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Why do we anime fans not support the industry?
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18 / M / Tiphares
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Posted 10/26/12

isisprince wrote:


Zeta-Nu wrote:

Don't make the money argument. There's plenty of places you can legally watch anime at a cheap price. Even if it's not supporting the industry all that much, it's better than nothing.

Think importing's too expensive? Why don't you buy anime locally? It's certainly cheaper than importing. Even if you hate dubs, there's almost always a Japanese audio track. American licencors aren't as evil as you think. Supporting them helps the Japanese too.

Yes. We aren't the target market. But that doesn't give us an excuse to steal from them. It's a struggling industry that survives mostly on carbon copies. Helping them won't hurt anyone.

original content: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=493637


Because they think I'm going to pay two dollars an episode on a DVD for a crappy dub? Because they think that localizing means whitewashing the contents? Because they release anime five years after it comes out? Because the special features on a DVD consist of a gallery? Because the Blu-ray edition is ridiculously expensive compared to what it actually costs? Because they edit out the animation to be sensitive to Americans?

Shall I go on…

I have premium account here, I support legal anime, and I want to see it thrive. To really do this, I think we need to get rid of the American studios and just have the Japanese studios do it. All we need are the subs, send them out on some kind of digital distribution for pay, and move on with our lives.


Terrible idea. Nothing would thrive.

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53 / M / Northeast Ohio, USA
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Posted 10/26/12 , edited 10/26/12

agila61 wrote:

Saying "I spread the word" counts if you are spreading the word on legit access. Tweeting a bit.ly of a Crunchyroll series, or a Funimation series, or the licensed Tezuka series that Viki are putting on Youtube ... that all counts.

Saying "I spread the word" doesn't count if your reply to "sounds cool, where can I watch it" is a link to a torrent download site or a leech streaming site.



andydono wrote: That's what I was thinking of when I was typing that... Should of worded it differently.

I figured as much, which is why I split it into the cool "spreading the world" = giving the production committee a chance to make some more money ...

... and the leech "spreading the word", which can easily lead to people thinking that the stuff is only available from bootlegs, like it was still the early 90's and these were VHS fansubs being copied and mailed cross country.


isisprince wrote: ... Because they think I'm going to pay two dollars an episode on a DVD for a crappy dub?

Who said "support" = "buy a DVD". If you don't want to collect a DVD set, don't.

And if they picked the right series for the dub, where the extra market for the series justifies the extra cost of the dub, the sub watcher doesn't actually pay anything extra for the dub. I gladly paid $3 episode for the Maria-sama ga Miteru thinkpack releases, which came with subs with and without honorifics and the "Don't tell Mother Maria" special extras. If I had only paid $2 episode for the thinpack release, I wouldn't have expected the honorific sub and the extra video content.


Because they think that localizing means whitewashing the contents?

What was done a decade ago doesn't get the present tense, it gets the past tense. "They thought that ..." Indeed, the worst offenders from a decade ago are not even in business anymore, leaving the people trying to keep the complaint alive having to pretend that things like convincing themselves that the swearing added to Bleach by Dattabayo fansubs were actually in the original source material.


Because they release anime five years after it comes out?

If you don't consider Serial Experiments Lain or Utena or Rose of Versailles to be classics, don't buy them.


Because the special features on a DVD consist of a gallery?

You just said you objected to paying the budget price of $2 episode, and now you are objecting to not getting premium features at a budget price?


Because the Blu-ray edition is ridiculously expensive compared to what it actually costs?

You mean, because the Blu-Ray edition is a much smaller discount compared to Japanese prices than DVDs are.


Because they edit out the animation to be sensitive to Americans?

That is so uncommon in release in the past eight years that its pretty ridiculous to cite it as a serious issue.


Shall I go on…

There's more? I though you had already listed almost every lame excuse ever used by any bootleg downloader over the past decade.


I have premium account here, I support legal anime, and I want to see it thrive.

Then why drag up all the excuses used by torrent downloaders and leech streamers?


To really do this, I think we need to get rid of the American studios and just have the Japanese studios do it. All we need are the subs, send them out on some kind of digital distribution for pay, and move on with our lives.

That's silly ~ for the most part, they don't want to have to learn enough about overseas markets to handle all overseas releases themselves.

For those series where they do want to do it, they can go ahead and just do it ... there's no need to "get rid of American studios" for that to happen, since the rights start out in Japanese hands in the first place.

