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Post Reply are you religious? if so, why?
Posted 5/12/13

chase6565 wrote:

I think we all just need to love each other, accept and appreciate that we all believe in something different, and YOLOOOOOO ( or carpe diem for you older folk).
This would only be possible of the religious were capable of keeping their beliefs to themselves. The can't, however.

We should be, as the religious would say, offended that huxters profit from lying to children; what a profession. We should be offended that the religious zealots in this country and trying to have pseudo-science taught in schools. And we should be offended that civil society is threatened by adults who believe their morality is absolute and their bigotry divine.

The notion "we should all just love each other" is silly. The absurd premise of compulsory love withstanding, one of the reasons I dislike christianity is the "love your enemies" nonsense. Love your own damn enemies; I won't be loving my enemies, I want to destroy my enemies.
Posted 5/12/13 , edited 5/12/13


So you don't think we should, as they say, 'just try to all get along' then?
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Posted 5/12/13
To answer the question of how I jumped from deist position to theist position, I believe that God rarely interacts with humanity, but I do believe he does at certain key points. When I said ¨how do you feel?¨ I did not mean to instill fear, but rather, how does the moment of feeling the love of this being, existing on a plain which humanity cannot understand, feel. As to the issue of compulsory love, we are given thought processes, and exist on Earth, having a choice to love Him or not. It is written, through the Prophet Mohammed, that humans will not believe what is not proven to them.
Posted 5/12/13 , edited 5/12/13

chase6565 wrote:



So you don't think we should, as they say, 'just try to all get along then'?
No. The beliefs of the religions have stifled humanistic progress and all points in history and, do to their nature, will continue to do so. Rationalism and religious beliefs cannot coexist; one religion cannot even coexist with another for that matter.

Religion was our first attempt at morality, philosophy, and even medicine. It was our first, and it was our worst. Those who cling to this archaic system of absolute morality undermine humanistic progress and are enemies of civil society. Immanuel Kant put it pretty well in the Categorical Imperative: what if everyone committed adultery? What if no one did? This logic can be expanded to all moral decisions. Do you believe the world would be better if everyone was religious? What if no one was? Indeed, a similar argument made by the late Christopher Hitchens frames it pretty well: What's one moral action that a religious person could do that a non-believer could not do? Now, while you're thinking about that, what is one immoral action that a religious person would commit that a non-believer wouldn't even contemplate.

We cannot all get along, unfortunately. The often repeated, "everyone is entitled to believe what they believe" / "we should just love everyone for who they are." ignores the reality of the situation: religion poisons everything. Religion should be treated with ridicule and contempt and I claim that right.

Besides, why would anyone want to get along with liars and hucksters? C'mon now. The removal of the sacrosanct symbolism of religion uncovers atrocities.

EDIT: (to consolidate replies)

minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

To answer the question of how I jumped from deist position to theist position, I believe that God rarely interacts with humanity, but I do believe he does at certain key points. When I said ¨how do you feel?¨ I did not mean to instill fear, but rather, how does the moment of feeling the love of this being, existing on a plain which humanity cannot understand, feel. As to the issue of compulsory love, we are given thought processes, and exist on Earth, having a choice to love Him or not. It is written, through the Prophet Mohammed, that humans will not believe what is not proven to them.
I would be weary, though the occasional bout of wisdom from [REDACTED - unnecessarily rude; strident] Mohammed may seem interesting, you must not forget that in the Hadith it says: If a person is a Muslim, and no longer wishes to be a Muslim, you must kill him. That's no uncertain terms, it's no metaphor, that's what it says.

I belief that god interacts at key points in human history, while I cannot disprove that, I will say you'd be hard pressed to prove it either. We're at an impasse, I value the observable and measurable, you have faith.

I would contend, however, that still the shift from the deist position to the theist position is impossible. To claim that you know god exists is one thing, to claim that you know his will is another. But suppose even that were true. Do you really wish it to be true? Do you really want a celestial dictator who cares about what days you work on? Who you sleep with and in what position? The complete improbability withstanding, the will for that even to be true is baffling.
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Posted 5/12/13

Ember_McLain wrote:


minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

I'm religious. After much thought and research, studying of various theories, beliefs, and ideals, I came to one conclusion. That would be that God most certainly does exist, and created all. I'm officially Christian, but I believe very much in the Qu'ran. imagine, if you will, how you would feel if someone with infinite power and love exists, he created you and you denied and may have even may have made joke about Him. Then, for the first time, you feel the extent of His Almighty power. How do you feel?
I'm curious; my interest piqued, what evidence do you have that I, and everyone else, does not have available that leads to unwavering certainly to the existence of a celestial dictator? Not only that, but you claim you're a christian. Please explain how you managed to jump from the deist position to the theist position when, in point of fact, great christian philosophers like Aquinas couldn't even argue that.

