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Is it ok to watch an Anime that's not available to watch legally?
GJz 
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Posted 10/4/12
If the companies do not want my money by giving their content available here by money, then I'll take it without paying. Their choice.
Posted 10/4/12
i have money but i will never spend money on what i think should be free also as some1 else pointed out what if they dont sell the anime any more then your only option is to watch illegally
mrmkl 
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Posted 10/4/12

endotropic420 wrote:

i have money but i will never spend money on what i think should be free also as some1 else pointed out what if they dont sell the anime any more then your only option is to watch illegally


you actually have another option, though its not one many people want to exercise. Don't watch it.

My issue here is you seem to think that anime "should be free" ... but why? Why should the time and effort others put into something you hold dear not deserve compensation. Is anime of no value to you? is it simply a sense of entitlement?


Im not strictly against fansubbing or even piracy in general, I know that i and others have been exposed to artists, musicians and writers who we would never have seen if not for these things. And we then go on to support them by importing cds dvds and even travelling to see live performances. Fansubbing is not inherently evil. But many would use legit rationalizations (and lets all admit, its a rationalization. not a true justification. Technically, if its Illegal, we should deal with it) when they have no intent on spending money on a favourite passtime. and that hurts us all. Credit where credit is due and all that....
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Posted 10/4/12
Who care watch it anyway u can
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Posted 10/4/12
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking what the ethical implications are? Are you asking for support to do something you think is ethically questionable? Fansubs or pirating are illegal. Rationalizing reasons to watch fansubs doesn't make it right. If you feel guilty, don't do it. If you don't feel guilty, screw the ethics and watch it. Just don't rationalize reasons to break the law or ask others opinions on what is ultimately your decision.
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Posted 10/4/12
I'd like to point out to several comments already made that several anime, mostly old school, are completely legal to stream no matter the source, no american company holds license and japan just don't give a rats pa-tootie.
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Posted 10/4/12

TheAncientOne wrote:


pakola wrote:

I watch fansubs, everyone does.

I'm guessing you missed my message where I stated I quit watching fansubs in July 2010 (Note your message says "does", not "has").


my mistake oh great one. I guess I did miss it.
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Posted 10/4/12
If I had the money i'd have stacks of anime layering my room. But sadly, I do not. The only anime I ever got around to actually purchasing was Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind. (Although I might get Steins;Gate on blu ray when it comes out) I usually like to use Netflix and CR for my anime, but allot of the time, there is a series I really want to watch that isn't on either, not even Funimation has it. For instance, Shiki, I ended up watching it on otakucenter fansubbed, oh well. I don't think it's that bad to do, but I much prefer to do it the legal way.
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Posted 10/5/12

mrmkl wrote:


endotropic420 wrote:

i have money but i will never spend money on what i think should be free also as some1 else pointed out what if they dont sell the anime any more then your only option is to watch illegally


you actually have another option, though its not one many people want to exercise. Don't watch it.

My issue here is you seem to think that anime "should be free" ... but why? Why should the time and effort others put into something you hold dear not deserve compensation. Is anime of no value to you? is it simply a sense of entitlement?


Im not strictly against fansubbing or even piracy in general, I know that i and others have been exposed to artists, musicians and writers who we would never have seen if not for these things. And we then go on to support them by importing cds dvds and even travelling to see live performances. Fansubbing is not inherently evil. But many would use legit rationalizations (and lets all admit, its a rationalization. not a true justification. Technically, if its Illegal, we should deal with it) when they have no intent on spending money on a favourite passtime. and that hurts us all. Credit where credit is due and all that....


Remember though that technically....it IS free. Well, at least most of it is. Keep in mind most of the anime produced in the world, however highly you regard it or like it or dislike it, at the end of the day most of the "shows" out there are just that.....TV shows. And broadcast TV shows in Japan, like in most of the other developed countries in the world (and even some undeveloped ones) have always broadcast their content for free. The only reason most people outside of Japan don't get the content the same way they do inside Japan is because of the limited range of the broadcast signals (now theatrical movies and OVA's & the like are different, but that's a whole different issue of traditional distribution methods & such).

