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Is circumcision child abuse?
Selden 
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Posted 6/7/12

a woman's vulva is also prone to bacteria and other infections good hygiene without cutting helps prevent infections most of the world's males are not circumcised and are not having problems with bacteria


Dude, we addressed this when we talked about it. Circumcision isn't a viable means of preventing infections to a female. You should stop comparing the two. They are constructed very differently.


so men not using condoms is an excuse to cut males? men can also undergo vasectomies the woman don't have to tie her tubes or undergo hysterectomies.


Way to ignore that females face a myriad of social and relational pressures that are much more invasive, harmful, and destructive than circumcision. Vasectomies usually repair themselves and the procedure has to be repeated very often, and it doesn't matter if that's an option for men, women still face more invasive, harmful, and destructive forms of body and chemical alteration. They're not just arguing the pregnancy aspect of this, which a vasectomy *may* solve, they're arguing the higher likelihood of them contracting an STD or UTI from intercourse with a man who is not circumcised, hence the comment on the unlikely event that a significant other would wear a condom every time the couple had intercourse.



sex needs lubrication NOT friction. vaginal secretions naturally provide lubrication.


I read up on this for a while. Many experiments are inconclusive and the few that push for the whole "uncircumcised males perform better" thing are on shaky ground with how they conduct their research (including the one you posted).

Posted 6/20/12
Don't forget about Phimosis...
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Posted 6/20/12
Wait there are people who actually believe that circumcision serves as a preventive measure against STD, in other words, decreases the chances of getting one? =D And all that in the internet age? tsk tsk
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Posted 6/21/12

nanuq wrote:

Wait there are people who actually believe that circumcision serves as a preventive measure against STD, in other words, decreases the chances of getting one? =D And all that in the internet age? tsk tsk


Actually, it has been shown conclusively to prevent HIV- the UN actually recommends it as a measure to slow the spread of HIV in Africa, and several studies show, prehaps not as conclusively, that it does prevent the spread certain STDs.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=circumcision-penis-microbiome-hiv-infection

All this in the internet age.
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The Africa Report
June 21, 2012
Storm brews over forced circumcision in Uganda

By Godfrey Olukya

The Ugandan town of Mbale was brought to a standstill on Tuesday afternoon, as a naked man ran through the streets, with more than 50 men in pursuit. He was fleeing a forced circumcision.

Only identified as Deo, the man sought sanctuary from the Resident District Administrator, as the men and a local scalpel-wielding surgeon gave chase.

Deo survived the forced circumcision after guards at the administrator's office were able to disperse his assailants, but that was not before other men had fallen victim to the enforced surgical operation.

More than 40 men of various ages have been subjected to the cut in the last two days, as the town goes through a general circumcision programme, but this has faced widespread protests.

Mbale is mainly inhabited by the Bamasaba tribe, which prescribes circumcision to all males from the age of 15, and those who do not undergo the cut are forcefully circumcised.

However, it has emerged that the 40 men who were forcefully circumcised are not of the Bamasaba tribe, but rather were forced to undergo the operation, as they either had Bamasaba wives or girlfriends.

"Since they sleep with our sisters and daughters, we felt they had to be circumcised like the rest of us," Gerald Wambedde, an advocate of forced circumcisions, said.

The leader of the exercise, Badru Wasike said the circumcision exercise was both a cultural and health exercise.

"We are helping those who feared getting circumcised through cultural processes. We are aware that circumcised men do not easily get infected with HIV/Aids. Since they love our relatives we want them to be safe," he explained.

But this has raised a wave of protests in the town, 400 kilometres east of the capital, Kampala with some saying the forced circumcisions were inhuman.

"Men were told to unzip on the streets to ascertain whether they had been circumcised. That is not only unfair but also inhuman," a human rights activist, Mbale,Keneth Mabonga, said.

The RDC has responded by banning forced circumcision and has instructed local police to arrest anyone suspected of enforcing the said cultural rite.

Culturally, the Bamasaba hold circumcision ceremonies every two years.

Those to be circumcised, as a rite of passage, undergo rituals including dancing half naked, while their bodies are smeared with ash.






New Vision (Uganda)
June 20, 2012
Forceful circumcision in Mbale: Police fire teargas

By Paul Watala

Police in Mbale have fired teargas and deployed heavily to disperse hooligans forcefully circumcising people on the streets including non-Bamasaba.

