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Post Reply are you religious? if so, why?
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

VeniVidiVici- wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, let me modify that sentence a bit!!!
Let people believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone. That's what's important. Got too many extremists these days not understanding that.
It's scary :(


I'd have much less of a problem with organized religion if its proponents would stop trying to undermine the separation of church and state, and stop trying to force their particular moral code and worldview on those of us who would otherwise be quite happy to live and let live. Despite the claims of some people who lack an understanding of the Establishment Clause, their phrase "It''s freedom OF religion, it's not freedom FROM religion." is completely wrong. It is BOTH freedom OF religion, and freedom FROM religion. The whole point of that clause is to prevent the tyranny of one religion dominating all others as law, which is precisely the reason Christians throw shitfits over Sharia Law. But yet the same people who throw shitfits over Sharia Law would also claim that America is a Christian Nation, and that we should live in a theocracy...the hypocrisy here is astounding. It's also the reason for the Establishment Clause, and people need to stop trying to shit all over the Establishment Clause just to push their religious agenda on the rest of us.

I'm also not the only one standing up for what we don't believe in, here.



Also, this targeting of 4-14 year old kids in public schools (the "Good News" clubs I mentioned earlier in the thread) has to stop as well. They're targeting kids that young, specifically because they know that they're too young to form their own opinions. But they're also indirectly encouraging the bullying of other kids in the process. The picture above shows the largest part of the curriculum, the emphasis on blind obedience to authority. They don't want kids forming their own opinions. They want the kids to be sheep to be led around, to become the future warriors in a supposedly inevitable culture war.

The phrase, "You're not a Christian, so you're going to Hell.", is not something kids that young should be saying to each other, because they lack any tangible understanding of what it even means, or how hurtful those words can be. It's just fostering judgmental attitudes, and entrenching people further in blind obedience. Also, the hypocrisy of these people would be self-evident, if it were a non-Christian (in their eyes) religion setting up shop in over 3000 public schools, with no legal recourse to stop them from proselytizing. Yeah, let's go there: What if the religion were Muslim? Or Catholic? Mormon? Hindu? Or any other, for that matter...would these same Christians be so willing to accept it? I highly doubt it. But it's just fine, as long as they're the only ones doing it.

A better example of this culture of bullying would be of the kids who grew up and left the Westboro Baptist Church. Yeah, they're the most hated family in America, and they raise the kids in that culture of hate...but they convince the kids that they're doing the right thing, and the kids hear that propaganda often enough that they believe it. The kids don't even understand WHY they're so hated. It's not until they start doubting the message and leave, that they come to understand why their family is so reviled by most of the world.
sinnad 
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Posted 5/13/13
you are religious because you don't want to go to hell??? this is one reason I don't take religion seriously!
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

Nuclearspy wrote:


TAO_Arecibo wrote:

Went to the Wikipedia article. Couldn't convince me, sorry =p.


So, essentially, your argument assumes time exists necessarily. As in, time has always existed.


Yes, but only because of the definition of time.


How is this any different then a theist saying that God has always existed?


It's because saying 'God didn't exist' doesn't create a logical contradiction, whereas saying 'time didn't exist' does. In any case, I am, actually a theist.


Saying time exists is a pretty deadly statement for the atheist. So, I'll go ahead and ask. WHERE does time exist?


Time isn't an actual physical concept, as far as I am aware. But it definitely refers to infinity... that is... things go on backwards forever, and go forwards forever.


In regards to the infinite argument. Heres a youtube video. Maybe you do better with visual learning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faQBrAQ87l4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


This is actually a problem which is related to in Calculus, but it's pretty easy to get around. You see, you approach infinity squared faster than you approach infinity. The problem is that the video doesn't refer to whether the 'infinite number of rooms' refers to infinity squared, or infinity, and since putting in guests at an non-finite rate (the only way possible), naturally means approaching (in other words, limits), you can't tell if it's actually possible or not.

So no, I don't think this disproves infinity. It technically still has powers, even though they are not shown.
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

VeniVidiVici- wrote:


TAO_Arecibo wrote:


furytime wrote:

What is going on in this thread. I see a big argument. Let people believe in what they believe in.


People are asking if the pie is a lie. After all, the cake is an old topic.

But yeah, it's a big argument =p. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the way things work concerning hot topics, I guess.


Whoa whoa whoa, let me modify that sentence a bit!!!
Let people believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone. That's what's important. Got too many extremists these days not understanding that.
It's scary :(


Well let me ask you a question really quickly. What is harm?

You'll probably say one of many commonly accepted social definitions, but are those undeniable definitions, impossible to say otherwise? Not at all.