To release a DVD/BD or to allow streaming rights in any particular region, or heck even the decision to adopt the business model where most of the revenue made on such shows comes from DVD sales...these are simply business decisions, and business decisions come and go with the changing business landscape. Morals and ethics have nothing to do with it, and the only ones who think so are the ones who toss out words like "entitlement" and "rationalizing piracy" and such nonsense, and who try to treat any and all artistic media as just a simple commodity, and such thinking always leads to dangerous places.

Is it reasonable to expect people to support the industry by purchasing DVDs and watching it on legal streaming sites? If it's available to you and you have the means to do so then certainly it's reasonable. But it has nothing to do with morals and ethics. And if the content is NOT made available by legal means.....if the question is if it's OK to get it by other means....then of course it is. It's always the responsibility of the license holder to make their product available to their potential customer if they want to profit from it. As others have pointed out, if it's not available, then that's their fault.

Now I will add I understand we live in a quickly and constantly changing technological landscape, and it can be daunting for these studios and rights holders to keep up with the changing ways of distribution. But ultimately it is still their responsibility if they wan to profit from it.
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Posted 10/5/12

KaiserSosei wrote:

Remember though that technically....it IS free. Well, at least most of it is. Keep in mind most of the anime produced in the world, however highly you regard it or like it or dislike it, at the end of the day most of the "shows" out there are just that.....TV shows. And broadcast TV shows in Japan, like in most of the other developed countries in the world (and even some undeveloped ones) have always broadcast their content for free. The only reason most people outside of Japan don't get the content the same way they do inside Japan is because of the limited range of the broadcast signals (now theatrical movies and OVA's & the like are different, but that's a whole different issue of traditional distribution methods & such).


You are technically wrong with this statement, the station has to license the show and intends to make it's money back as well as profit by selling ad space before, after and during the show, thus the show isn't "free" in any sense of the word it just has a time cost to the viewer of the medium, similar to youtube of a free membership on CR.

As far as the main issue of the thread is concerned, if you can legally get the anime then you should do that over illegal means, but many anime are either unavailable outside of Japan, hell, most of the anime that is available out side of Japan are then restricted to the US/Canada. Basically, if there is a distribution problem that prevents you from watching anime then it could be argued that there isn't a problem with fan subs, but the problem comes from those people that have the means to legally watch anime who use the fan subs because they don't want to pay money for their entertainment (or use ad block to remove revenue on web streams).

The problem for the world seems to be one of distribution and profit, many of the small anime couldn't make a profit from sales or ad revenue so they aren't exported outside of Japan, and the big ones are taken by companies like CR and Funimation, who then have region restrictions in place, but it's very hard to find information on WHY there are these restrictions although it's probably a case of ancient contracts, monopolization and mega-profit.
But it's amazing that companies try to stop piracy by legal means when the answer is really quite simple (although difficult to implement), it's all a matter of service, if legal places offered better services than the fan subs/pirates, then no one would ever need to use an illegal method of watching thei8r entertainment.
But let's face it, so long as the system is designed to make more and more money for shareholders rather than provide a good service for their customers then we outside of Japan or America will just get screwed out of what we enjoy... all for useless profit.
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46 / M / Within the Empire...
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Posted 10/5/12

Coffeebot wrote:


KaiserSosei wrote:

Remember though that technically....it IS free. Well, at least most of it is. Keep in mind most of the anime produced in the world, however highly you regard it or like it or dislike it, at the end of the day most of the "shows" out there are just that.....TV shows. And broadcast TV shows in Japan, like in most of the other developed countries in the world (and even some undeveloped ones) have always broadcast their content for free. The only reason most people outside of Japan don't get the content the same way they do inside Japan is because of the limited range of the broadcast signals (now theatrical movies and OVA's & the like are different, but that's a whole different issue of traditional distribution methods & such).


You are technically wrong with this statement, the station has to license the show and intends to make it's money back as well as profit by selling ad space before, after and during the show, thus the show isn't "free" in any sense of the word it just has a time cost to the viewer of the medium, similar to youtube of a free membership on CR.