And although I prefer subs, I have to concede that when a dub is produced, the potential market for the series just about doubles.
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22 / M / 風の山
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Posted 10/26/12
i think its simpler to say that people in all honesty don't really care.

we care about the anime, but only as an entertainment basis. and as entertainment, its not worth it to put out more effort.

we grew up thinking corporations are evil money sucking leeches. and we don't see the effect of pirating, its so natural now that it doesn't make a difference in our individual eyes.

i myself do understand the consequences, im not the type otaku where i want to own everything. but if its something like cr or hulu plus i don't mind paying.

if your really against pirating than support people trying to track and traffic the internet. thats the only way, individually you might change someone, but the masses will just push back unless you really fight them.
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18 / M / Stoke, England
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Posted 10/26/12
My part-time job pays for other things, lol.
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26 / F / Playing Pokemon Y
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Posted 10/26/12 , edited 10/26/12
When your eight years old with parents who don't believe in allowances and also don't believe that a child should be wasting their money online, of course one is going to "steal anime" until they can. I didn't buy my first anime until I was like 18 yrs with a job and money to burn, even then I had to spend it on the down low, until I left my mother's house months later. I don't find it right that there is a money excuse, cause I know kids here that watch the anime for free cause they HAVE to, I know I did. I was around crunchy when things where not legit and I got by, just now that I am older with money, I support, buying anime, manga, t-shirts and games. Cause I can now, now that I am older.
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25 / M / PALO ALTO, CA
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Posted 10/26/12
I pay to watch Anime online (CR & Funimation) and that is about as far as I am willing to go. I also buy anime based video games if they are good enough.
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M / Northeast
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Posted 10/26/12

agila61 wrote:


agila61 wrote:

Saying "I spread the word" counts if you are spreading the word on legit access. Tweeting a bit.ly of a Crunchyroll series, or a Funimation series, or the licensed Tezuka series that Viki are putting on Youtube ... that all counts.

Saying "I spread the word" doesn't count if your reply to "sounds cool, where can I watch it" is a link to a torrent download site or a leech streaming site.



andydono wrote: That's what I was thinking of when I was typing that... Should of worded it differently.

I figured as much, which is why I split it into the cool "spreading the world" = giving the production committee a chance to make some more money ...

... and the leech "spreading the word", which can easily lead to people thinking that the stuff is only available from bootlegs, like it was still the early 90's and these were VHS fansubs being copied and mailed cross country.


isisprince wrote: ... Because they think I'm going to pay two dollars an episode on a DVD for a crappy dub?

Who said "support" = "buy a DVD". If you don't want to collect a DVD set, don't.

And if they picked the right series for the dub, where the extra market for the series justifies the extra cost of the dub, the sub watcher doesn't actually pay anything extra for the dub. I gladly paid $3 episode for the Maria-sama ga Miteru thinkpack releases, which came with subs with and without honorifics and the "Don't tell Mother Maria" special extras. If I had only paid $2 episode for the thinpack release, I wouldn't have expected the honorific sub and the extra video content.


Because they think that localizing means whitewashing the contents?

What was done a decade ago doesn't get the present tense, it gets the past tense. "They thought that ..." Indeed, the worst offenders from a decade ago are not even in business anymore, leaving the people trying to keep the complaint alive having to pretend that things like convincing themselves that the swearing added to Bleach by Dattabayo fansubs were actually in the original source material.


Because they release anime five years after it comes out?

If you don't consider Serial Experiments Lain or Utena or Rose of Versailles to be classics, don't buy them.


Because the special features on a DVD consist of a gallery?

You just said you objected to paying the budget price of $2 episode, and now you are objecting to not getting premium features at a budget price?


Because the Blu-ray edition is ridiculously expensive compared to what it actually costs?

You mean, because the Blu-Ray edition is a much smaller discount compared to Japanese prices than DVDs are.


Because they edit out the animation to be sensitive to Americans?

That is so uncommon in release in the past eight years that its pretty ridiculous to cite it as a serious issue.


Shall I go on…

There's more? I though you had already listed almost every lame excuse ever used by any bootleg downloader over the past decade.


I have premium account here, I support legal anime, and I want to see it thrive.

Then why drag up all the excuses used by torrent downloaders and leech streamers?


To really do this, I think we need to get rid of the American studios and just have the Japanese studios do it. All we need are the subs, send them out on some kind of digital distribution for pay, and move on with our lives.

That's silly ~ for the most part, they don't want to have to learn enough about overseas markets to handle all overseas releases themselves.

For those series where they do want to do it, they can go ahead and just do it ... there's no need to "get rid of American studios" for that to happen, since the rights start out in Japanese hands in the first place.

And although I prefer subs, I have to concede that when a dub is produced, the potential market for the series just about doubles.


It's not about "us and them." Your argument seems to want to paint me as someone who downloads anime, and I don't. I'm telling you for a fact about the anime that I do own, and how angry I am at what's on the disk. I have also rented countless films from Netflix where all you get are pencil concept drawings in the special features section. I own classic anime, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I get them all at bargain bins and discounts, because buying this crap new is just too expensive. I was just having this conversation last week, where we were talking about tegami bachi being $50($30 for 13 episodes). Seriously? This isn't an old anime! And it doesn't even have the dub, so what gives?

