do have a choice over your actions whether eat some sausage or eat a taco[…]


That's absolutely true; in most cases, excluding force, people have a choice over things like what food they eat or who they have sex with. But your sexuality isn't about who you sleep with; it's about who you are attracted to.

Let's say you really like strawberries. You have a choice whether or not you want to eat them, that's fine. But you still like the taste of them; you still want to eat if you have the choice.

You don't choose to like strawberries. You either like them, or you don't.

Sexuality is the same. You can choose (again, excluding force) whether to have sex with someone or not. It would be silly to argue otherwise. But you don't choose who you are attracted to in the first place. You either find them attractive, or you don't.

Eating strawberries is not the same as liking strawberries. Homosexual activities are not the same as being homosexual. You choose what you do; you don't choose what you are.



True as well good points but your not homosexual if you think of the same sex in a "liking" or sexual manner. its the actions you take that make you homosexual. Example I am a murderer. I havent killed anyone physically yet but i have thought about killing them. I am still no murderer until I kill someone. Agree?
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Posted 2/28/12

IkkiTheFang wrote:
True as well good points but your not homosexual if you think of the same sex in a "liking" or sexual manner. its the actions you take that make you homosexual. Example I am a murderer. I havent killed anyone physically yet but i have thought about killing them. I am still no murderer until I kill someone. Agree?


I understand your analogy, but "homosexual" as a word is different, because it has more than one meaning depending on the context:

  • In reference to behaviours, it refers to sexual interactions between two people of the same sex.

  • In reference to preferences, it refers to the condition of being sexually attracted mainly to people of the same sex, i.e. one's sexual orientation.


  • It's a little awkward and it makes discussion a lot tougher, because sometimes it's not clear which sense you're using the word in. I personally find it easiest to use "homosexual" when referring to the sexual orientation, and always qualify it when referring to specific activities.

    For an example of this distinction in practice, recall DADT to mind; soldiers could be removed from military service if they admitted to being homosexually-oriented, even if they had never engaged (or indicated any intention to engage in) homosexual acts.
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    Posted 2/28/12
    I believe that homosexuality is a mix of being both genetically inclined towards a certain orientation and previous life experience. There is no 'gay' gene, but there also is no 'addiction' gene. Certain genes make you predisposed to one or the other - but nothing is 100% positive "if you carry this gene, then you'll get addicted to drugs" or "if you carry this gene you will be homoseuxal."

    people need to leave religion out of the argument against homosexuality; in the United States (i'm not quite sure about others, but I assume it's somewhat similar) there is a separation of church and state. Because marriage is now performed outside of religious grounds (atheistic people getting married, etc.) it is no longer completely religious. In a religious institution different ceremonial words may be said, thus making that marriage 'under god' versus a marriage outside of the church. I believe that churches should have a right to refuse same-sex marriage if that is truly against their religion. But followers of any certain religion should read their religious texts to make sure they aren't completely contradicting themselves by performing one horrendous act and stating "well, of course that doesn't count anymore!" then turning back and stating things in the same chapter and defending it by saying "it's god's word and he said this and that, so obviously he is right!!!"

    Getting angry at someone else because you're straight and someone is having a gay marriage is like getting mad at someone who is eating a donut because you're on a diet.
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    Posted 2/28/12 , edited 2/28/12

    IkkiTheFang wrote:True as well good points but your not homosexual if you think of the same sex in a "liking" or sexual manner. its the actions you take that make you homosexual. Example I am a murderer. I havent killed anyone physically yet but i have thought about killing them. I am still no murderer until I kill someone. Agree?
    No no NOOO, a thousand times NO! Being gay is a state of being, actions and behavior are mostly irrelevant. The actions may always come into play because you base your actions off of who you are and feel is appropriate for something you can't change. Referring to someone as homosexual should point only to their orientation, not actions or behavior because, for example, if you are in a car with a gay person who is driving badly then other drivers might say "damn bad driver," but never "damn gay driver."

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    Posted 2/29/12

    jordangray wrote:


    IkkiTheFang wrote:
    True as well good points but your not homosexual if you think of the same sex in a "liking" or sexual manner. its the actions you take that make you homosexual. Example I am a murderer. I havent killed anyone physically yet but i have thought about killing them. I am still no murderer until I kill someone. Agree?


    I understand your analogy, but "homosexual" as a word is different, because it has more than one meaning depending on the context:

  • In reference to behaviours, it refers to sexual interactions between two people of the same sex.

  • In reference to preferences, it refers to the condition of being sexually attracted mainly to people of the same sex, i.e. one's sexual orientation.


  • It's a little awkward and it makes discussion a lot tougher, because sometimes it's not clear which sense you're using the word in. I personally find it easiest to use "homosexual" when referring to the sexual orientation, and always qualify it when referring to specific activities.

    For an example of this distinction in practice, recall DADT to mind; soldiers could be removed from military service if they admitted to being homosexually-oriented, even if they had never engaged (or indicated any intention to engage in) homosexual acts.