The District Police Commander, Michael Angucia Wednesday vowed to crack down the hooligans who are causing insecurity in the town.

“I am not trying to fight the culture of the Bamasaba but the way the practice is handled may cause tribal conflicts. Several people have fled the town, property robbed and business is being paralyzed,” Angucia said.

“We have deployed on the streets to arrest the hooligans,” Angucia added.

He said that several groups of such people have taken advantage of the cultural festival of the Bamasaba to force whoever they suspect to have not been circumcised.

Angucia said that due to public outcry from the people and local leaders, police had no alternative but to provide security on the streets to restore serenity in town, adding that some people have fled town and abandoned business in Mbale main garage.

It is estimated that a total number of about 220 people have been circumcised from the time the exercise began date.

Dr. Jaffer Balyejjusa a senior Consultant surgeon Mbale regional Referral Hospital condemned the act of forceful circumcision.

He said that so far they have received two cases where the victims had been circumcised badly putting lives in danger.

Bamasaba cultural board chairperson, Augustine Wandende condemned the act of forcing people who are not Bamasaba into circumcision without their consent and appealed to the authorities to take action against the culprits.

[Would this have happened if Drs Gray, Quinn, Wawer etc. ha not assured Ugandans that circumcision is wonderful?]





Haaretz (subscription required)
June 14, 2012
Even in Israel, more and more parents choose not to circumcise their sons

What will the kids in school say - not to mention army buddies? What is healthier? Should such men be called Jews?

By Netta Ahituv

... of 1,418 parents of boys, 4.8 percent did not have them circumcised.

"...Suddenly I realized that people do more research about strollers than they do about the issue of slicing off part of their son’s body."

Writer Meir Shalev noted ... “It is not only circumcision itself that should make us wonder, but also the enthusiasm we display in preserving the custom. Something very strange is going on here. "

“Our children are pleased that they were not circumcised. They never got angry at us, ...."

Tamir, for her part, wonders what will happen if an anti-AIDS vaccine is developed in 10 years’ time. “How will I feel about having cut my son’s sexual organ in order to reduce the likelihood that he will contract AIDS when there is already good nonsurgical protection available (the condom) and in the end a vaccine will also be developed?

Yuri, 26 (not his real name), ... was circumcised when he was 16. ...“the feeling in the sexual contact was affected, it was wrecked. ... I had made a mistake. I was 16 and I was an idiot.”

... Many fathers who have their sons circumcised express the desire that they will not look different, adding that they are happy to have been circumcised and accordingly are happy to pass on the custom to their children. To this Galit responds, “My children never asked me why they are different from their father. Since when do children have to be exactly like their parents?”








Ob.Gyn.News
June 14, 2012
Mandatory Circumcision Not Cost Effective for HIV Prevention

By Sherry Boschert, Ob.Gyn. News Digital Network

SAN DIEGO – Mandating circumcision in the United States would prevent 24 more cases of HIV than does the traditional optional approach to circumcision, but would increase costs by approximately $389 million, making it far less cost effective, an analysis of published data suggests.

The investigators assumed that the overall incidence of HIV in the United States is 27 cases/100,000 people and the lifetime cost of care for someone with HIV is $119,000, based on published data from government statistics and peer-reviewed studies. Using the $392 cost of a circumcision at their institution, they developed computer-generated estimates of the cost-effectiveness of mandatory or traditional circumcision strategies for various populations, said Dr. Sarah E. Drennan, a third-year resident in ob.gyn. at Ochsner Medical Center, New Orleans. [They also assumed that the reduction of heterosexually-transmitted HIV apparently found in three studies in Africa was applicable to the USA.]

For the overall U.S. population, mandatory circumcision would prevent 494 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $790 million. Traditional circumcision – in which the parents choose whether or not to circumcise a newborn – would prevent 470 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $401 million, she reported at the annual meeting of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.

[Only a handful of fanatics have ever suggested mandatory circumcision, and it is irrelevant to the study how 100% circumcision is achieved. It would be sufficient for their purposes to refer to "universal" circumcision. It would be illuminating for them to have considered no circumcision, since the rate of "traditional" circumcision is falling.]

The idea of mandatory circumcision policies in the United States has come up because of randomized, controlled trials in Africa showing that male circumcision reduces the risk of female-to-male transmission of HIV by 50%-60%, Dr. Drennan said.