You see, what you consider harm, isn't necessarily considered harm by others. This is why you have to be a self-interested actor, so to say. Even if it means that you aren't being exactly fair. ;-).

Of course, I don't want to let extremists harm me either. I'm definitely being self-interested =).

Sorry, just having a bit of fun here.
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Posted 5/13/13

TAO_Arecibo wrote:


VeniVidiVici- wrote:


TAO_Arecibo wrote:


furytime wrote:

What is going on in this thread. I see a big argument. Let people believe in what they believe in.


People are asking if the pie is a lie. After all, the cake is an old topic.

But yeah, it's a big argument =p. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the way things work concerning hot topics, I guess.


Whoa whoa whoa, let me modify that sentence a bit!!!
Let people believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn't harm anyone. That's what's important. Got too many extremists these days not understanding that.
It's scary :(


Well let me ask you a question really quickly. What is harm?

You'll probably say one of many commonly accepted social definitions, but are those undeniable definitions, impossible to say otherwise? Not at all.

You see, what you consider harm, isn't necessarily considered harm by others. This is why you have to be a self-interested actor, so to say. Even if it means that you aren't being exactly fair. ;-).

Of course, I don't want to let extremists harm me either. I'm definitely being self-interested =).

Sorry, just having a bit of fun here.


Wait, so you understand what I mean but I don't understand what you mean. Tell me other types of harm others may consider that I won't.
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Posted 5/13/13
I'm officially Roman Catholic. I say officially because that's what the paperwork says... You know Baptism, Confirmation papers etc etc. I really haven't been practicing my faith at all, lately. So I wouldn't say I'm religious... I'm just living life to the fullest right now my own way...
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

TAO_Arecibo wrote:
Yes, but only because of the definition of time.


What about the definition time? What is it about the definition of time that tells you that time exists necessarily?


TAO_Arecibo wrote:It's because saying 'God didn't exist' doesn't create a logical contradiction, whereas saying 'time didn't exist' does. In any case, I am, actually a theist.


Uh, you must have a pretty strange theology because saying "God does not exist" is infact a contradiction.
God, as it is in our understanding is a being that is MAXIMALLY GREAT and PERFECT IN EVERY SINGLE WAY
It would be a flaw and imperfection to not exist
So, saying "God does not exist" is a contradiction
So, you're saying God is not God. Thats a contradiction.

You must not believe in the judeo christian God then. You must be a polytheist or something of that sort, correct?


TAO_Arecibo wrote:Time isn't an actual physical concept, as far as I am aware. But it definitely refers to infinity... that is... things go on backwards forever, and go forwards forever.


You're correct in saying that time is non-spatial. However, you're understanding of how time exists is very flawed. You're essentially saying that time co-exists with the "god" you speak of. In otherwords, your "god" lacks Aseity, which is a flawed attribute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseity

By contrast, the Judeo-Christian God wholly transcends spacetime and does not share its glory with anything else because it wouldn't be perfect or maximally great. i.e. Not God


TAO_Arecibo wrote:This is actually a problem which is related to in Calculus, but it's pretty easy to get around. You see, you approach infinity squared faster than you approach infinity. The problem is that the video doesn't refer to whether the 'infinite number of rooms' refers to infinity squared, or infinity, and since putting in guests at an non-finite rate (the only way possible), naturally means approaching (in other words, limits), you can't tell if it's actually possible or not.

So no, I don't think this disproves infinity. It technically still has powers, even though they are not shown.


What the video is showing you is that ACTUAL infinite sets don't obey the rules of arithmetic, and have all kinds of absurdities.

What you seem to be confused about is the difference between POTENTIAL infinity (transfinite sets) vs ACTUAL infinity
POTENTIAL infinites are not ACTUALLY infinite, but rather they are finite. You need to look this up because you are severely confused.
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Posted 5/13/13

VeniVidiVici- wrote:


TAO_Arecibo wrote:
Well let me ask you a question really quickly. What is harm?

You'll probably say one of many commonly accepted social definitions, but are those undeniable definitions, impossible to say otherwise? Not at all.

You see, what you consider harm, isn't necessarily considered harm by others. This is why you have to be a self-interested actor, so to say. Even if it means that you aren't being exactly fair. ;-).

Of course, I don't want to let extremists harm me either. I'm definitely being self-interested =).

Sorry, just having a bit of fun here.


Wait, so you understand what I mean but I don't understand what you mean. Tell me other types of harm others may consider that I won't.


Well, pick a concept you find reprehensible. For instance, pedophilia. Chances are there are some pedophiles who don't consider their actions harmful. In other words, there isn't universal agreement on what is harmful. There is no undeniable definition.

