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Post Reply are you religious? if so, why?
Posted 4/29/13
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Posted 4/29/13

sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:

as you said, "It gives hope. For some people hope in Christ that there is something else is better than this life.
Constant pain, cancer, murder, tumors, worries, fear, so many emotions and things that happens in this life. Some things God has blessed is with but he has never left us. Everyone has a measure of faith and hope.
Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
You can't see wind but you feel it. God can be felt by some people.
For some people they can feel the presence of God through the spirit of hope that Jesus gave when he died upon the cross.
Hope for a better life without the troubles of this world. a better life a new name and a new body.

When life looks empty, when depression and a host of other things come against you. It's the hope of God that sees people though.


I don't think believing something because you hope it to be true is particularly useful. Instead it sounds paralyzing to me. Why work to improve life now if you can just wait for the next life that will be better. But that's more of a value argument and if believing in a god gives people hope then so be it.

I take more of an issue with your statement that everyone has faith. As I've stated before, I don't have faith in anything.
I have tentative trust in people based on past interactions, but those update based on continuing behavior and hope plays no role in that. If I find I hold beliefs that are unfounded I discard them. Beliefs inform actions after all, as well as what other beliefs we're likely to accept. Critical thinking skills are important precicely because as humans wer'e prone to making errors.

Your definition looks like it uses seen like in percievable (see how that word goes back to visual stimuli as well) as in we can sense that it's there. If you really only use see in the narrow definition of seeing with your eyes, then you're using a really weird definition of fath. If a bunch of people hear you say something that is still not something taken on faith, just because they didn't see the sound.

Anyway, wind is a perfect example of something that can be demonstrated (even visually) because it's a process that affects other objects. You can see the effect of wind when it blows leaves. Besides that you can hear it and feel it. Our explenations for wind come from an understanding of air currents amongst other things, but we don't have to take the existence of wind on faith. Same goes for gravity and evolution. We've built our model of reality by taking the consensus of what our different senses suggest us and going from there to find explanations for our observations, which we then continue to test against new observations. Science doesn't require faith, it demonstrates.

As to people experiencing god doing things to them, that always seems to be an indirect inference. People have a feeling, found something on a significant date or had some experience that can be framed into a religious allegory. However the phenomena of a creator god cannot be experienced. Besides that an experience with god is necissarily personal and to anyone else it's no more than hearsay. We already know people can easily be tricked visually and mentally by stage magicians and the like, so hearsay isn't good enough evidence.

I have never been depressed, so I can't judge people who have been and found hope in a god, but hope can be derived from falsehoods in equal amounts as it can be from truths, Depression is a vulnerable state though that too many are eager to exploit, so anything that appears to aim for that angle is treated with suspect from me.




Everyone believes in something, even if it is only that they believe that they are correct and Christianity and religion is wrong.
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Posted 4/29/13

luvsailoromance wrote:


sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:

as you said, "It gives hope. For some people hope in Christ that there is something else is better than this life.
Constant pain, cancer, murder, tumors, worries, fear, so many emotions and things that happens in this life. Some things God has blessed is with but he has never left us. Everyone has a measure of faith and hope.
Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
You can't see wind but you feel it. God can be felt by some people.
For some people they can feel the presence of God through the spirit of hope that Jesus gave when he died upon the cross.
Hope for a better life without the troubles of this world. a better life a new name and a new body.

When life looks empty, when depression and a host of other things come against you. It's the hope of God that sees people though.


I don't think believing something because you hope it to be true is particularly useful. Instead it sounds paralyzing to me. Why work to improve life now if you can just wait for the next life that will be better. But that's more of a value argument and if believing in a god gives people hope then so be it.

I take more of an issue with your statement that everyone has faith. As I've stated before, I don't have faith in anything.
I have tentative trust in people based on past interactions, but those update based on continuing behavior and hope plays no role in that. If I find I hold beliefs that are unfounded I discard them. Beliefs inform actions after all, as well as what other beliefs we're likely to accept. Critical thinking skills are important precicely because as humans wer'e prone to making errors.

Your definition looks like it uses seen like in percievable (see how that word goes back to visual stimuli as well) as in we can sense that it's there. If you really only use see in the narrow definition of seeing with your eyes, then you're using a really weird definition of fath. If a bunch of people hear you say something that is still not something taken on faith, just because they didn't see the sound.

Anyway, wind is a perfect example of something that can be demonstrated (even visually) because it's a process that affects other objects. You can see the effect of wind when it blows leaves. Besides that you can hear it and feel it. Our explenations for wind come from an understanding of air currents amongst other things, but we don't have to take the existence of wind on faith. Same goes for gravity and evolution. We've built our model of reality by taking the consensus of what our different senses suggest us and going from there to find explanations for our observations, which we then continue to test against new observations. Science doesn't require faith, it demonstrates.

