Opinions on Defensive Act
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Posted 3/2/12
As we all know hopefully that is, last year DEC. 31 a new bill was passed and a section in that included counter terrorism. Those "whom" (government) they claim may be held indefinitely could include U.S. citizens arrested on American soil, including arrests by members of the Armed Forces.

Heres a little more - ......the power to detain, via the Armed Forces, any person "who was part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners," and anyone who commits a "belligerent act" against the U.S. or its coalition allies in aid of such enemy forces, under the law of war, "without trial, until the end of the hostilities.

Now I thought America was safer than what this act insists.

Infringement on our rights I believe so yet is it worth the so called extra protection? If so will the power of this act be used frequently enough to justify our loss of rights?

This isnt the first time I have heard of this but I just wanna hear some of opinions of others
Posted 3/2/12
I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.
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Posted 3/2/12

DomFortress wrote:

I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.



Love TED great site and lectures just wanna say. And yes I don't believe we are going in the right direction at all I believe the patriot act was infringing enough and now this? Cell phones with certain phrases or words with certain phrases over phones are tied into lines that keep and eye (technically/mechanically speaking) out for phrases that will put you on a list to be "looked" at. There is no democracy anymore slowly creeping into socialism and then communism. Honestly socialism would be that bad I don't think. But anyway back to the post - In a way I see that when Obama got rid of Guantanamo Bay he moved it to the US which is now considered a battleground...physically and for awhile now cyberlly
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Posted 3/3/12
It and SOPA/PIPA and similar acts in my own country are laying the planks that can form infrastructure of a totalitarian state. and if you think 'It can't happen here' Then you didn't learn the lesson that 1930's Germany should have taught us.
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Posted 3/3/12 , edited 3/3/12
My lack of knowledge on this subject is unfortunatly lacking, nevertheless (perhaps undeserving) I do have an opinion on the matter.

Holding people in custody without trial is in my eyes a horrible thing to do, in the extremes circumstances one could simply be kidnapped from the street without ever having the chance to fight for his or her freedom.
However I do feel that the word ''belligerent'' puts me slightly at ease, it implies the usage of physical violence against the entirety of the United States or it's allies.

Nevertheless this act shows the influence fear has and the exploitational potential fear has.

I hope the majority of the people realize that their right for a trial has been effectivly taken away with this act, whilst an act of violence against the US or it's allies is simply done during a protest that goes out of control a little.

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Posted 3/3/12
Not even in extreme circumstances anymore, this happen to anyone now. With a so called "hunch" you can be detained, "interrogated" and imprisoned with a hunch. Sentenced with no trial though? The sad thing is.....is that people dont know. The mass majority doesn't read the news or keep up on the changes to our country and i think it is foolish not to. The people used to have the power but now, the people only get the power once every 4 years to elect another president.
The government is a great thing I believe, I come from a military background and family, but I'm also not keen to the fact that multiple rights of mine have been stripped away for extra measures to be took for safety reasons when what were doing now has generally for the most part worked ok. But the thing that strikes me as weird or maybe i just need to do more research on it is the frequency in which they exercise this power effectively. Or this could just be an excuse to give the government more power to themselves and mask it with a dangerous and terrifying fact.....Not stating a conspiracy but I don't want to rule out anything it is a possibility
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Posted 3/3/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

It and SOPA/PIPA and similar acts in my own country are laying the planks that can form infrastructure of a totalitarian state. and if you think 'It can't happen here' Then you didn't learn the lesson that 1930's Germany should have taught us.


exactly I agree. Slowly take the freedom little by little and before most will know they have none and their getting told what to do under complete control of a dominant power
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Posted 3/3/12
I also think that this act makes it possible for you to be detained on a hunch, nevertheless I do not think there is a plot to slowly take away the freedoms of the western world.
I do believe that the people creating and eforcing this really see the potential of danger and believe that by reacting with this, make the US safer.