She and coinvestigator Dr. Rajiv Gala, also of the Ochsner Medical Center, conducted the current analysis to account for key differences between the two geographical regions. HIV is spread mainly through heterosexual contact in Africa and by intravenous drug use or men having sex with men in the United States. The prevalence of HIV is 5% in sub-Saharan Africa and 0.6% in North America

The study also compared the two strategies in the United States among African American and Hispanic populations, who have lower rates of circumcision and a higher prevalence of HIV, compared with the population as a whole. Traditional circumcision was the more cost-effective strategy in those subgroups too, although not as strongly as in the population as a whole, she said.

For African Americans, mandatory circumcision would prevent 1,878 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $816 million. Traditional circumcision would prevent 1,807 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $613 million.

For Hispanics, mandatory circumcision would prevent 472 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $792 million. Traditional circumcision would prevent 435 cases of HIV at a cost of approximately $342 million.

"Given the U.S. incidence of HIV, recommendations for mandatory circumcision are not supported" and require more U.S. studies on the role of circumcision in HIV prevention, Dr. Drennan said.

Circumcision would have to cost a mere $2.90 for the two strategies to be equally cost effective in tmillion/case for the two circumcision strategies to be equally cost effective in the general population.

The topic has generated controversy in recent years as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was said to be considering recommendations promoting routine circumcision for HIV prevention. The CDC still is considering what might be recommended, but any recommendations will be voluntary in nature, according to the CDC website.

The analysis was limited by a lack of data from randomized clinical trials and by the subjective nature of measuring behavioral risk, she said. The study also did not consider adverse events associated with circumcision or other health benefits other than prevention of HIV.







The Freethinker (UK)
June 13, 2012
Circumcision turned into porn by Catholic paedophile

By Barry Duke

JUST under a month ago I drew readers’ attention to a conference taking place in the UK next month to discuss the issue of unnecessary circumcision. It is to be held on Thursday, July 26 at Keele University, Staffordshire, and will explore how boys might be protected from being unnecessarily damaged by the practice.

Ahead of the conference, Glen Poole, Strategic Director of The Men’s Network, this week launched a petition, calling on the UK Government to end unnecessary circumcision in Britain, and I would urge you to sign it.

In my original blog, based on a report that pressure was being put on the Australian Government to end the ban on elective male circumcision in public hospitals, and to substantially increase the Medicare benefit for the procedure, I pointed out that this pressure had come mainly from The Circumcision Foundation of Australia.

The Foundation, I noted, was led by Sydney University biologist, Professor Brian Morris, who thinks circumcision should be mandatory. I have since learned that Morris is a member of a sinister outfit called the Gilgal Society, a UK-based not-for-profit organisation that exists to:

Provide accurate, medically approved, information about male circumcision and its benefits in terms of health, sexual satisfaction and self-image.

Gilgal is Hebrew for “hill of foreskins”, and the society, according Circleaks (motto: A place to learn about those who fund, promote, and profit from circumcision) is headed by a devout Roman Catholic called Vernon Quaintance, 68, who was employed as a sacristan and server for something called the Order of Malta’s Mass.

According to this Circleaks page:

Groups such as the Gilgal Society, the Acorn Society, and the Cutting Club openly admit to a morbid fascination with circumcision to the point of sado-masochistic fetish. These groups advertise that doctors are among their members. There are those on the Internet who discuss the erotic stimulation they experience by watching other males being circumcised, swap fiction and about it, and trade in videotapes of actual circumcisions.

The Gilgal Society has even published a book containing stories eroticising the circumcision of minors. Here’s an extract:

… the boys were given plenty of wine to relax them. … the discussion was about the sex lives of the boys and their school friends. The doctor asked how often the boys wanked. … The doctor showed the boys his microscope and asked if they had ever seen sperm under one. … He suggested to Mark that if he wanted to, he could have a quiet wank whilst Neil was being circumcised… This was eagerly accepted. … He lay back with his eyes closed and just let the doctor get on.

In April this year, Quaintance, from Upper Norwood, became a member of another “exclusive” club when he was put on the Sex Offenders’ Register after being convicted in the Old Bailey of possessing a stash of child porn.

But, despite having three video cassettes with nine-hours’ worth of clips showing boys as young as 11 engaging in sex acts, Quaintance avoided a jail sentence. The retired telephone engineer was handed a 40-week jail term, suspended for two years, ordered to complete a sexual offenders rehabilitation course, and told to pay £300 costs.

