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Heaven is real
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21 / M / Underwater
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Posted 10/12/12
i watched boku no pico, so not going to heaven.
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23 / F / NY
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Posted 10/12/12 , edited 10/12/12

shadow_grey wrote:


phogan wrote:
That's kind of leap is it?



Jsybird2532 wrote:

That is most certainly a leap...no doubt about it. You don't conclude that "heaven" exists simply due to people recollecting experience during a coma. For all we know, besides it just being due to certain chemicals or activity in the brain during the coma--the person may not have actually had those experiences. Life is ephemeral, you honestly can never really know if what you remember happened 5 seconds ago really happened, you can only be sure about what is happening now, and even then, there is a processing delay, so you can't really be sure. Thus, I'm saying that those experiences could've been "implanted memories" of a sort induced by the coma.

Then you could go further; even if there is no natural explanation and it is clearly a supernatural phenomenon, you cannot simply conclude that "heaven" exists. Making the conjecture that heaven exists given this person's recollection, even if it was supernatural is not justifiable. For example, I could say I hold a belief that the reason we experience only our own lives and not those of other people is due to some sort of essence, or "soul" (I am not speaking about the typical Christian or otherwise religious definition) we have not yet discovered which dictates that we experience consciousness as a certain person in a certain body. I could say that this essence, which is the basis of our consciousness lives on somehow when we experience any sort of brain death and furthermore has some method of storing memories on its own and experiencing various sensations without a human brain as a substrate, although it does get recycled in the universe when a point in time is reached where there is no chance of said person being revived. Thus, the person can give recollections of experiences while he or she was brain dead, but no heaven exists in this model.


Wow, that's a pretty good hypothesis. However I wouldn't assert that such phenomenon is supernatural. My reason would be that I don't really know what "supernatural" really is. Even if I did know, there is no concrete way to establish that a certain phenomenon is supernatural since we can only empirically study natural phenomenon.


Hah...I was only giving an explanation to further thwart the idea. If you're trying to prove an explanation isn't necessarily true, logically you can simply give an alternative explanation that could also work. The second paragraph was designed with this in mind.

Furthermore, when I made the supernatural assertion--what I really meant was an assertion (for the sake of proof, although it isn't necessarily true and furthermore probably isn't) that no natural explanation (for the sake of being clear, let's say natural=observable, meaning we can detect something in as our universe as the cause, but not necessarily measure it) exists or could ever be found. We would call the alternative explanations in this case supernatural. Again, this is just to prove that if even no natural explanation could ever be found, then the explanation doesn't have to be heaven. (Btw, proving that there is no natural explanation could very well be impossible as there may be an infinite number of natural explanations that need to be looked at as our universe is so vast and complex in its nature).

I was a math major you know--I worked with how to logically prove things all the time in school (mathematical concepts in particular but proof concepts can be applied to other topics as well).
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29 / M / USA
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Posted 10/13/12
Simply put, as we do not know all of the natural laws of the universe, we can never reasonably assert that any particular event, experience, phenomena, etc. is/was in violation of them. There can never be valid reason to conclude that something was supernatural in origin.
Posted 10/13/12

thanto_ wrote:

Simply put, as we do not know all of the natural laws of the universe, we can never reasonably assert that any particular event, experience, phenomena, etc. is/was in violation of them. There can never be valid reason to conclude that something was supernatural in origin.


I am not sure one can violate or exceed nature, and unless we want to split hairs over how exactly nature is defined, everything that exists and happens in this universe is by definition natural.
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Posted 10/13/12

thanto_ wrote:

There can never be valid reason to conclude that something was supernatural in origin.


Add the word "currently" to the front of that sentence and it is correct, otherwise we can't be sure if it's validity. Supernatural could very well exist, although we can't currently prove anything as such given our lack of information about the universe. I gave a possible scientific definition of "natural" in my last post by the way, something with an observable cause, thus supernatural would be the opposite, something that has an unobservable cause.
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27 / M / USA
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Posted 10/13/12
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Posted 10/13/12

Jsybird2532 wrote:


shadow_grey wrote:


Jsybird2532 wrote:

Then you could go further; even if there is no natural explanation and it is clearly a supernatural phenomenon, you cannot simply conclude that "heaven" exists. Making the conjecture that heaven exists given this person's recollection, even if it was supernatural is not justifiable. For example, I could say I hold a belief that the reason we experience only our own lives and not those of other people is due to some sort of essence, or "soul" (I am not speaking about the typical Christian or otherwise religious definition) we have not yet discovered which dictates that we experience consciousness as a certain person in a certain body. I could say that this essence, which is the basis of our consciousness lives on somehow when we experience any sort of brain death and furthermore has some method of storing memories on its own and experiencing various sensations without a human brain as a substrate, although it does get recycled in the universe when a point in time is reached where there is no chance of said person being revived. Thus, the person can give recollections of experiences while he or she was brain dead, but no heaven exists in this model.


Wow, that's a pretty good hypothesis. However I wouldn't assert that such phenomenon is supernatural. My reason would be that I don't really know what "supernatural" really is. Even if I did know, there is no concrete way to establish that a certain phenomenon is supernatural since we can only empirically study natural phenomenon.


Hah...I was only giving an explanation to further thwart the idea. If you're trying to prove an explanation isn't necessarily true, logically you can simply give an alternative explanation that could also work. The second paragraph was designed with this in mind.

