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Is circumcision child abuse?
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22 / M / washington
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Posted 3/25/12

amersfoort wrote:



And there you make an insane claim, that the freedom of religion allows us to do with our children as we please.
Freedom of religion implies that you can do whatever you want for your religion with YOUR body, not someone elses.
The baby hasn't made up their mind over a religion yet, you are simply forcing it to believe what you believe, and mark it while doing so.
Now you might not care what others do with their children, but I do, and I hope for the sake of the world that many others do as well.

Now i will try to show you your flawed argument of freedom of religion.
Now for example I had a religion that was publicly accepted, and as a ritual on newborns we spoon out one of their eyes, should we be allowed to? We will use the same argument as you do, and say it's freedom of religion, would that make it actually okay? No I would not, just like the argument of freedom of religion on cutting of the foreskin of a defenseless child this would not do.

Now I know my analogy is extreme, but it is basically the same.

By the way, I'm afraid you wont find out my stance on abortion, but I can assure you it is not as you think.


dude i was just telling you how it is not if its right or not that's just how the country is run also i would like to talk about what you think about abortion over a message if you want

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24 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 3/25/12

_mikecc_ wrote:


amersfoort wrote:



And there you make an insane claim, that the freedom of religion allows us to do with our children as we please.
Freedom of religion implies that you can do whatever you want for your religion with YOUR body, not someone elses.
The baby hasn't made up their mind over a religion yet, you are simply forcing it to believe what you believe, and mark it while doing so.
Now you might not care what others do with their children, but I do, and I hope for the sake of the world that many others do as well.

Now i will try to show you your flawed argument of freedom of religion.
Now for example I had a religion that was publicly accepted, and as a ritual on newborns we spoon out one of their eyes, should we be allowed to? We will use the same argument as you do, and say it's freedom of religion, would that make it actually okay? No I would not, just like the argument of freedom of religion on cutting of the foreskin of a defenseless child this would not do.

Now I know my analogy is extreme, but it is basically the same.

By the way, I'm afraid you wont find out my stance on abortion, but I can assure you it is not as you think.


dude i was just telling you how it is not if its right or not that's just how the country is run also i would like to talk about what you think about abortion over a message if you want



Well, shouldn't a country try to do what is right? And not was is common?

And sure I would want to talk about abortion with you, however only if that stays out of this debate of course.
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22 / M / washington
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Posted 3/25/12

amersfoort wrote:


_mikecc_ wrote:


amersfoort wrote:



And there you make an insane claim, that the freedom of religion allows us to do with our children as we please.
Freedom of religion implies that you can do whatever you want for your religion with YOUR body, not someone elses.
The baby hasn't made up their mind over a religion yet, you are simply forcing it to believe what you believe, and mark it while doing so.
Now you might not care what others do with their children, but I do, and I hope for the sake of the world that many others do as well.

Now i will try to show you your flawed argument of freedom of religion.
Now for example I had a religion that was publicly accepted, and as a ritual on newborns we spoon out one of their eyes, should we be allowed to? We will use the same argument as you do, and say it's freedom of religion, would that make it actually okay? No I would not, just like the argument of freedom of religion on cutting of the foreskin of a defenseless child this would not do.

Now I know my analogy is extreme, but it is basically the same.

By the way, I'm afraid you wont find out my stance on abortion, but I can assure you it is not as you think.


dude i was just telling you how it is not if its right or not that's just how the country is run also i would like to talk about what you think about abortion over a message if you want



Well, shouldn't a country try to do what is right? And not was is common?

And sure I would want to talk about abortion with you, however only if that stays out of this debate of course.


well as i said before its really subjective and for some people it is a big thing to what they believe and even though Jesus said he fulfilled the law and its not to terribly important to be circumcised anymore it is as you said a traditional and ritualistic thing which can be super important to people. my mom said the reason she had me have one because she wanted mine to look like my dads! lol so i don't think it will happen and not trying to get off subject but people say the same thing you do about circumcision but with abortion. its not an easy thing to come to a conclusion to.

(but yea if you want to message me telling me what you think about abortion that would be cool)

(and yea
6268 cr points
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24 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 3/25/12


well as i said before its really subjective and for some people it is a big thing to what they believe and even though Jesus said he fulfilled the law and its not to terribly important to be circumcised anymore it is as you said a traditional and ritualistic thing which can be super important to people. my mom said the reason she had me have one because she wanted mine to look like my dads! lol so i don't think it will happen and not trying to get off subject but people say the same thing you do about circumcision but with abortion. its not an easy thing to come to a conclusion to.

(but yea if you want to message me telling me what you think about abortion that would be cool)

(and yea


To compare the tradition of circumcision with something like abortion is ridiculous, it's not a ritual it's something completely different.

Now you say that it is important to people other than the baby, now I'm trying to tell you that those other people do not matter, they can think whatever they want, but they may not ever physically hurt the baby unless it has health benefits.

Now in my eyes it's a very easy thing to come to a conclusion to, wait till the person is 18 or perhaps 16 and let that individual make the decision instead of going after a defenseless child.
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31 / M / Toronto, Canada
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Posted 3/25/12
Man sues over son's botched circumcision

KUALA LUMPUR - A 14-year-old boy has sued the Federal Territory Islamic Affairs Department and two others for negligence during a circumcision, which he claimed had left his "sexual function doubtful".

However, the department was let off the hook when High Court Judge Justice Zabariah Mohd Yusof allowed its application to strike out the claim with a cost of RM1,000 (S$410) yesterday.

Case management for the claim against the two other defendants - Sunathrone Bio Medical Sdn Bhd and its medical officer adviser Dr Mohd Tasron Surat - has been fixed for April 5.