Residents in Henley Gardens, where Quaintance is known as “the respected head of the local community association”, were shocked to hear of his conviction. One neighbour, who did not want to be named, said:

I know he is a very religious man and is committed to the church.

Curious as to whether, in the light of Quaintance’s conviction, the Gilgal Society was still publishing circumcision porn, I clicked on the “Publications” link, only to receive this message:

We regret that as a result of major computer failure none of our publications are currently available to order from us.

Let’s hope its “computer failure” is terminal.

NOTE: There also a petition calling for a halt to female genital mutilation in the UK.



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Posted 6/21/12 , edited 6/21/12

longfenglim wrote:


nanuq wrote:

Wait there are people who actually believe that circumcision serves as a preventive measure against STD, in other words, decreases the chances of getting one? =D And all that in the internet age? tsk tsk


Actually, it has been shown conclusively to prevent HIV- the UN actually recommends it as a measure to slow the spread of HIV in Africa, and several studies show, prehaps not as conclusively, that it does prevent the spread certain STDs.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=circumcision-penis-microbiome-hiv-infection

All this in the internet age.


Bro, I know that sometimes google spits out interesting looking articles, and very sincere looking ones at that if the URL contains something related to SCIENCE..., but after reading through the article, and going through the documents this article is based on, I must say that, it's rather a shame that scientificamerican has such an unprofessional author posting such misguiding articles as facts (not even mentioning that the article is still up and there, leading people to false conclusions -- just like the article that is a whole lot of really bad intended assumption). The way the studies and analysis were conducted they do not have a conclusive nature in terms of whether it actually does help prevent the spread of STDs or not. Also the cause of infection has not been properly researched, in other words, were the newly infected men exposed to HIV due to sex, or other practices that could lead to infection (e.g. piercing). Also the sample (men) is too low in numbers, as an example from one of the researches: they had out of 65 participants only data on sexual behaviour and HIV rate for 7 men after a certain timelapse -- can this be considered a serious study? a sample that should be taken seriously, considered as evidence?
For me these three randomised clinical trials make no sense, because there are so many flaws in the way they were conducted that it hurts my eyes.

Here is evidence, just in case you're thinking I'm sucking it out of my rainbow fingers, that I am not the only one who thinks that those three RTCs are flawed from A-Z. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22320006

Is it reproducible? bring me something that actually does support the claim that it has some positive effect on STD transmission rate.

Oh and before I forget...what about the women who sleep with the circumcised men? what is the infection rate ?
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Posted 6/21/12

nanuq wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


nanuq wrote:

Wait there are people who actually believe that circumcision serves as a preventive measure against STD, in other words, decreases the chances of getting one? =D And all that in the internet age? tsk tsk


Actually, it has been shown conclusively to prevent HIV- the UN actually recommends it as a measure to slow the spread of HIV in Africa, and several studies show, prehaps not as conclusively, that it does prevent the spread certain STDs.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=circumcision-penis-microbiome-hiv-infection

All this in the internet age.


Bro, I know that sometimes google spits out interesting looking articles, and very sincere looking ones at that if the URL contains something related to SCIENCE..., but after reading through the article, and going through the documents this article is based on, I must say that, it's rather a shame that scientificamerican has such an unprofessional author posting such misguiding articles as facts (not even mentioning that the article is still up and there, leading people to false conclusions -- just like the article that is a whole lot of really bad intended assumption). The way the studies and analysis were conducted they do not have a conclusive nature in terms of whether it actually does help prevent the spread of STDs or not. Also the cause of infection has not been properly researched, in other words, were the newly infected men exposed to HIV due to sex, or other practices that could lead to infection (e.g. piercing). Also the sample (men) is too low in numbers, as an example from one of the researches: they had out of 65 participants only data on sexual behaviour and HIV rate for 7 men after a certain timelapse -- can this be considered a serious study? a sample that should be taken seriously, considered as evidence?
For me these three randomised clinical trials make no sense, because there are so many flaws in the way they were conducted that it hurts my eyes.

Here is evidence, just in case you're thinking I'm sucking it out of my rainbow fingers, that I am not the only one who thinks that those three RTCs are flawed from A-Z. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22320006

Is it reproducible? bring me something that actually does support the claim that it has some positive effect on STD transmission rate.

Oh and before I forget...what about the women who sleep with the circumcised men? what is the infection rate ?