Furthermore, when I made the supernatural assertion--what I really meant was an assertion (for the sake of proof, although it isn't necessarily true and furthermore probably isn't) that no natural explanation (for the sake of being clear, let's say natural=observable, meaning we can detect something in as our universe as the cause, but not necessarily measure it) exists or could ever be found. We would call the alternative explanations in this case supernatural. Again, this is just to prove that if even no natural explanation could ever be found, then the explanation doesn't have to be heaven. (Btw, proving that there is no natural explanation could very well be impossible as there may be an infinite number of natural explanations that need to be looked at as our universe is so vast and complex in its nature).

I was a math major you know--I worked with how to logically prove things all the time in school (mathematical concepts in particular but proof concepts can be applied to other topics as well).


I see what you mean... But personally, I wouldn't want to use the word "supernatural" so carelessly. I'm not the exception when it comes to human follies. I once believed in "the supernatural." I thought I knew what it was. Time came when I tried to define it, nothing even remotely concrete came to my mind. Such a thing could be a logical fallacy or it could be that I'm just not smart enough to define it. Natural phenomenon, however vast, diverse, wondrous and awe-inspiring, is much simpler to define and until we can surely rule out all possibilities that fall within it, I think it'd be best to avoid using the word "supernatural."
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30 / M / The Infinite Cybe...
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Posted 10/13/12

phogan wrote:


netdisorder wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/heaven-real-says-neurosurgeon-claims-visited-afterlife-213527063.html

"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent."

Read the article, post your opinions.


That's kind of leap is'nt it? Our understanding of the brain is pretty limited, even more so when it comes to phenomena like dreaming. Truth is we don't know to what extent the neocortex is even involved in dreaming and other subconscious activity. From what we do know about the brain, it appears to be fairly adaptable, and there are a fair number of documented cased of the brain adapting to changes such as trauma (Neuroplasticity) like a stroke etc by essential moving the impaired portions function else where. One George M. Stratton found that when he wore glasses that inverted everything he saw, that within a few days his brain had correct for it and the image appeared right side up again despite the glasses. I think their is probably some middle ground that explains his experience far short of declaring the afterlife a reality, but the man can believe what ever he pleases.

edit: fixed several typos.


I've read articles of the brain's recovery of function after periods of YEARS not less than or within a week. Scientifically speaking, there is no current theory as to what caused his experience nor anything to prove that he didn't have the experience. Religiously speaking, if he is lying, most religions punish lying as an offense against creation, or a negative karma, or what have you.

I believe he may have had an experience that cannot be defined by the current scientific theories regarding what occurs during a coma...
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18 / M / Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 10/13/12 , edited 10/13/12
I dont think heaven in a coma is real : /

I think that having a strong relationship with god and jesus can get you to heaven. I consider myself to be a pretty deep christian (i really care about this.) . i am not a christian because i want to go to heaven, i hardly think of heaven. i am a christian because i see how wonderful his creations are and how amazing he is. we need to strive for him in this life.

that doesnt mean just going to church every sunday and "saying the prayer". it means really commiting you life to him and wanting to live in a right way for him. i mean i still mess up so much but i am constently getting back up again and trying to live right. i stray away from things that will bring me down. god wants us to love people as much we can and treat people with such kindness, regardless of who they are.

i know you guys might think "oh this guy is such a freakin church boy" well, yeah, kind of. but im also just like all of you. im not isolated away from the real world. i get the hurt and shit that people go through. This stuff brings me down too but i look for happiness in gods ways and he gives it to me. though life is not always perfect because things arent always gonna go my way.

I wish people would atleast try christianity before they go ahead and judge it. i know how crazy it sounds but its not about the facts and stuff. Its about the feeling that you will eventually feel when god really touches your heart. i remember when i became christian and this was VERY clear to me that he had touched my life and was a big part of it. i can feel god working in my life, it is hard to explain but that is why You Just have to try it :3
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29 / M / USA
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Posted 10/13/12 , edited 10/13/12

Jsybird2532 wrote:


thanto_ wrote:

There can never be valid reason to conclude that something was supernatural in origin.


Add the word "currently" to the front of that sentence and it is correct, otherwise we can't be sure if it's validity. Supernatural could very well exist, although we can't currently prove anything as such given our lack of information about the universe. I gave a possible scientific definition of "natural" in my last post by the way, something with an observable cause, thus supernatural would be the opposite, something that has an unobservable cause.


You left off the previous sentence, which demonstrates why the sentence you quoted is and always will be true. I'll restate: we do not know all of the laws of the universe. In fact, even if we did know them, we wouldn't know that we knew *all* of them, because we determine what they are solely through observation. So, if we observe something that doesn't jive with our current understanding of the rules, then the only rational conclusion is that our current understanding of the rules is wrong, not that something is breaking those rules (something supernatural).
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M / IDK
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Posted 10/13/12
Let me put in on short words "Fake and gay".
a619ko 
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21 / M
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Posted 10/13/12
As much AS I would LOVE to believe in heaven...
I just wont believe it till I see it.

That doesn't mean I will behave like a jackass(committing some terrible crimes)...
I will continue to treat people as they treat me.
Mostly nice.
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18 / M / Texas
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Posted 10/13/12
odd but most likely true
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27 / M / Gotham City
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Posted 10/13/12
I'd only be visiting heaven for the angels.



Posted 11/11/12 , edited 11/11/12
I wish it was real , would be nicer to think my father who died a cancer is alright now (almost 1 year this nov 22)
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