As to people experiencing god doing things to them, that always seems to be an indirect inference. People have a feeling, found something on a significant date or had some experience that can be framed into a religious allegory. However the phenomena of a creator god cannot be experienced. Besides that an experience with god is necissarily personal and to anyone else it's no more than hearsay. We already know people can easily be tricked visually and mentally by stage magicians and the like, so hearsay isn't good enough evidence.

I have never been depressed, so I can't judge people who have been and found hope in a god, but hope can be derived from falsehoods in equal amounts as it can be from truths, Depression is a vulnerable state though that too many are eager to exploit, so anything that appears to aim for that angle is treated with suspect from me.




Everyone believes in something, even if it is only that they believe that they are correct and Christianity and religion is wrong.


there's lots of things I believe to be true (tentatively) and there are people I trust to the extent that they've shown to be trustworthy. Under your definition of faith (and mine coincidentally) I don't have faith in anything.
It was YOU who defined the word faith remember, here I'll paste it again. Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things ot seen.

That's different from believing because of evidence based reasoning. Don't go playing word games after you've already submitted the definition of a word you're using.
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Posted 4/29/13

sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:


sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:

as you said, "It gives hope. For some people hope in Christ that there is something else is better than this life.
Constant pain, cancer, murder, tumors, worries, fear, so many emotions and things that happens in this life. Some things God has blessed is with but he has never left us. Everyone has a measure of faith and hope.
Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
You can't see wind but you feel it. God can be felt by some people.
For some people they can feel the presence of God through the spirit of hope that Jesus gave when he died upon the cross.
Hope for a better life without the troubles of this world. a better life a new name and a new body.

When life looks empty, when depression and a host of other things come against you. It's the hope of God that sees people though.


I don't think believing something because you hope it to be true is particularly useful. Instead it sounds paralyzing to me. Why work to improve life now if you can just wait for the next life that will be better. But that's more of a value argument and if believing in a god gives people hope then so be it.

I take more of an issue with your statement that everyone has faith. As I've stated before, I don't have faith in anything.
I have tentative trust in people based on past interactions, but those update based on continuing behavior and hope plays no role in that. If I find I hold beliefs that are unfounded I discard them. Beliefs inform actions after all, as well as what other beliefs we're likely to accept. Critical thinking skills are important precicely because as humans wer'e prone to making errors.

Your definition looks like it uses seen like in percievable (see how that word goes back to visual stimuli as well) as in we can sense that it's there. If you really only use see in the narrow definition of seeing with your eyes, then you're using a really weird definition of fath. If a bunch of people hear you say something that is still not something taken on faith, just because they didn't see the sound.

Anyway, wind is a perfect example of something that can be demonstrated (even visually) because it's a process that affects other objects. You can see the effect of wind when it blows leaves. Besides that you can hear it and feel it. Our explenations for wind come from an understanding of air currents amongst other things, but we don't have to take the existence of wind on faith. Same goes for gravity and evolution. We've built our model of reality by taking the consensus of what our different senses suggest us and going from there to find explanations for our observations, which we then continue to test against new observations. Science doesn't require faith, it demonstrates.

As to people experiencing god doing things to them, that always seems to be an indirect inference. People have a feeling, found something on a significant date or had some experience that can be framed into a religious allegory. However the phenomena of a creator god cannot be experienced. Besides that an experience with god is necissarily personal and to anyone else it's no more than hearsay. We already know people can easily be tricked visually and mentally by stage magicians and the like, so hearsay isn't good enough evidence.

I have never been depressed, so I can't judge people who have been and found hope in a god, but hope can be derived from falsehoods in equal amounts as it can be from truths, Depression is a vulnerable state though that too many are eager to exploit, so anything that appears to aim for that angle is treated with suspect from me.




Everyone believes in something, even if it is only that they believe that they are correct and Christianity and religion is wrong.


there's lots of things I believe to be true (tentatively) and there are people I trust to the extent that they've shown to be trustworthy. Under your definition of faith (and mine coincidentally) I don't have faith in anything.
It was YOU who defined the word faith remember, here I'll paste it again. Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things ot seen.

That's different from believing because of evidence based reasoning. Don't go playing word games after you've already submitted the definition of a word you're using.