You are rather misinformed on almost every level, and, indeed, I do not know how it is possible to be as misinformed as you are. For one, I am not your brother, and if you want to make sure, I am more than willing to provide some blood sample. Secondly, you say that you are convinced that the article is misguided, and that ScientificAmerican should be ashamed of itself for posting such an article, that the entire study is flawed, and your objections are as follows:

1. That it does not test for other method of obtaining HIV
2. That the same size was far to small
3. There are so many flaws that it hurts your eyes.

The first is easily disposed of in that the test took place entirely in the rural district of Uganda, which, to the shame of the Ugandan government and to the world at large, does not have access to an adequetly staffed hospital, let alone any device dedicated to blood transfusion. Nor, do I think, Ugandans of Rakai drink human blood, or pierce themselves, so these concerns are inapplicable, and, if they are, then one must show, first, that such blood transfusions and blood drinking and piercing occur with greater frequency among people who are not circumcised. Secondly, you provide the numbers 65 participant and 7 who are questioned about their sexual behaviour. This is complete bullocks, and , had you bother to read the study for yourself rather than, as I suspect, get all the information from second hand sources, such as your little site, you would have found the number to be significantly higher, that is, that they had a randomized trial of around 5,000 HIV-negative men, half of whom were circumcised, hardly the 65 participants you came up with, which is probably you can't imagine why anyone would take it seriously- you made up the numbers.

In addition, you ask that it be reproducible. you seem rather confused, this is not some sort of experiment anyone can do in his lab- it is a study which the effect of circumcision is tested by drawing a randomized group of people, a portion of whom are given the treatment, and then tested not only on whether or not they obtain the disease, but upon behaviour that may increase the risk of obtaining HIV.But if you seek more articles on the subject, then go back several pages where I have posted several studies showing similar results. You can raise your objections to each of them, just, for the love of God, read them, instead of drawing your criticism from second hand sources.

http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60313-4/abstract
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This is another rape.

The Sowetan
June 21, 2012
Taxi driver kidnapped and forcibly circumcised

By Frank Maponya Limpopo Bureau Chief

"The abductors must be traced and face penalties" - House of Traditional Leaders. But the victim will not be released from the school

THE family of a Limpopo taxi owner is fuming after he was abducted, allegedly by his colleagues in the taxi industry, and forced into an initiation school to be circumcised.

The incident happened on Sunday, two days after the start of the initiation season, in Nebo in the Sekhukhune area.

Jacob Mafiri, 42, was allegedly taken against his will to an initiation school in Eensaam village.

Mafiri is a well-known taxi owner and driver in the area.

It is not known what prompted the action and the matter is still under investigation.

His brother, Thomas, confirmed to Sowetan that Mafiri had not yet been to an initiation school as required by the culture of his family.

"We come from a religious family in which none of us, including our parents, were ever allowed to attend initiations," Thomas said.

"We view what happened to Jacob as his rights having been trampled on by the perpetrators.

"Jacob has a wife and five children who all depend on him," he said.

"His car is parked and cannot operate because no one, except the owner, has a permit to operate it as a taxi."

...

Thomas said it was worrisome that the period between now and when the initiation schools were set to close down was long and that his brother's family would starve.Mafiri is the sole breadwinner.

Limpopo deputy chairman of the House of Traditional Leaders Hosi Eric Chauke said abduction was not allowed as they - the men who adducted Mafiri - had the responsibility to "respect other people's human rights".

"In this case the abductors must be traced and face penalties," Chauke said.

"It is obviously a police case and we will report it."

...










Queen’s Park baby bled to death two days after being circumcised

Brent & Kilburn Times (London)
June 22, 2012

Inquest hears 28-day-old tot lost three-quarters of his total blood volume

A one-month-old baby from Queen’s Park bled to death less than two days after he was circumcised, an inquest heard.

Angelo Ofori-Mintah’s operation went according to plan, but a few hours later the incision began to bleed.

Westminster Coroner’s Court heard it eventually stopped and his mother Maame Abrafi, who lives in Ashmore Road, thought he was fine.

However the following day he became cold and pale and was rushed to hospital with dangerously low oxygen levels.

He suffered a cardiac arrest and died in the early hours of February 17.

Tests revealed he had lost about three-quarters of his total blood volume and died as a result of an acute haemorrhage due to circumcision.

The inquest heard Mrs Abrafi had received clear aftercare instructions from Rabbi Mordehai Cohen, who carried out the procedure.

