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Post Reply Crunchyroll to Now Stream in 1080p
Tsulaa 
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Posted 1/13/12
Excellent! I'm not site my Thrive can handle it, but I know my PC will. Thanks for looking out, CR!
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Posted 1/13/12
yaaaaaaaaa!
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Posted 1/13/12
Hey, this is pretty nice! I stream Crunchyroll through my PS3, but since there isn’t a Crunchyroll app for still, I’ll probably buy a display port for my macbook so i can display it in my TV. BTW, anyone know which kind should i buy? This will be my first time trying such thing.
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Posted 1/13/12
Hell yeah! Fate Zero and Another look SUPER great! And they are actually 1080p not just upscales!
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Posted 1/13/12
Badical!
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Posted 1/13/12 , edited 1/13/12
IT GUY here laughing at you idiots if you believe this is 1080p then you probably believe when you see a magician saws a person in half. I'm cancelling my CR membership due to this abrasive false advertisement tactic.
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Posted 1/13/12


lol'd
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Posted 1/13/12
Awesome news - now all I need is an XBox 360 app to go along with Youtube and the upcoming Crackle!
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Posted 1/13/12 , edited 1/13/12

tommyla wrote: and please add higher quality 720p streams!
something with 4-5 mbps and moar reference frames!

Good grief, no, don't do that, don't do anything to lock that many of users out of the 720p streams. Its one thing for a specialized option for people who've splashed out for the best possible bandwidth and the gear to stream to home theater size TV's, but don't discriminate that badly against subscribers without the Netflix HS style set-up.


kraemder wrote: I'm happy to see that Crunchyroll is on top of the technology but to be honest I don't see a difference on Naruto Shippoden. From the posts I'm seeing the original isn't even 720p (at least right now) so that's probably why?

You'd not look at Naruto to see a difference, through, now would you? The ones least likely to show a substantial difference are the long running weekly series.

The posts about "the original" normally refer to the broadcast resolutiona, based on information passed around by bootleggers. IOW, that's a series that is broadcast at 480p so RAWs ripped from digital TV broadcasts are 480p.

Crunchyroll is working from materials sent to them from Japan, which is not limited to the broadcast resolution. However, even if the backgrounds for Naruto are now scanned in 1920x1080, Naruto is not a series known for its detailed background, so the difference would not likely be that dramatic. Nobody would be well advised to pay for higher bandwidth cable to they can see Naruto in 1080p!


Are there any shows that aren't upscales and you can actually see a difference?

Upscaled how? Upscaled by Crunchyroll? Upscaled by the animation producer in Japan? Upscaled animation on 1920x1080 backgrounds?

We know that the 1080p streams are prepared by Crunchyroll from high resolution sources: if they only have 480p sources, they don't even stream 720p.

However, what processing has been done in Japan before the material is sent to Crunchyroll, that it likely to vary from series to series, based on how important BD quality is expected to be in terms of sales potential in Japan.
Engineer
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Posted 1/13/12

DUST2332 wrote:

IT GUY here laughing at you idiots if you believe this is 1080p then you probably believe when you see a magician saws a person in half. I'm cancelling my CR membership due to this abrasive false advertisement tactic.


We receive 1080p source videos from the Publishers for most simulcasts so we are now providing 1080p for streaming. As such, we are not upscaling the content. Any upscaling that is done would be by the Publishers.

For some shows, the frames may be drawn and scanned in 540p but it's common for the backgrounds and all computer related post-processing work to be produced in HD (not sure what resolution). So these do benefit to some extent from 1080p but there are true HD anime shows out there which are the ones that will benefit the much more from 1080p streams. Then there is our live action content like Deka Kurokawa Suzuki which benefit the most from our 1080p streams.

If the difference between our 720p and 1080p encodes are too miniscule for you, then you are welcome to continue watching our 720p streams. However, there are people that have wanted this and we are giving it to them. So there is no value lost by providing a 1080p option.
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Posted 1/13/12

agila61 wrote:

For example, I can encode standard old tv signals at 12mbit/sec. It would look the same as at 6mbit/sec, because the source quality is from 480i broadcast.

In other words, if a signal is uncompressed, just increasing bitrate does not add anything. That is something important to keep in mind with an uncompressed signal.


I never said anything really about compressed or uncompressed but uncompressed 480i is like 30-50mbit uncompressed (I forget, been so long). Bit rate is bit rate. It's separate from compression, which is why I specifically said encoded. In the example I was giving, both were done using mpeg2 on a hardware encoder. There was no difference. Varying compression levels certainly reduce the bitrate increase from resolution, but a resolution increase is going to bump that bit rate up quite a bit. You can double bit rate by doubling things like cbr too on the same source. My point is that it can be done and bit rate isn't a great measure when there's more of a doubling simply from the resolution change.