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Posted 3/3/12

amersfoort wrote:

I also think that this act makes it possible for you to be detained on a hunch, nevertheless I do not think there is a plot to slowly take away the freedoms of the western world.
I do believe that the people creating and eforcing this really see the potential of danger and believe that by reacting with this, make the US safer.



I'll debate intent another time. The act in and of it self allows agents of the state to disappear people without recourse or oversight. that's dangerous in it's own right. As part of a series of laws that build larger jails, empower more agents of the state, permit greater state intrusion into the private lives of its citizens... weather they MEAN to or not. (a point I'm willing to debate) The infrastructure of Autocracy is being laid. If you don't act now before it's entrenched you won't have the tools to fight a dictator if and when he shows on the scene.

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Posted 3/3/12
And the price of freedom is an eternal lack of absolute safety. Sorry but that's the ugly reality, you can be safe or free but rarely both.
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Posted 3/3/12

IkkiTheFang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.



Love TED great site and lectures just wanna say. And yes I don't believe we are going in the right direction at all I believe the patriot act was infringing enough and now this? Cell phones with certain phrases or words with certain phrases over phones are tied into lines that keep and eye (technically/mechanically speaking) out for phrases that will put you on a list to be "looked" at. There is no democracy anymore slowly creeping into socialism and then communism. Honestly socialism would be that bad I don't think. But anyway back to the post - In a way I see that when Obama got rid of Guantanamo Bay he moved it to the US which is now considered a battleground...physically and for awhile now cyberlly


It's funny how you equate totalitarianism with communism and even socialism. whereas I'm inclined to see it as fascism. Neither WWII germany or russia were pleasant places. and arguably they were more alike than their stance on the extreme right and left of politics would lead you to believe.


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Posted 3/3/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


amersfoort wrote:

I also think that this act makes it possible for you to be detained on a hunch, nevertheless I do not think there is a plot to slowly take away the freedoms of the western world.
I do believe that the people creating and eforcing this really see the potential of danger and believe that by reacting with this, make the US safer.



I'll debate intent another time. The act in and of it self allows agents of the state to disappear people without recourse or oversight. that's dangerous in it's own right. As part of a series of laws that build larger jails, empower more agents of the state, permit greater state intrusion into the private lives of its citizens... weather they MEAN to or not. (a point I'm willing to debate) The infrastructure of Autocracy is being laid. If you don't act now before it's entrenched you won't have the tools to fight a dictator if and when he shows on the scene.



If I understand correctly, the point you are making is as followed, these new acts (Sopa, the one we're talking about, and numerous others) are (perhaps unconcious) the preparation for an autocracy.

With this I do agree, with rights been taken, and especially the danger of this act that allow for people to be contained for an attack on the US or it's allies, the power of the goverment is enlarged.
In this act the danger lies in the word belligerent, the waging war on something can be done both with physical violence or through an vocal attack, in the latter case any opposition can be taken in custody without a chance of ever returning.

But I disagree with the statement that one will be ''unable'' to fight a dictator when he or she shows on the scene. You can always fight a dictator, through words or violence, the question rather is: will you be succesfull?

But yes, the fundaments are slowly being forged for an autocracy to rule, but it will take a lot more than this to install it.
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Posted 3/3/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.



Love TED great site and lectures just wanna say. And yes I don't believe we are going in the right direction at all I believe the patriot act was infringing enough and now this? Cell phones with certain phrases or words with certain phrases over phones are tied into lines that keep and eye (technically/mechanically speaking) out for phrases that will put you on a list to be "looked" at. There is no democracy anymore slowly creeping into socialism and then communism. Honestly socialism would be that bad I don't think. But anyway back to the post - In a way I see that when Obama got rid of Guantanamo Bay he moved it to the US which is now considered a battleground...physically and for awhile now cyberlly


It's funny how you equate totalitarianism with communism and even socialism. whereas I'm inclined to see it as fascism. Neither WWII germany or russia were pleasant places. and arguably they were more alike than their stance on the extreme right and left of politics would lead you to believe.