The qualified practitioner gave her a printed guide which included his contact details in case of emergency.

He also explained that she was to leave the bandage on for 24 hours ‘at all costs’.

But realising her 28-day-old son was bleeding, the court heard, Mrs Abrafi who is originally from Ghana, removed it within nine hours.

She was unable to call the Rabbi because she did not have enough phone credit so texted a friend who contacted him for her.

The friend said the Rabbi had suggested applying petroleum jelly but as she hadn’t seen the baby she was relying on Mrs Abrafi’s description.

This created a ‘tragic break-down in communication’ said Deputy Coroner Shirley Radcliffe, which left Rabbi Cohen unaware of the full circumstances.

Rabbi Cohen was entirely blameless for the tragedy.

Directing her comments to Mrs Abrafi, Mrs Radcliffe said: “This is simply a tragic accident, an unforeseen consequence of the surgical procedure that this baby undertook.

[What's unforseen? "If you cut me, do I not bleed?" The baby didn't "undertake" anything. The "undertaking" was entirely by misguided adults - then by the undertaker.]

“My deepest condolences.”

Verdict: Accidental death.





The Star (Nairobi)
June 21, 2012
Kenya: Government Blamed for FGM in Kuria

By Benson Nyagesiba

Two NGOs on Tuesday blamed the government for doing little to eradicate FGM in Kuria East and West districts.

The Young Women Christian Association and Education Centre for the Advancement of Women claimed that the provincial administration in the area was not supporting efforts to protect the girl child from FGM.

Speaking in Kisii during a sensitization forum organized by YWCA Kisii branch, ECAW program officer Cecilia Wangui said elders from the community contribute a lot to the rising cases of FGM by insisting that girls undergo circumcision in order to be accepted in the society. "Many girls don't finish primary because they get married immediately they are circumcised because they are forced by the parents to do so for the sake of dowry," she added. "A section of chiefs who are supposed to be at the forefront of the fight are secretly circumcising their daughters," Colleta Bwahi, a paralegal with ECAW claimed. She hailed women assistant chiefs in the area for joining the fight.








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Posted 6/25/12
Technically you are mutilating his penis, but then again your son probably would hate the fact that he wasn't circumcised later down the road.
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nobody is stopping men over 18 from getting themselves circumcised. over 85% of the world's men are not circumcised and they are not rushing to doctors to get themselves circumcised
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Posted 6/25/12

shinto-male wrote:

nobody is stopping men over 18 from getting themselves circumcised. over 85% of the world's men are not circumcised and they are not rushing to doctors to get themselves circumcised
Because it's painful as shit, but you'll probably have something to say to that too.
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Posted 6/26/12
Yes circumcision is child abuse, it's basically genital mutilation, I mean you won't cut off a baby girls clitoris for no reason... However on the other hand if necessary for health reasons it should be used as a last resort.
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DraiKofi wrote:

Yes circumcision is child abuse, it's basically genital mutilation, I mean you won't cut off a baby girls clitoris for no reason... However on the other hand if necessary for health reasons it should be used as a last resort.

I wasn't aware that the foreskin gave men sexual pleasure. The clitoris is where women, so to speak, experience girl-boners. The male and female bodies are contructed differently, there is no 'equivilant' to any given body part. Like how there isn't a male equivliant for breasts. As for your second point, you woulnd't circumcise some for health reasons. They're a lot of health risks involved in circumcision. I believe in the Victorian-era, many young boys were circumcised because it was believed to prevent masturbating and increase hygiene. Then a whole bunch of them got infections down there because of the lack of hygiene and died.

@OP:
Circumcision is fine. There's a difference between circumcising a newborn and a child. A newborn will have no recollection of the pain, therefore it won't affect them later in life. Therefore, this is not child abuse. A child will remember the pain and possibly be traumatized by is, so in this case, this would be considered child abuse. There're also health risks involved with doing this to a young child, but almost none in the case of newborns. Most circumcisions are performed at birth, though.

If a family believes in a certain faith, and wish to remove the foreskin of their newborn male children, then let them. Or even because they simply feel it's better that way. Circumcision does not nessacarily have to sceam 'I'M A [insert religion here]'.
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polx wrote:


DraiKofi wrote:

Yes circumcision is child abuse, it's basically genital mutilation, I mean you won't cut off a baby girls clitoris for no reason... However on the other hand if necessary for health reasons it should be used as a last resort.