Similarly, if I take a DVD, and upscale it to 1080p, it's going to increase the bitrate substantially, but the source content is still DVD quality. 1080p is 2.25 that of 720p just due to the resolution increase alone anyways: (1920x1080)/(1280x720)

... but, of course, the h.264 encoding of fields of the same color does not increase by 2.25 due to the resolution increase. Areas of fine detail could easily have a bitrate demand scaling up with resolution, but as we know areas of fine detail in anime tend to be more static backgrounds.


Very true, but the edge smoothing and sharpening can add a good bit to reencode the upconversion. I expect modern encoders to be far better than the older stuff. I'm not saying it is solely due to resolution, but I am pointing out the large increase in data merely from the resolution change. I am NOT saying they are doing this, but they could be just taking 720p and upscaling it to 1080p and shoving it at an inefficient compression and attain a doubling of the bit rate--the point I'm making is bit rate isn't a good measure unless we know what's going on, and from what I've read, we don't.


You certainly can, but of course we are not discussing catalog titles from 2001, we are discussing simulcasts and other material that is currently broadcast in Japan in 1080i.


You know what we are discussing given you've replied to an earlier post. The question is not the broadcast quality. The question is the source quality, and I don't mean what is simply supplied to CR, I'm saying what are the animators producing in/scanning in. It doesn't matter what they broadcast it in as I've tried to point out. It does't matter if the material is 2001 or 2012. 2001 they could rescan cells if it's hand drawn and arrive at something better. In 2012, they could be pushing these out at 720p and upconverting to 1080i, handing it off to CR as 1080p from the 1080i source.


Yes, but in those cases, the materials would have been delivered to Crunchyroll as 480p, and Crunchyroll has already established that they do not stream those materials in 720p. There's no reason to expect they would upscale material to 1080p that they do not presently upscale to 720p, and indeed they state the opposite.


First, I'm saying it can be done, not that CR is doing it. Second, they have established they took 540p and up'd it appropriately to 720p. Even to you, you're discussing 1080i to 1080p. I'm saying the quality of the source may not be there and doesn't seem to be there from the screenshots people are showing. That, however, is negated by at least 2 posts so far saying they are seeing a difference on certain shows.


Its important to remember that the "customer service claims" that you are talking about are from a company that originally consisted of a group of software engineers that presently consists of around two dozen people, so its not like a "customer service rep" is staring at boilerplate text on a screen in a big back office somewhere: that will be coming from very close to the boiler room where they perform the encoding of the materials delivered from Japan.


If "a company" is CR, then I could easily list issues those software engineers and the company blew on, ranging from current player issues, subtitles (including a blown translation of english), unencrypted logins, etc., with many of these issues not been fixed for years. Those are separate matters, but if you are going to bring up reputation to point to quality, this isn't a point you want to be making. Don't take it as criticism of CR as a whole, just that I haven't been impressed with their technical side of things at times.

Now, if that "a company" is someone else, then I'd like to know the name so I know what we're talking about here.

Put another way, if your statement be true, then they shouldn't be saying the boilerplate response of bit rate and source material but stating the specific numbers. They haven't yet. I hope they do.

Also, since your post seems to be leaning towards addressing someone complaining there is no difference or CR is doing wrong, I'm not one of those; I tend to believe the claims CR put forward, just there is a rather big lack of details as to what is going on and some of the improvements seem inconsequential.


So when one of the Crunchyroll "customer service" people says that there are series with backgrounds being done in 1080 resolution, that seems to me to count as industry insider info.


It doesn't to me if that's all that was said. Specifically, if you are going to introduce Bleach as not state of the art, that may well be true, but it's one of the shows with 1080p streaming per the announcement.

You'll have to provide the quote and link because I haven't seen more details regarding the claim on the background scans. I only saw a few of Bjaker's posts and they only refer to what the publisher supplies, with no information on the resolution scans of the backgrounds mentioned, and no information on what the publishers are actually supplying, so if you have that, please refer me to it so I can read what I overlooked. The screenshots so far are rather disappointing, but again, there are a couple people posting claiming there is a difference..


And the echo chamber is prone to misinterpretation.


That argument applies right back to those assuming that something offered at 1080p is actually from a really better source. Similar in light to how some BluRays have been shown to be upscales. Besides, I've stated from the start of this, I wanted more technical details, not speculation, which we've fallen into; I still think the supporting info thus far isn't clear, you disagree. I would hope questioning what is going on and asking for more details should not be seen as raw doubt or disbelief or complaining. There WILL be people who see the 1080p service who will be upgrading lines and equipment on the order of hundreds of dollars to get the advertised quality, and others who might if they had more details. Would suck if the former did those upgrades largely in vain for the time being.