Okay, so I can tell you're not ready to believe yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Gintama-Collection-Artist-Not-Provided/dp/B0035ZZ9OE/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1351294230&sr=8-4&keywords=sentai+filmworks

Look at that price, and tell me you are not getting screwed.

I'm not saying the answer is bit torrent, or downloading it somewhere or whatever. I'm telling you that, present tense, I do have a point, studios are still misbehaving, and we are getting reamed. There are very good reasons not to purchase anime, and I gave you two modern examples.

That being said, I have a premium crunchy account, so I don't know what the rage is for.

I do want Japanese studios to take over the subtitling and digital distribution. It is not uncommon to hire translators, and it's not even that expensive. There are many Japanese-English translation options in Japan, and they could do it themselves. I stand by my suggestion at eliminating the English dub and just going straight for a digital release from Japan, with subtitles.
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24 / M / New Hampshire
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Posted 10/26/12
I don't know what brought this up crunchyroll is 100% legal it contracts with the people who make the anime just like a tv station would. you can watch it as a free member and they make money off the Commercials or a paid member and get it Commercial free, the anime producers get a cut of the profit. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean it's pirated material. So take you ignorant bleeding heart to the illegal sites and don't accuse this site of being illegal and don't accuse us of not supporting the anime industry,. Besides being a paid member of this site I also am a paid member of FUNimation which makes and airs anime. I don't take kindly to someone falsely accusing me or others of something just because they assume something without researching it.
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29 / M / Bellingham WA, USA
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Posted 10/26/12
Before high speed internet was so common, I would have to literally pay hundreds of dollars for a season of generally mediocre anime due to ludicrously over-priced DVD's. 3 or 4 episodes for a 25 dollar DVD is not acceptable. But if you wanted to watch anime that used to be the only option. If consumers hadn't been gouged from the start, maybe people would be less apt now to get whatever they can for free by other means. There's no reason anime needed to cost 3-4 times as much as other forms of media. Losing money now could almost be construed as karmic in nature.

And last time I checked having an active crunchyroll account/watching anime here with ads is supporting the industry. So I'm pretty sure the people here aren't really the target demographic for this thread.
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51 / M / East Coast
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Posted 10/26/12
Lets see I pay for CR and Funimation.I but dvds from shows I really like.I pay for anime on demand through my cable subscription and the PPV. Also when Anime On Demand is availble I pay for that too.

If you watch anime free on CR,Hulu,Funimatuion,Anime and Anime news you see ads which pay for the licensing rights.Some other sites wiil only let you watch 3 episodes a day. So I dont know how huge bootlegging is.

I think the question was put wrong because plenty of people dp support the industry.
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29 / M / Tamriel
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Posted 10/26/12 , edited 10/26/12
It depends on which fans we're discussing, and which part of the industry we're talking about.

Let me start by talking about myself for a brief moment. When I was in my early 20's, I joined a fansub group, thinking that this would allow me to help out people in watching series that they liked. We were trying to help, not to harm, and we were doing something we loved (fansubbing) for people who shared our love of anime. Do you know why so many fansubs have things like "please buy this anime once it is licensed"? It's because we love anime and the industry. It's NOT an easy task, and we wouldn't DO it if we didn't care about the thing we were working on.

About a year after I joined this group, a certain employee of ADV films came out on a press junket, discussing how dangerous fansubs were. This guy's name was Greg Ayres. Perhaps some of you remember that tour. I felt, at the time, that he was a shill who was misleading people. I still, to some extent, think he overstated some of his case. ADV was in more trouble than that caused by fansubs, and there was a lot behind the scenes. But he was still right.
And then, Geneon folded. And ADV. And as one of the people involved in fansubs, I felt like vomiting, I was so upset. Here people like me contributed to the downfall of the industry we loved.

And I've spent several years offline, partially as penance for my small part. And during that time, the only way I could watch anime was to rent it from mail-order places or buy it off Amazon. So, I've really seen all sides of the argument here.

Here's 3 things that I'd like to raise and examine.
1) Time taken to get to market. This is still true, someone upthread mentioned it. Several series from 2009 are FINALLY coming out next month on disc. That's 3 years, which is a long time. However, the average person isn't watching disc anime anyway. For those of us who want it on disc, there is actually some validity to the concept of watching it and then buying it. And some people who DL fansubs are the people who will do that. But then again, once you buy the disc, you have supported the industry. So, while I think those people should be encouraged to at least watch it legally until their discs come out, I have a bit of empathy for their 'plight'.