On the other hand though, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't oppose pedophilia. You simply have to realize that people may disagree with you. You probably should stay self-interested and keep opposing it, if you know what I mean.
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Posted 5/13/13

Nuclearspy wrote:
What about the definition time? What is it about the definition of time that tells you that time exists necessarily?


Well, that's kind why I said if we define 'time' as 'anything changing'. Generally, time is considered the property of things changing. The difficulty is that something that is at complete rest can't start moving for no reason at all. In other words, the universe can't go from a state of no time (complete rest) to time existence (things change). There always has to be something moving. If you look at it carefully, you'll realize this doesn't contradict the idea of a God, it simply shows that infinity exists (albight in a very roundabout way).


Uh, you must have a pretty strange theology because saying "God does not exist" is infact a contradiction.
God, as it is in our understanding is a being that is MAXIMALLY GREAT and PERFECT IN EVERY SINGLE WAY
It would be a flaw and imperfection to not exist
So, saying "God does not exist" is a contradiction
So, you're saying God is not God. Thats a contradiction.


I don't define God in the same way you do. I do think God can grow in greatness (that's part of the reason we are here on Earth, because we are his work and glory), although I do think he is perfectly knowledgeable. In other words, my God is not 'maximally great'. Otherwise he'd have no reason to act. Rather, I believe in a God that has a reason to do things, and that is to bring his children, and through his children, himself, happiness.


You must not believe in the judeo christian God then.


I definitely am not the most Orthodox in terms of Christianity.


You must be a polytheist or something of that sort, correct?


In terms of Trinitarianism, I think Christ and Heavenly Father are separate beings but united in purpose. You could consider that polytheistic or monotheistic, it doesn't particularly matter to me, I guess =p.


You're correct in saying that time is non-spatial. However, you're understanding of how time exists is very flawed. You're essentially saying that time co-exists with the "god" you speak of.


Yes, I am saying this.


In otherwords, your "god" lacks Aseity, which is a flawed attribute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseity


I don't believe in an aseitic God. Technically, I also don't believe in creation ex nihlo either. I believe in a God that organized the universe as we see it. Organized, rather than created from nothing.


By contrast, the Judeo-Christian God wholly transcends spacetime and does not share its glory with anything else because it wouldn't be perfect or maximally great. i.e. Not God


In your perspective. I disagree.


What the video is showing you is that ACTUAL infinite sets don't obey the rules of arithmetic, and have all kinds of absurdities.


Of course they do. Infinities have their own math system, just like matrices. You have to take that into account when using them; traditional arithmetic doesn't apply.


What you seem to be confused about is the difference between POTENTIAL infinity (transfinite sets) vs ACTUAL infinity
POTENTIAL infinites are not ACTUALLY infinite, but rather they are finite. You need to look this up because you are severely confused.


I looked it up, and it's the differences between a physical number and a limit. As I pointed out, this is a limit.
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Posted 5/13/13

sinnad wrote:

you are religious because you don't want to go to hell??? this is one reason I don't take religion seriously!


You always see people using that as an argument to believe, but that is the wrong reason. You should believe out of love and sincere faith in Him.
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

VeniVidiVici- [link url="/forumtopic-771939/are-you-religious-if-so-why?fpid=43156699" title="View quoted

Wait me or him??


Him, I got nothin' but bro luv for ya man.
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Posted 5/13/13 , edited 5/13/13

Mohini wrote:


Why do you have to call him an idiot? Is it because you don't have a legitimate argument? All Atheist resort to name called because they have lost the debate. If you are not aware, Atheism is also a belief system which is another way of calling religion.



That's nice... Could you please state where I had mentioned I was an atheist anywhere in this thread?

If you can I'll be the first to vouch for your reading comprehension skills...

And I never said he was an idiot. I said Veni was not one...
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Posted 5/13/13
I can understand that some people may dislike religion. Some people have, in the past, used it to gain power or for destructive purposes. But, this religion is formed by man, for man, taking only pieces of their Holy Book and making up many rituals and other things. But this is no reason to not believe in God. I understand that, for some people, having something that transcends all natural laws they have lived their lives with is difficult to believe. If a ventriloquist doll started to talk on its own, people would probably destroy it, unless it is a child. Children do not know what the ¨rules¨ of the Universe are yet, meaning they believe what they experience. Children, as a result, are often targeted by religions to be told what they should believe.Later in life, they can look back at their choices. But, a person later in life may have ´come to terms´with the nature of the world around them, and find it harder to believe. But, if we open up our minds a bit, and think that maybe, just maybe, we are not as great as we think we are, we may come to the truth of the Lord's existence.
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Posted 5/13/13

Mohini wrote:

To put it simply, God is Everything and Everyone AllA the time.


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