Something I wrote then decided not to post in my prior response but should have, regardless of our stance on the matter, at least the 1080p is there for when things do improve (even) if they might not quite be there now.
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Posted 1/13/12
Need to buy new hardware to enjoy this quality. Especially when I even can't be enjoying 720 :D
But that is nice to hear that now crunchyroll is improving a lot and lets enjoy people watching in this quality. I hope really soon that I will be able to see the difference between now what I'm watching and what I will.
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BasouKazuma wrote:

If the difference between our 720p and 1080p encodes are too miniscule for you, then you are welcome to continue watching our 720p streams. However, there are people that have wanted this and we are giving it to them. So there is no value lost by providing a 1080p option.

By simply offering these people a resolution increase, you've pleased them, however minute those differences may be. But as a paid subscriber, I feel it is my duty to say "This isn't good enough." There's still plenty of potential behind this idea, but you need to continue pressing publishers to supply quality releases. You need to continue pressing your team to improve the player and encoding quality.

Regardless of whose fault it is, there's no reason a 1080p tag should be anywhere near this release:

I realize this is a major potential selling point for Crunchyroll, but I think a little honesty would go a long way. It comes off as quite the gimmick when viewing videos like above.
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BasouKazuma wrote:

We receive 1080p source videos from the Publishers for most simulcasts so we are now providing 1080p for streaming. As such, we are not upscaling the content. Any upscaling that is done would be by the Publishers.

For some shows, the frames may be drawn and scanned in 540p but it's common for the backgrounds and all computer related post-processing work to be produced in HD (not sure what resolution). So these do benefit to some extent from 1080p but there are true HD anime shows out there which are the ones that will benefit the much more from 1080p streams.


Wow. That's....I guess that's the only way to handle it but that clarifies "appropriate source"--it seems if you have it from the publisher, it'll be offered, regardless of underlying merit The entire spectrum of possibilities exists then. That would explain the discrepancy so far where some of those comparison screenshots are (nearly) identical, while some people have stated they see a difference with 1080p streams. You could very well have a 1080p stream based on a lower quality produced show upscaled, to something that shines in 1080p.
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Posted 1/13/12 , edited 1/13/12

aPromethean wrote: ... I am NOT saying they are doing this, but they could be just taking 720p and upscaling it to 1080p and shoving it at an inefficient compression and attain a doubling of the bit rate--the point I'm making is bit rate isn't a good measure unless we know what's going on, and from what I've read, we don't.

Quarkboy at mania.com says that to his knowledge the only series delivered on digibeta is "Vanguard", the rest is delivered on HDCAM and HDCAM-SR, which is 1080i or 1080p.

So we know that at least most of the simulcast source material is 1080 resolution. The question is whether there is any above-720p-resolution material in the mix before its been recorded to the HDCAM.


You know what we are discussing given you've replied to an earlier post. The question is not the broadcast quality. The question is the source quality, and I don't mean what is simply supplied to CR, I'm saying what are the animators producing in/scanning in.

Yes, but as I noted, widely held beliefs about source qualities are confused in internet discussion forums with what RAW sources are available to the bootleggers. One has to be very careful about whether the source for a piece of information can be tracked down, or its just something that "everyone knows".

However, as noted in the premier members forum,

Another point, while the frames for Bleach are now drawn in 540p, it's common for the backgrounds and all computer related post-processing work to be produced in HD (not sure what resolution). So more recent episodes do benefit from 1080p while older ones may not. ...
There are true HD anime shows out there which are the ones that will benefit the most from 1080p streams.


So, your mileage will vary based on how much HD work is done and, as is often the case, Crunchyroll's approach is to make it available and let the members decide whether its a benefit to them.

But people looking to Bleach and Naruto to get their idea about how dramatic the improvement is on their system are looking in the wrong direction.


It does't matter if the material is 2001 or 2012. 2001 they could rescan cells if it's hand drawn and arrive at something better.

What matters for the financial viability is cost of computer processing power and computer storage and market penetration of HD television equipment in Japan. There was no technical limit to working in pure 1080p in 2007 ~ indeed, anime for theatrical as opposed to television release would have been ~ but there was no market reward from doing so: the cost of doing it would have been substantially higher, and in a market with fewer HD televisions and commercial success dependent on DVD rather than Blu-Ray sales, there would be not enough market benefit to justify the cost.

Catalog title streaming doesn't generate enough revenue to rescan cells ~ even if the cells have been retained rather than disposed of. That requires a project of remastering for Blu-Ray release.
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