Socialism becomes communism but with fascism youll need to unify a nation and with our boarders being open to everyone you think people would just drop what they are and adopt the American way? Socialism and Fascism are basically the same forms of totalitarianism and ya they may look good on paper but people arent so keen as to what really needs to happen to make it work
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Posted 3/3/12

IkkiTheFang wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.



Love TED great site and lectures just wanna say. And yes I don't believe we are going in the right direction at all I believe the patriot act was infringing enough and now this? Cell phones with certain phrases or words with certain phrases over phones are tied into lines that keep and eye (technically/mechanically speaking) out for phrases that will put you on a list to be "looked" at. There is no democracy anymore slowly creeping into socialism and then communism. Honestly socialism would be that bad I don't think. But anyway back to the post - In a way I see that when Obama got rid of Guantanamo Bay he moved it to the US which is now considered a battleground...physically and for awhile now cyberlly


It's funny how you equate totalitarianism with communism and even socialism. whereas I'm inclined to see it as fascism. Neither WWII germany or russia were pleasant places. and arguably they were more alike than their stance on the extreme right and left of politics would lead you to believe.




Socialism becomes communism but with fascism youll need to unify a nation and with our boarders being open to everyone you think people would just drop what they are and adopt the American way? Socialism and Fascism are basically the same forms of totalitarianism and ya they may look good on paper but people arent so keen as to what really needs to happen to make it work


not sure I agree that either look good at all. Anyhow all I was saying is that I don't think the threat to your nation comes from the left.

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Posted 3/3/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


IkkiTheFang wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I'll give you four critical analysis from the viewpoints on security, military technology, ethics behind nonlethal weaponry, and finally on the social psychology of evil. And then you can tell me in your own words how this "defence act" seem as an harmless(as in nonlethal) legal technology(as in purely man-made), can potentially be a social instrument of evil to be wielded by an institution without moral oversight.

Bruce Schneier: The security mirage
The feeling of security and the reality of security don't always match, says computer-security expert Bruce Schneier. At TEDxPSU, he explains why we spend billions addressing news story risks, like the "security theater" now playing at your local airport, while neglecting more probable risks -- and how we can break this pattern.

Malcolm Gladwell: The strange tale of the Norden bombsight
Master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell tells the tale of the Norden bombsight, a groundbreaking piece of World War II technology with a deeply unexpected result.

TEDxCanberra - Stephen Coleman - The ethics of non-lethal weapons
In exam­in­ing the ethics of force mul­ti­plier tech­nol­ogy, Stephen Cole­man is bet­ter­ing our under­stand­ing of the con­duct of con­flict and what non-lethal weaponry can mean.

Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
Philip Zimbardo knows how easy it is for nice people to turn bad. In this talk, he shares insights and graphic unseen photos from the Abu Ghraib trials. Then he talks about the flip side: how easy it is to be a hero, and how we can rise to the challenge.
From a policed state to a military state, this is the transition of your country is heading.



Love TED great site and lectures just wanna say. And yes I don't believe we are going in the right direction at all I believe the patriot act was infringing enough and now this? Cell phones with certain phrases or words with certain phrases over phones are tied into lines that keep and eye (technically/mechanically speaking) out for phrases that will put you on a list to be "looked" at. There is no democracy anymore slowly creeping into socialism and then communism. Honestly socialism would be that bad I don't think. But anyway back to the post - In a way I see that when Obama got rid of Guantanamo Bay he moved it to the US which is now considered a battleground...physically and for awhile now cyberlly


It's funny how you equate totalitarianism with communism and even socialism. whereas I'm inclined to see it as fascism. Neither WWII germany or russia were pleasant places. and arguably they were more alike than their stance on the extreme right and left of politics would lead you to believe.




Socialism becomes communism but with fascism youll need to unify a nation and with our boarders being open to everyone you think people would just drop what they are and adopt the American way? Socialism and Fascism are basically the same forms of totalitarianism and ya they may look good on paper but people arent so keen as to what really needs to happen to make it work


not sure I agree that either look good at all. Anyhow all I was saying is that I don't think the threat to your nation comes from the left.



o for sure i dont want either one! only time will tell!

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