    Ya definitely makes it a little rougher to discuss when the other aspect of it gets brought in but I just think people are classified as homosexual by their actions with the same sex. It is a little shallow I guess you can say but as a general sensus of todays world I think it is fair to say ya? A different way to look at it is if we as a species are to survive then being heterosexual is a must. We are "made" to "like" the female counterpart. Being "made" or born homosexual makes no sense as a species or else we would die out.




    JustineKo2 wrote:


    IkkiTheFang wrote:True as well good points but your not homosexual if you think of the same sex in a "liking" or sexual manner. its the actions you take that make you homosexual. Example I am a murderer. I havent killed anyone physically yet but i have thought about killing them. I am still no murderer until I kill someone. Agree?
    No no NOOO, a thousand times NO! Being gay is a state of being, actions and behavior are mostly irrelevant. The actions may always come into play because you base your actions off of who you are and feel is appropriate for something you can't change. Referring to someone as homosexual should point only to their orientation, not actions or behavior because, for example, if you are in a car with a gay person who is driving badly then other drivers might say "damn bad driver," but never "damn gay driver."



    Are you saying that feelings classify you as being homosexual and not actions or that feelings classify you as homosexual with a little justification from the actions? But if you are talking about being gay as a state of being then yes I believe we all are happy!!!

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    Posted 2/29/12

    IkkiTheFang wrote:
    Ya definitely makes it a little rougher to discuss when the other aspect of it gets brought in but I just think people are classified as homosexual by their actions with the same sex. It is a little shallow I guess you can say but as a general sensus of todays world I think it is fair to say ya?


    I know what you're saying, but sexual orientation precedes sexual activity in most cases. Most gay people know they are gay before they actually do anything with the same sex, often years before. You used to get thrown out of the military for being gay—you didn't actually have to do anything. The Catholic church recently raised "homosexual tendencies" as a barrier to the priesthood, regardless of actual sexual conduct.

    Think about it this way: do you like the opposite sex? Do you have, or hope to find, a partner of the opposite sex whom you consider attractive? Well… gay people don't. I never "liked" the opposite sex in that way, ever. I did, however, like people of the same sex. I knew I was gay long before I even went out with anyone.


    A different way to look at it is if we as a species are to survive then being heterosexual is a must. We are "made" to "like" the female counterpart. Being "made" or born homosexual makes no sense as a species or else we would die out.


    It is perfectly acceptable to note that homosexuality has negative selective value, since homosexual individuals are less likely to produce offspring. But this is not the whole story. Genes which are expressed in one way in the modern era might have had an entirely different effect in our ancestors. The question you should be asking is not, "how can a genetic tendency towards homosexuality survive?" but "what was the function of the genes that now influence people to be homosexual in the Pleistocene?"

    There are also many ways in which traits with negative selective value can survive throughout generations; for example, if they are closely associated with other, positive survival characteristics, through kin selection or through such characteristics being systematically suppressed. In particular, the latter two maybe applicable to homosexuality.
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    Posted 2/29/12

    jordangray wrote:


    IkkiTheFang wrote:
    Ya definitely makes it a little rougher to discuss when the other aspect of it gets brought in but I just think people are classified as homosexual by their actions with the same sex. It is a little shallow I guess you can say but as a general sensus of todays world I think it is fair to say ya?


    I know what you're saying, but sexual orientation precedes sexual activity in most cases. Most gay people know they are gay before they actually do anything with the same sex, often years before. You used to get thrown out of the military for being gay—you didn't actually have to do anything. The Catholic church recently raised "homosexual tendencies" as a barrier to the priesthood, regardless of actual sexual conduct.

    Think about it this way: do you like the opposite sex? Do you have, or hope to find, a partner of the opposite sex whom you consider attractive? Well… gay people don't. I never "liked" the opposite sex in that way, ever. I did, however, like people of the same sex. I knew I was gay long before I even went out with anyone.


    A different way to look at it is if we as a species are to survive then being heterosexual is a must. We are "made" to "like" the female counterpart. Being "made" or born homosexual makes no sense as a species or else we would die out.


    It is perfectly acceptable to note that homosexuality has negative selective value, since homosexual individuals are less likely to produce offspring. But this is not the whole story. Genes which are expressed in one way in the modern era might have had an entirely different effect in our ancestors. The question you should be asking is not, "how can a genetic tendency towards homosexuality survive?" but "what was the function of the genes that now influence people to be homosexual in the Pleistocene?"