As far as the main issue of the thread is concerned, if you can legally get the anime then you should do that over illegal means, but many anime are either unavailable outside of Japan, hell, most of the anime that is available out side of Japan are then restricted to the US/Canada. Basically, if there is a distribution problem that prevents you from watching anime then it could be argued that there isn't a problem with fan subs, but the problem comes from those people that have the means to legally watch anime who use the fan subs because they don't want to pay money for their entertainment (or use ad block to remove revenue on web streams).

The problem for the world seems to be one of distribution and profit, many of the small anime couldn't make a profit from sales or ad revenue so they aren't exported outside of Japan, and the big ones are taken by companies like CR and Funimation, who then have region restrictions in place, but it's very hard to find information on WHY there are these restrictions although it's probably a case of ancient contracts, monopolization and mega-profit.
But it's amazing that companies try to stop piracy by legal means when the answer is really quite simple (although difficult to implement), it's all a matter of service, if legal places offered better services than the fan subs/pirates, then no one would ever need to use an illegal method of watching thei8r entertainment.
But let's face it, so long as the system is designed to make more and more money for shareholders rather than provide a good service for their customers then we outside of Japan or America will just get screwed out of what we enjoy... all for useless profit.


No I'm technically right. Commercial television (television supported by ads) is considered "free" television because it has no tangible cost to the consumer/viewer. If you take into account "time cost to the viewer", then pretty much nothing in existence is "free" in that sense. I took Intro to Communications in school and this was hammered home in that class.

But yeah the current system is set up to generate profit rather than expand culture. And lets not kid ourselves the profit potential is definitely there if a series sells well. A lot more profit potential to be made from sales of physical discs that from direct digital downloads from the studio, which is still probably many years away as the license holders are stubbornly sticking to the tried and true method of selling physical media because they think they can get more money that way. Problem with that business model is that they are competing against every other studio releasing their own product in pursuit of the limited pool of disposable income from their targeted audience/sales base. And every studio thinks their own product is better than everybody else's or at least better than some others. Better enough to generate their projected sales goals, whatever they may be. Not surprising, since all they're really doing is tapping in to people's natural desire to want to "own" a physical copy of the media, and there are of course plenty of takers for that. Now getting the price point to match the demand...especially across different business cultures, is proving to be a bit tricky.

Streaming, and expanding their markets for their shows associated merchandise is the wave of the future, but getting there is the problem, as we're still relatively unchartered territory in making this model to be as efficient as can be.
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Posted 10/5/12
People interested in this issue might be interested in these interviews

http://www.crunchyroll.com/cosplayers-the-movie

The first video is about conventions and cosplay, but videos 2-6 are interviews with people working in the industry. They discuss a variety of things, including the moral dilemma of fansubbing/illegal downloading.

I think it's important people recognise that their behaviour has consequences. If nobody contributes money to the industry, it won't be there for much longer. Not having the money is a very poor excuse. There are plenty of places like crunchyroll that offer anime for little or no cost in a legal way. A lot of fans in the past didn't have much money either. But they coughed up for the things that they wanted. There is no denying that fansubs have done a lot to bring anime to the rest of the word. However if you are going to watch them, I feel you still have an obligation to support the industry somehow, whether it be through purchasing the DVDs when they come out or buying merchandise.
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Posted 10/5/12
its not about morality at all since i bet most people will not pirate if they can afford anime or support anime financially anyway, if you think its cheap for you then its not cheap on really poor countries that has most of the numbers of pirates
mrmkl 
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Posted 10/5/12

KaiserSosei wrote:


mrmkl wrote:


endotropic420 wrote:

i have money but i will never spend money on what i think should be free also as some1 else pointed out what if they dont sell the anime any more then your only option is to watch illegally


you actually have another option, though its not one many people want to exercise. Don't watch it.

My issue here is you seem to think that anime "should be free" ... but why? Why should the time and effort others put into something you hold dear not deserve compensation. Is anime of no value to you? is it simply a sense of entitlement?