Additionally, do explain the thought process implicit in your statement "How do you feel?" I very much do not wish that, when I die, to go to a celestial North Korea where all I do is praise dear leader from dawn to dusk. Does the idea of compulsory love not strike you as a bit odd? To love someone you have to fear? The essence of the master-slave relation, the essence of sadomasochism?

I will say, because I fully anticipate the response, that I cannot prove god doesn't exist. There's no way even I can be 100% certain. If Jesus Christ ascended from the heavens at the next super bowl halftime show I would say, "well look at that I was wrong." Nevertheless, it is somewhat confusing that the converse is untrue and the religious will claim equally that lack of evidence is certainty. Not only to know god exists, but to know his will; the only way to make that logical leap is to claim to know things one cannot possibly know.


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Posted 5/12/13

minatothegreatjiraiya wrote:

To answer the question of how I jumped from deist position to theist position, I believe that God rarely interacts with humanity, but I do believe he does at certain key points. When I said ¨how do you feel?¨ I did not mean to instill fear, but rather, how does the moment of feeling the love of this being, existing on a plain which humanity cannot understand, feel. As to the issue of compulsory love, we are given thought processes, and exist on Earth, having a choice to love Him or not. It is written, through the Prophet Mohammed, that humans will not believe what is not proven to them.


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Posted 5/12/13
I apologize for realizing just a moment ago how to quote others.
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Posted 5/12/13

spacebat wrote:




He seems to think to accept science is to disbelieve in god. :happy:
I am totally fine with him making brazen statements about me dis-beliefing in a higher power. let him.



Wait me or him??
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Posted 5/12/13 , edited 5/12/13
Most scientists would agree that time is infinite, exists in a dimension that is entangled with our own. It is with time that all things came to be. How would most describe God? A being which is infinite, exists in a plain that is, at times at least, entangled with our own, and it is with God that all things came to be. There are striking similarities, so why is it that so many can't seem to believe in God, yet most certainly believe in time, both omniscient and ever-lasting?
Posted 5/12/13

Ember_McLain wrote:


chase6565 wrote:



So you don't think we should, as they say, 'just try to all get along then'?
No. The beliefs of the religions have stifled humanistic progress and all points in history and, do to their nature, will continue to do so. Rationalism and religious beliefs cannot coexist; one religion cannot even coexist with another for that matter.

Religion was our first attempt at morality, philosophy, and even medicine. It was our first, and it was our worst. Those who cling to this archaic system of absolute morality undermine humanistic progress and are enemies of civil society. Immanuel Kant put it pretty well in the Categorical Imperative: what if everyone committed adultery? What if no one did? This logic can be expanded to all moral decisions. Do you believe the world would be better if everyone was religious? What if no one was? Indeed, a similar argument made by the late Christopher Hitchens frames it pretty well: What's one moral action that a religious person could do that a non-believer could not do? Now, while you're thinking about that, what is one immoral action that a religious person would commit that a non-believer wouldn't even contemplate.

We cannot all get along, unfortunately. The often repeated, "everyone is entitled to believe what they believe" / "we should just love everyone for who they are." ignores the reality of the situation: religion poisons everything. Religion should be treated with ridicule and contempt and I claim that right.

Besides, why would anyone want to get along with liars and hucksters? C'mon now. The removal of the sacrosanct symbolism of religion uncovers atrocities.



I see. Thank you for the input.

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Posted 5/12/13 , edited 5/12/13

Ember_McLain wrote:

Nuclearspy, your bizarre stylist mannerisms withstanding, lacing your responses with insults has compelled myself to intervene. Before I began, I think it is worth mentioning, for full disclosure, that I am completely under the impression you are trolling but I feel putting the issue to rest as the points you bring up are still believed by many of the religious.



Not trolling. Just making it clear when a theory of knowledge is irrational. If theres anything I hate more then anything its when people make irrational statements claiming its rational.


Ember_McLain wrote:Claiming Newton believed in god is somewhat misleading. He mainly referred to god in a pantothenic sense [1][2]. Nevertheless, he was indeed a christian -- a result of the times he lived in most certainly. I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything. Newton, Descartes, and Galileo were also all white. Does this necessarily have meaning?


No, its not misleading. He was a Christian and its a well known fact.

You compelled yourself to intervine yet, you don't know what we were talking about? Spacebat specifically cited Newton (you know, that guy who discovered the laws of this thing called gravity?) who is a Mathematician and Philosopher.

Its not WHO Newton is. Its what does Newton believe, and WHY DO YOU BELIEVE in Newton's laws of gravity? Newton believes that mathematics EXISTS. A scientist DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY OR AN RATIONAL ARGUMENT for the existence of Mathematics. Are you following this?

-


Ember_McLain wrote:
It is hard to prove the nonexistence of something.


No it is NOT! Are you actually endorsing this?

There are no muslims in the united states senate
There are no triangles with 8 sides
There is not a computer in my living room
There is not an alien lifeform in my refrigerator
Would you like me to keep going?