I'm not playing word games, a lot of things are not seen but accepted as universal truth. What someone is saying and what you get out of it isn't necessarily the same thing all the time. You're wrong and now you're getting upset. because you stated earlier that it''s paralyzing to believe in something and the fact that you're upset and arguing proves that you do believe if nothing else that you're correct in your assumptions.
The wind is there and you can feel it. But simply because where I am I don't feel the air doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't here. even when the wind has died down it doesn't mean wind isn't someplace else.
A few years ago aliens and another planet like ours were only in the movies and no one believed it. Just like they believed the world was flat. Now there is proof that there is another planet. Simply because you didn't see it a few years ago doesn't mean it wasn't real back then because of the lack of scientific technology..
In order to feel God's presence you have to first believe and that would be the proof some state they need. Jesus said this and I know it's true, "Thomas, you believe me because you see me but blessed are those who believe and do not see."
Simply because you can't see a thing doesn't make it any less real. You and I can only go on what we believe is true. We won't know who is the correct one until Christ returns.
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Posted 4/29/13

luvsailoromance wrote:


sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:


sharkjack wrote:


luvsailoromance wrote:

as you said, "It gives hope. For some people hope in Christ that there is something else is better than this life.
Constant pain, cancer, murder, tumors, worries, fear, so many emotions and things that happens in this life. Some things God has blessed is with but he has never left us. Everyone has a measure of faith and hope.
Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
You can't see wind but you feel it. God can be felt by some people.
For some people they can feel the presence of God through the spirit of hope that Jesus gave when he died upon the cross.
Hope for a better life without the troubles of this world. a better life a new name and a new body.

When life looks empty, when depression and a host of other things come against you. It's the hope of God that sees people though.


I don't think believing something because you hope it to be true is particularly useful. Instead it sounds paralyzing to me. Why work to improve life now if you can just wait for the next life that will be better. But that's more of a value argument and if believing in a god gives people hope then so be it.

I take more of an issue with your statement that everyone has faith. As I've stated before, I don't have faith in anything.
I have tentative trust in people based on past interactions, but those update based on continuing behavior and hope plays no role in that. If I find I hold beliefs that are unfounded I discard them. Beliefs inform actions after all, as well as what other beliefs we're likely to accept. Critical thinking skills are important precicely because as humans wer'e prone to making errors.

Your definition looks like it uses seen like in percievable (see how that word goes back to visual stimuli as well) as in we can sense that it's there. If you really only use see in the narrow definition of seeing with your eyes, then you're using a really weird definition of fath. If a bunch of people hear you say something that is still not something taken on faith, just because they didn't see the sound.

Anyway, wind is a perfect example of something that can be demonstrated (even visually) because it's a process that affects other objects. You can see the effect of wind when it blows leaves. Besides that you can hear it and feel it. Our explenations for wind come from an understanding of air currents amongst other things, but we don't have to take the existence of wind on faith. Same goes for gravity and evolution. We've built our model of reality by taking the consensus of what our different senses suggest us and going from there to find explanations for our observations, which we then continue to test against new observations. Science doesn't require faith, it demonstrates.

As to people experiencing god doing things to them, that always seems to be an indirect inference. People have a feeling, found something on a significant date or had some experience that can be framed into a religious allegory. However the phenomena of a creator god cannot be experienced. Besides that an experience with god is necissarily personal and to anyone else it's no more than hearsay. We already know people can easily be tricked visually and mentally by stage magicians and the like, so hearsay isn't good enough evidence.

I have never been depressed, so I can't judge people who have been and found hope in a god, but hope can be derived from falsehoods in equal amounts as it can be from truths, Depression is a vulnerable state though that too many are eager to exploit, so anything that appears to aim for that angle is treated with suspect from me.




Everyone believes in something, even if it is only that they believe that they are correct and Christianity and religion is wrong.


there's lots of things I believe to be true (tentatively) and there are people I trust to the extent that they've shown to be trustworthy. Under your definition of faith (and mine coincidentally) I don't have faith in anything.
It was YOU who defined the word faith remember, here I'll paste it again. Faith: The substance of things hoped for the evidence of things ot seen.

That's different from believing because of evidence based reasoning. Don't go playing word games after you've already submitted the definition of a word you're using.


I'm not playing word games, a lot of things are not seen but accepted as universal truth. What someone is saying and what you get out of it isn't necessarily the same thing all the time. You're wrong and now you're getting upset. because you stated earlier that it''s paralyzing to believe in something and the fact that you're upset and arguing proves that you do believe if nothing else that you're correct in your assumptions.
The wind is there and you can feel it. But simply because where I am I don't feel the air doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't here. even when the wind has died down it doesn't mean wind isn't someplace else.
A few years ago aliens and another planet like ours were only in the movies and no one believed it. Just like they believed the world was flat. Now there is proof that there is another planet. Simply because you didn't see it a few years ago doesn't mean it wasn't real back then because of the lack of scientific technology..
In order to feel God's presence you have to first believe and that would be the proof some state they need. Jesus said this and I know it's true, "Thomas, you believe me because you see me but blessed are those who believe and do not see."
Simply because you can't see a thing doesn't make it any less real. You and I can only go on what we believe is true. We won't know who is the correct one until Christ returns.