Im not strictly against fansubbing or even piracy in general, I know that i and others have been exposed to artists, musicians and writers who we would never have seen if not for these things. And we then go on to support them by importing cds dvds and even travelling to see live performances. Fansubbing is not inherently evil. But many would use legit rationalizations (and lets all admit, its a rationalization. not a true justification. Technically, if its Illegal, we should deal with it) when they have no intent on spending money on a favourite passtime. and that hurts us all. Credit where credit is due and all that....


Remember though that technically....it IS free. Well, at least most of it is. Keep in mind most of the anime produced in the world, however highly you regard it or like it or dislike it, at the end of the day most of the "shows" out there are just that.....TV shows. And broadcast TV shows in Japan, like in most of the other developed countries in the world (and even some undeveloped ones) have always broadcast their content for free. The only reason most people outside of Japan don't get the content the same way they do inside Japan is because of the limited range of the broadcast signals (now theatrical movies and OVA's & the like are different, but that's a whole different issue of traditional distribution methods & such).

To release a DVD/BD or to allow streaming rights in any particular region, or heck even the decision to adopt the business model where most of the revenue made on such shows comes from DVD sales...these are simply business decisions, and business decisions come and go with the changing business landscape. Morals and ethics have nothing to do with it, and the only ones who think so are the ones who toss out words like "entitlement" and "rationalizing piracy" and such nonsense, and who try to treat any and all artistic media as just a simple commodity, and such thinking always leads to dangerous places.

Is it reasonable to expect people to support the industry by purchasing DVDs and watching it on legal streaming sites? If it's available to you and you have the means to do so then certainly it's reasonable. But it has nothing to do with morals and ethics. And if the content is NOT made available by legal means.....if the question is if it's OK to get it by other means....then of course it is. It's always the responsibility of the license holder to make their product available to their potential customer if they want to profit from it. As others have pointed out, if it's not available, then that's their fault.

Now I will add I understand we live in a quickly and constantly changing technological landscape, and it can be daunting for these studios and rights holders to keep up with the changing ways of distribution. But ultimately it is still their responsibility if they wan to profit from it.


I like how you set up a lovely strawman, that you promptly take down. Damn shame Its not representative of what i have said.

I most certainly do not treat all artistic media as a simple commodity, but i do treat commercial media designed as a commodity as .... well... just that. Whether you like it or not, I havent decided that anime is a product to be sold, the creators have. If it was simply a matter of "art being free" then CR wouldnt have to get streaming licenses. I like how you just handwave away what people do for a living as unimportant.

And to dismiss me because i use the words rationalizing piracy, and entitlement is a damn shame. I used them appropriately. This whole thread is about rationalizing what is a circumvention of the creators rights. (once again, im not passing judgement either way, in my post i in fact said i can understand it) and i posted in reply to someone who said flat out. "I will not give them money, i shouldnt have to, but ill take it without permission or compensation" that screams entitlement to me.




finally... "and such nonsense, and who try to treat any and all artistic media as just a simple commodity, and such thinking always leads to dangerous places."

what kind of danger lies ahead? im genuinely curious. keeping in mind of course, that i did not make this claim, or hold this to be true. the truth is, art can be a personal expression, and a product to be sold. and really, thats what anime is. thats what movie and music and tv shows are. and to claim like the original poster i responded to did, that it should never be paid for, is a dangerous place if you ask me.
The Wise Wizard
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Posted 10/5/12

Davidvauhn wrote:
I usually like to use Netflix and CR for my anime, but allot of the time, there is a series I really want to watch that isn't on either, not even Funimation has it. For instance, Shiki, I ended up watching it on otakucenter fansubbed, oh well.

Why would you have to watch Shiki as a fansub when you are in the United States and Funimation simulcast it?

I checked at Hulu and Funimation, and they currently have all of the episodes available in subtitled format to free viewers, and most of the dubbed episodes.

Their simulcasts are typically available in full (i.e., they don't shrink back to only 2-4 free episodes like library titles) at least until after home video release, so I don't expect it was different when you went to view it before.
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