I wasn't aware that the foreskin gave men sexual pleasure. The clitoris is where women, so to speak, experience girl-boners. The male and female bodies are contructed differently, there is no 'equivilant' to any given body part. Like how there isn't a male equivliant for breasts. As for your second point, you woulnd't circumcise some for health reasons. They're a lot of health risks involved in circumcision. I believe in the Victorian-era, many young boys were circumcised because it was believed to prevent masturbating and increase hygiene. Then a whole bunch of them got infections down there because of the lack of hygiene and died.

@OP:
Circumcision is fine. There's a difference between circumcising a newborn and a child. A newborn will have no recollection of the pain, therefore it won't affect them later in life. Therefore, this is not child abuse. A child will remember the pain and possibly be traumatized by is, so in this case, this would be considered child abuse. There're also health risks involved with doing this to a young child, but almost none in the case of newborns. Most circumcisions are performed at birth, though.

If a family believes in a certain faith, and wish to remove the foreskin of their newborn male children, then let them. Or even because they simply feel it's better that way. Circumcision does not nessacarily have to sceam 'I'M A [insert religion here]'.


First yes, usage of the foreskin does give men pleasure especially when masturbating, some men use their foreskin instead of lube when masturbating and the foreskin itself has many nerve endings and is very sensitive, but it provides the most pleasure because of the way it slides up and down the head and penis.

Secondly I didn't say that the male foreskin and the female clitoris were equivalent, what I didn't elaborate on was that some religions cut off a newborn baby's foreskin for no reason because its their old aged "tradition" and I personally think it is wrong. You wouldn't mutilate a part of a female's genitalia for no reason so why do it to males?. Thirdly I didn't say not to circumcise for health reasons, In my opinion circumcision should only be used as a very last resort as it is taking off a part of your body and as you said their are certain risks to circumcision.
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Posted 6/26/12

DraiKofi wrote:


polx wrote:


DraiKofi wrote:

Yes circumcision is child abuse, it's basically genital mutilation, I mean you won't cut off a baby girls clitoris for no reason... However on the other hand if necessary for health reasons it should be used as a last resort.

I wasn't aware that the foreskin gave men sexual pleasure. The clitoris is where women, so to speak, experience girl-boners. The male and female bodies are contructed differently, there is no 'equivilant' to any given body part. Like how there isn't a male equivliant for breasts. As for your second point, you woulnd't circumcise some for health reasons. They're a lot of health risks involved in circumcision. I believe in the Victorian-era, many young boys were circumcised because it was believed to prevent masturbating and increase hygiene. Then a whole bunch of them got infections down there because of the lack of hygiene and died.

@OP:
Circumcision is fine. There's a difference between circumcising a newborn and a child. A newborn will have no recollection of the pain, therefore it won't affect them later in life. Therefore, this is not child abuse. A child will remember the pain and possibly be traumatized by is, so in this case, this would be considered child abuse. There're also health risks involved with doing this to a young child, but almost none in the case of newborns. Most circumcisions are performed at birth, though.

If a family believes in a certain faith, and wish to remove the foreskin of their newborn male children, then let them. Or even because they simply feel it's better that way. Circumcision does not nessacarily have to sceam 'I'M A [insert religion here]'.


First yes, usage of the foreskin does give men pleasure especially when masturbating, some men use their foreskin instead of lube when masturbating and the foreskin itself has many nerve endings and is very sensitive, but it provides the most pleasure because of the way it slides up and down the head and penis.

Secondly I didn't say that the male foreskin and the female clitoris were equivalent, what I didn't elaborate on was that some religions cut off a newborn baby's foreskin for no reason because its their old aged "tradition" and I personally think it is wrong. You wouldn't mutilate a part of a female's genitalia for no reason so why do it to males?. Thirdly I didn't say not to circumcise for health reasons, In my opinion circumcision should only be used as a very last resort as it is taking off a part of your body and as you said their are certain risks to circumcision.

I believe you misread, I said that it's a bad idea to circumcise for health reasons. I can't think of a situation where you would need to get circumcised to improve your health. Tradition is a reason for circumcision, though not a very good one, and I don't see it as mutilation. The penis still keeps it's original function, and why it's cruel is beyond me. Many cultures will purposely contort their bodies because it is their tradition to do so, I see circumsicion the same way. In certain cultures, women will stretch their earlobes in order to insert huge discs into them. The process starts when they are children, would that also be considered 'child abuse'?
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