Ember_McLain wrote:
Especially in cases where the lack of evidence is claimed as, not only evidence, but irrefutable proof to the contrary. But while the the deist is occupied by many great thinkers, it is the theist position that is most widely occupied and, ultimately, the least probable. Not even Aquinas tried to prove the theist position, despite himself being a christian.


You've pretty much lost any credibility of knowledge in one swoop right here. Thomas Aquinas was an Aristotelean philosopher (Classic empiricism) in the Medieval era. Aristotle's theories have absolutely no impact on the philosophy of rational realism. Useful in other ways? Absolutely.

Besides, Thomas Aquinas has a pretty good proof for the existence of God anyway. Google the unmoved mover. I could handle his arguments and tell him why he is wrong RATIONALLY. You however, are stuck until you recognize that the only RATIONAL arguments for existence with dualistic philosophy. However, thats a deadly position for an atheist to hold.


Ember_McLain wrote:
Bringing into the fold a discussion on the theory of knowledge is baffling, Nuclearspy. If you were so familiar with it you'd realize what nearly every freshman philosophy class will tell you: There's inductive and deductive reasoning -- humans, pragmatic reductionists -- generally favor strong and weak arguments. And it can be seen that the belief in god, and even agnosticism for that matter, ignores the sheer improbability of the situation.


Uh, no. How did you get to probability? This has got to be the worst statement you've made because I love reduction. You're going to try to backpedal your way out of this one because you're out of your league.
Humans have intuitive knowledge, sir. A foundation on which to build knowledge about the world. You interested?

Arguing from ignorance isn't rational. Arguing that something doesn't exist requires you to have proof that it does not, otherwise, you are irrational. Might want to go back to philosophy class, chap.
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Posted 5/12/13
Wow amigo that is a very disappointing story to hear as I am a Christian myself. I'd have to say that the people that you are talking too have no idea what real Christianity is about and do not have a biblical world view. I see this all of the time and it makes me pretty sad. Just for a little background info since your a man of science. I am also one whom I consider a follower of logic and I happen to be a biology major in my junior year of college. So I happen to have quite a bit of "science" knowledge in me if i do say so myself. As to why I am a religious I have to say look around you amigo and the wonderful amazing world you live in. Look at the complexity of the different species and the amazing things we have learned about the universe in general. There is no way that they could be random! There is this little thing called irreducible complexity out there that happens to blow the only other theory for our existence out of the water. It simply states that if evolution were to exist as a means of creation there is no way that life this complex would exist. There are far to many evolutionary changes that would have to take place to ever make what we are. So many in fact that we would be dead without any small little thing being out of place in our chemistry. Not to get all intense on ya but I wish you would look at it from a different point of view. I too was like you until I really started to study things and become more knowledgeable about the world. There is just no possible way even mathematically that we are here just by some whim. Sit back and really contemplate your existance and the complexity that is to be found around you. Don't just go with the flow and carelessly believe what everyone else has to tell you. The truth is always out there and it can be found! Use true logic as your guide and don't discount the obvious!
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Posted 5/12/13 , edited 5/12/13
Why I am religious supported by Three Quotes:

One
“People are often unreasonable and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
If you are honest, people may cheat you. Be honest anyway.
If you find happiness, people may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have and it may never be enough. Give your best anyway.
For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.”
― Mother Teresa

Two
“A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

Three
“If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC”
― Kurt Vonnegut
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Posted 5/12/13
I believe in God, & Jesus Christ. Although I do not refer to myself as a Christian, because I believe a lot of people use this title to do whatever they want and then justify it by saying that they are Christians. Jesus Christ was against hypocrisy. But they that call themselves Christians tend to be all about hypocrisy. In regards to the many that call themselves Atheist, I find them to be way more understanding than the people who call themselves Christians. Why? Because they tend to actually observe and examine things to determine what is true, rather than judge and condemn (not saying that there aren't Atheist who aren't just as harsh). But from everything that I've read & understand about Jesus Christ, he encouraged searching and observing to determine the truth. Nor do I believe you can "choose" to believe in something. Either you believe or you don't. The better you understand the more inclined you are to believe it, it has nothing to do with choice. The reason so many except science is because its something they can understand. God on the other hand is hard to believe in because people lack the knowledge to understand him. Not because the knowledge isn't there. But because many have yet to learn of Christ.
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Posted 5/12/13
To: Ember_McLain

I would like to, perhaps erroneously, compare God to the watcher of a nature documentary. Some people watch such things with great pleasure, and some even go into the places they see in these documentaries and interact with the wildlife. However, for some nature documentaries, the camera is on all day. It observes the patterns of the animals, the mating rituals, what it does to survive, etc. It sees everything the animal does.But, the humans are alright with that, either due to the belief of people that they are greater than such animals, or curiosity. Though I suppose that is more like scientific investigation into the behavioral patterns of various animals than a documentary.
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