She made the order after hearing submissions by Federal Counsel Mohamad Sallehud-din Md Ali and the boy's lawyer Stefeny David in chambers.

Mohamad Muhammad Farhan, who sued through his father Ishahak Mak, said he had suffered severe injuries to his private parts as well as emotional and psychological disturbance due to their negligence after taking part in a mass circumcision programme on Nov 16, 2008.

He said there were 357 participants in the event known as Program Sunathon Perdana Jabatan Agama Islam Wilayah Persekutuan at Masjid Al-Muqarrabin in Bandar Tasik Selatan.

The programme was organised by the department and Sunathrone.

In the lawsuit filed on Nov 14, Muhammad Farhan claimed that the defendants had failed to ensure that there was no injury to his private parts during the circumcision.

He said Sunathrone had failed to ensure that it had sufficient and experienced doctors to conduct the circumcision, alleging that he suffered pain on his private parts and had to undergo other surgeries.

He claimed that he had suffered pain and could not urinate the day after the circumcision.

Muhammad Farhan said a government hospital specialist had since advised him that the condition of his "sexual function" at present was "doubtful".

He said he had also arrived at the mosque at 8am for the circumcision but could only undergo the procedure at 5pm because there was no proper system in place.

The boy, who claimed to have been embarrassed and disappointed by their actions, is seeking general and special damages, costs, and other relief deemed fit by the court.

http://www.yourhealth.com.sg/content/man-sues-over-sons-botched-circumcision

From hobo to top musician

By Sbusiso Shongwe

HIP-HOP star Chronic X this week related how he narrowly escaped from an initiation school in the mountains of Eastern Cape.

Born Xolani Fani at Dimbaza in Eastern Cape, the musician says he ran away from an initiation school in 2000.

"I had only R300 but I also had a dream: I had to run for my life."

These tales are embedded in his Xhosa/English debut album, Miss SA, and a music video for the track Look At That. Most of the songs in the album are about Dimbaza in Eastern Cape; the streets, the people, the love and the cruelty that left his community in distress.

"But one song that still rings new every time I listen to it is Big Brother," he says.

Big Brother recounts the death of a friend who died as a result of a circumcision gone wrong, which doctors say was pneumonia. But Chronic X is sure that whatever happened in the mountains killed his friend.

"My friend went to the mountain and on the fourth day he was dead. I was scared. He died on Saturday, we buried him Sunday and I was gone on Monday.

"Surprisingly, my parents understood that I had to leave, something they would not have done under normal circumstances and given that I was 17 years old," says Chronic X.

"During that period more people of my youth were dying, some from petty crimes, some from community beatings. But most of them were dying from entabeni [the hill, where the ritual is held] and that shocked the whole community. These are untold tales depicting events at Dimbaza in 2000."

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/entertainment/2012/03/23/from-hobo-to-top-musician
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32 / M
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Posted 4/4/12
only the circumcised part of my penis feels good.

take that as you will.
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34 / M / Small Wooded town...
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Posted 4/4/12

ChrisNP wrote:

only the circumcised part of my penis feels good.

take that as you will.


The pleasure you get now.. x that by 10.. That is what the level of pleasure you would get if you did not get circumcised.. Lucky for you religion has dictated that you should not feel such bliss.
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32 / M
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Posted 4/5/12
i believed you people before and my self esteem went to shit. i don't really see why i should even care. mind your own business.
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24 / M / The Netherlands
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Posted 4/5/12

ChrisNP wrote:

i believed you people before and my self esteem went to shit. i don't really see why i should even care. mind your own business.


That's just silly, it's not my business when a person gets clubbed to death, but i will try to do something about it (hopefully), and it will be a good thing if I do.

Now the question is, is circumcision child abuse? Not, does your weewee feel good after it being cut.

My arguments are that it is physical damage forced upon a baby with no long term health benefits and even long term negative sexual consequences.

If you're glad you got circumsized, that's fine and all, but then ask the question: Why didn't they wait till i was old enough to make this decision myself? And of course, would I do it again at this age?

Circumcision wouldn't be an issue for me if it was like a tattoo, the person needs to be of a certain age to make this decision. However this not being the case, I am against circumcision of children.
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19 / M
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Posted 4/5/12
Unlike many other 'extended discussion' threads, I actually have a complete answer supported by facts and logic!
I feel proud. Now watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGcqPE7xu0
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22 / M / France
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Posted 4/18/12
A disciple said to his master: "Is circumcision beneficial or not?"
He said to him, "If it were beneficial, their father would beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."
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32 / M
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Posted 4/18/12 , edited 4/18/12
yeah, and we shouldn't eat we should just starve to death because we aren't born with natural food-generators in our body either.

Don't cut your hair, either. Nature intended we all look like shaggy beasts.
Posted 4/18/12

ChrisNP wrote:

yeah, and we shouldn't eat we should just starve to death because we aren't born with natural food-generators in our body either.

Don't cut your hair, either. Nature intended we all look like shaggy beasts.
That sorta cynicism was uncalled for and irrelevant. When hair styling is just a part of grooming, which is a relaxing social activity among primates, while eating for survival is a part of life's process. Foreskin removal was neither.
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32 / M
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Posted 4/18/12
well, sorry.

i don't know how else to argue against you.

sigh.
Posted 4/19/12

ChrisNP wrote:

well, sorry.

i don't know how else to argue against you.

sigh.
You could pretend that you've got the upper-hand by yourself belittling my person and my argument with straw-man fallacy, kinda like how this guy had done with a different topic. But in fact his belittlement and dismissive attitude was a fear management strategy, while he was just trying to lessen his feeling of vulnerability by himself getting even with me. Which quite frankly is rather pathetic and vain when we think about it, because he didn't really made any definitive point against my argument.
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