    There are also many ways in which traits with negative selective value can survive throughout generations; for example, if they are closely associated with other, positive survival characteristics, through kin selection or through such characteristics being systematically suppressed. In particular, the latter two maybe applicable to homosexuality.


    i like you!!! haha debates are great when done right and calm. But back to what is being said due to new policies that doesnt matter in the military anymore which kinda sucks.
    But I feel like with a view you are holding with the non action to be gay is cutting short homosexuals a chance to not be.......? (Its a long shot that i give them)
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    Posted 2/29/12 , edited 2/29/12

    IkkiTheFang wrote:i like you!!! haha debates are great when done right and calm. But back to what is being said due to new policies that doesnt matter in the military anymore which kinda sucks.
    But I feel like with a view you are holding with the non action to be gay is cutting short homosexuals a chance to not be.......? (Its a long shot that i give them)
    Gays generally don't ever have a desire to not be gay and I find you arrogant and pretty damn blockheaded to suggest that you have the right to dictate the path in life other people because you personally don't accept them for how they are. Gay people who do experience a desire to change is because of the pressure put on them, or being surrounded by outdated thinking (often religious) until they are convinced that homosexuality is a sickness and is changeable. In that case it's not their sexual orientation that's causing all this grief, it's the pressure from peers that will only go away if they acquiesce to it.

    So, it seems you are just not getting it, your heterosexuality is just a part of you, regardless of your actions, as it is a part of people who are homosexual (even if they have yet to think about what sex they are attracted to). A gay or straight person is that way before even knowing what sex is. This should answer your earlier questions you responded to me with.
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    Posted 3/1/12

    JustineKo2 wrote:


    IkkiTheFang wrote:i like you!!! haha debates are great when done right and calm. But back to what is being said due to new policies that doesnt matter in the military anymore which kinda sucks.
    But I feel like with a view you are holding with the non action to be gay is cutting short homosexuals a chance to not be.......? (Its a long shot that i give them)
    Gays generally don't ever have a desire to not be gay and I find you arrogant and pretty damn blockheaded to suggest that you have the right to dictate the path in life other people because you personally don't accept them for how they are. Gay people who do experience a desire to change is because of the pressure put on them, or being surrounded by outdated thinking (often religious) until they are convinced that homosexuality is a sickness and is changeable. In that case it's not their sexual orientation that's causing all this grief, it's the pressure from peers that will only go away if they acquiesce to it.

    So, it seems you are just not getting it, your heterosexuality is just a part of you, regardless of your actions, as it is a part of people who are homosexual (even if they have yet to think about what sex they are attracted to). A gay or straight person is that way before even knowing what sex is. This should answer your earlier questions you responded to me with.


    Im not dictating anything I am just stating my opinion is all. Girls and guys wanna be gay that is fine by me. And I have no double standard either for hetero or homosexual people. I dont wanna see a man and woman PDA (public displays of affection) just like I dont wanna see 2 guys or 2 girls doing it either. If you do have a couple websites that are unbiased that show me it is not a preference shoot me a link to it I am definitely interested but at this point I think the homosexual desire question is still opinion.

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    Posted 3/11/12
    In my opinion...
    Sexuality isn't a choice or your this or that. Simply who you're attracted to. Talking with my mom she says think about who you liked as a little kid... I think that's wrong because little kids are still learning and developing (their brains that is). A person isn't born 'gay' 'bi' 'straight' 'pansexual' etc. We come to like people. Maybe at a certain time you'll be attracted only to guys or girls whose to say it will be different later?
    It's also influenced by who we're around. I understand with gay marriage it's a personal choice which I strongly agree with but then government and all the 'religious' (not in offense I'm Catholic and believe everything...except that gay marriage is wrong and I believe we come back here kind of like earth is hell but that's a whole different discussion) people like to go about and talk about how it's wrong although this is a "free country." I like thinking about the pledge of allegiance which I hate because it feels like a brain washing but then again we don't pay attention to the words hardly...'one nation under God...with liberty and justice for all' under God...not everyone believes in him(troll away) and the fact people can't marry as gay is wrong because that's not justice justice is our free will and choice which God gave us in the first place. Back to the main idea of this: People don't "choose" but are attracted.
    That's just my opinion though...thought?
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    Posted 3/12/12
    It's really simple. Everyone has their own personal path and it's no one's business to judge or attempt to convince their belief system is right or better. We are all to busy to focus on what we want to do as individuals and learn in this life time to stick our nose into someone's business and tell them our point of view should be theirs. Anyone that disagrees with this should cease to exist.
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    Posted 3/12/12
    I don't have enough knowledge about either biology or psychology to be able to give a ''good'' answer to this question, however I'll just use self-experience.

    I never made the choice to be straight, yet I am attracted to females, given that I never told myself that from now on we're only gonna like girls, I will also look at homosexuals who have never made the same sort of decision to be gay.

    Now, all I know is that homosexuality also happens in nature, it's probably pretty safe to say that it is not a choice.

    Also, I do not see how religion has any room in this subject, this is either a biological or a pshychology subject.

    Posted 3/14/12
    It doesn't matter whether it's influenced genetically, naturally, or purely based on decision. It's a preference that -CAN- be prevented, and it's sad to see the increasing number of homosexuals to this day are ruining the built up set morals that God gave us. It's delusional to think that homosexual is -acceptable- and that only "assholes" are against homosexuality.

    I fear for the future, where homosexual couples are roaming around everywhere as common as a straight couple. Not only because it's disgusting and immoral, but also because they're all eating their "forbidden fruits" without foreseeing the regret coming ahead up them.
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