That first bit was a little incoherent. I think what you're saying is that I believe that my assumptions are correct? Well duh, otherwise I would reject them and stop using them as assumptions. It happens from time to time that I discover assumptions I'm making that I no longer feel justified in assuming and then I reject them. That's critical thinking in action. Also it's not paralysing to believe in something, I'll try to explain again.

if you believe everything will work itself out without your intervention in the afterlife, then yes that'll make you less likely to intervene in this life (as in it paralyzes you from doing things you would've otherwise done) . Given that this is the only life we know we'll have, as well as that all the evidence in neuroscience points to our conciousness being the emergent property of the brain, I'm going to make everything of this life that I can and it makes the suffering of others more morally problematic, because they're not going to get a second chance at this.

You know air is there because it fits the best model of reality you currently have that was constructed using the evidence at hand and tested over and over again. You don't have faith that air exsits, it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion even when at this point in time you're not actively experiencing it (though you are if you're breathing, which I think I can fairly assume you are).

But yes, it can in fact be that things exist that you don't know of yet and of which there is of now not sufficient evidence to believe. Guess what, then you're not rationally justified to believe that until the moment sufficient evidence is presented. Refraining from belief when insufficient evidence is presented is the rational way to avoid believing things for bad reasons. There are a bunch of god claims out there that all haven't met their burden of proof. You reject the vast majority of them, I just happen to reject one more than you do.

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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13
Damn, so long, our arguments can be stated in one sentence, jeez tl;dr
Posted 4/29/13

pandrasb wrote:

Damn, so long, our arguments can be stated in one sentence, jeez tl;dr


Topics spanning thousands of years should be debated with single sentences.

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Posted 4/29/13

Ink-e wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

Damn, so long, our arguments can be stated in one sentence, jeez tl;dr


Topics spanning thousands of years should be debated with single sentences.



Makes life easier, lol topics

The question asked was, are you religious? if so, why?

That's it, 2 questions, then someone questions your why over and over

and "because I want to" isn't a valid reason... wth
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Posted 4/29/13

pandrasb wrote:


Ink-e wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

Damn, so long, our arguments can be stated in one sentence, jeez tl;dr


Topics spanning thousands of years should be debated with single sentences.



Makes life easier, lol topics

The question asked was, are you religious? if so, why?

That's it, 2 questions, then someone questions your why over and over

and "because I want to" isn't a valid reason... wth


it's not to someone who cares if their beliefs are true or at least likelyy to be true.
I'm not religious because no religion or god claim has met it's burden of proof. See, one sentence, I can do it too. It's not all that impressive.

If you don't care about religious arguments, that's your perogative. I find them entertaining enough to keep posting and I like going through what people say in detail.

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Posted 4/29/13
First off, I respect views of all sorts, regardless if you're religious or not. So I really never thought anything bad of religion, except for things like 'God hates gays' and crap like that. I wouldn't consider myself religious, but I have gone to church a couple times recently (the first times I've ever gone) and honestly it was completely life changing.
Yes, there are some things I still don't agree with, but honestly it's changed my perspective on some things. I really do suggest that you give it a chance rather than judge it by what others say. You don't truly know it until you experience it yourself.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13
No, I am not religious. But I did have to go through the motions when I was younger. Religion has caused more death throughout history then anything else, therefore its unworthy of my blind faith.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13

sharkjack wrote:

Given that this is the only life we know we'll have, as well as that all the evidence in neuroscience points to our conciousness being the emergent property of the brain

But yes, it can in fact be that things exist that you don't know of yet and of which there is of now not sufficient evidence to believe. Guess what, then you're not rationally justified to believe that until the moment sufficient evidence is presented. Refraining from belief when insufficient evidence is presented is the rational way to avoid believing things for bad reasons.


Hmm, are u familiar with the work of Dr. Pim van Lommel? He is a renowned cardiologist who's done quite a bit of research on consciousness & near-death experiences from hundreds of heart patients that all clinically died by cardiac arrest. He proposes the concept of non-locality: a dimension where there is no time and no space. Basically, he's saying the brain contains consciousness, but the brain does not produce consciousness.

If you're interested (or anyone else is), there's a 2 part interview-video on this on Youtube. It's interesting stuff.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YOeLJCdHojU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wFxc67bLrW0#!

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Posted 4/30/13
I am agnostic because I do not know what to believe...
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Posted 4/30/13
I am an atheist.
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Posted 4/30/13
I'm religious and my religion specifically teaches us that we should mind our own business. Basically, we believe what we want and everyone else can believe what they want. You wanna join our religion, great. If you don't, good for you. Whatever floats your boat. Just stop bashing others for their beliefs.
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