2) "Used" anime. This is actually one that I wonder about. Amazon used sales means not a dime goes to the industry, it goes to the seller. And some people see that as "stealing" from developers.
My own concern is that I have my doubts that Sentai is forcing places like Rentanime.com to buy rental discs at 50x the price or whatever it is, the way movie studios do. This is actually where most of my concern comes from. I think there are some people who genuinely want to help the industry, who aren't, simply because they don't know how to. Now, ignorance is not an excuse per se, and buying a used copy means SOMEONE had to buy it new, but you can see my dilemma.

3) Script Kiddies. I actually think this is 80% of the problem. Kids with too much free time and not enough disposable income. Which is, of course, where most piracy comes from. And these people DON'T care about the industry, and so don't feel they should support it. Many of them see it as a simple "time waster" and when the anime dries up, they'll move onto something else. Several people have mentioned this upthread as well. These people make me sick. As I said, I worry about the industry, and love it. I don't want it to collapse. And I wouldn't have worked as hard as I did to help people access anime if I didn't. These people need to understand that while anime is being provided for them, it's hard work. I always took the view that people expressing this view should be ip-banned from the sub site I helped with. I continue to hold this view. Because the fact of the matter is: The industry did start to collapse once. And it's part of the reason there ARE fewer licensed animes in the US. And it's why people like me, who tried to get anime offline have such a limited selection.
But of course, most people who hold this view are mentally children, if not chronologically so. If someone with maturity could take them under their wing, as I've done before, I think the view could be changed. We have to play nice with our toys.


On the other hand, there are parts of the industry I don't want to see supported. Bandai, for example, had some horrible decisions regarding their anime publishing (Daibuster, 6 episodes, 3 DVD's, MSRP of $50 each. WTF?) 4Kids was one many people didn't like. And I have no interest in any of the peripheral industries (posters, minifigs, etc.)

But at the end of the day, the anime industry will work exactly like many primarily net-based industries now. A few large sponsors, and a lot of smaller sponsors will subsidize the freeloaders. Which is fine. And some people will spend a lot when they can, and less when they can't. And some of us will spend money occasionally, but for the most part, will try to be deal-conscious. And I don't see any way to change it, nor do I think you should.
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20 / M / Ohio
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Posted 10/26/12
I am always careful about how i get anime or where i watch it.
I always buy official anime merchandise.
Except that one time I bought a bootlegged prop, but then i shoved that piece of crap in the dudes face and got my money back
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23 / M / Georgia
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Posted 10/26/12

Kohou wrote:

2) "Used" anime. This is actually one that I wonder about. Amazon used sales means not a dime goes to the industry, it goes to the seller.


I've checked Amazon for "Bodacious Space Pirates", which Sentai licensed recently. On Sentai's home site, a disc of the first 13 episodes will cost you about $60, but on Amazon, the price was considerably lower, and they're not even available for preorder yet, so there's no way that anybody owns it and is reselling it right now.

If you buy new, I think the money goes to the studio for a discount price that was agreed upon in advance. And as long as the anime is still in print, you can make a case that if you buy used, your money supports the seller's next purchase from that studio, whenever that may be.
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Posted 10/26/12

Maxmattsmith wrote:

I don't know what brought this up crunchyroll is 100% legal it contracts with the people who make the anime just like a tv station would. you can watch it as a free member and they make money off the Commercials or a paid member and get it Commercial free, the anime producers get a cut of the profit. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean it's pirated material. So take you ignorant bleeding heart to the illegal sites and don't accuse this site of being illegal and don't accuse us of not supporting the anime industry,. Besides being a paid member of this site I also am a paid member of FUNimation which makes and airs anime. I don't take kindly to someone falsely accusing me or others of something just because they assume something without researching it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crunchyroll#History

Please read the history of this website.
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46 / M / KC
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Posted 10/26/12

Kohou wrote:

2) "Used" anime. This is actually one that I wonder about. Amazon used sales means not a dime goes to the industry, it goes to the seller. ... Now, ignorance is not an excuse per se, and buying a used copy means SOMEONE had to buy it new, but you can see my dilemma.



That's perfectly legal. It's called The Right of First Sale. The wiki article is long, but to summarize: A company can only expect money from the first sale. They can't expect anything from secondary sales, otherwise that would cripple a chunk of the economy. In other words, you couldn't buy used books, clothes, cars, etc.


MatsumotoMania wrote:

I've checked Amazon for "Bodacious Space Pirates", which Sentai licensed recently. On Sentai's home site, a disc of the first 13 episodes will cost you about $60, but on Amazon, the price was considerably lower, and they're not even available for preorder yet, so there's no way that anybody owns it and is reselling it right now.


""Bodacious Space Pirates" doesn't illustrate the point that others were trying to make. The problem is really with out of print titles. Check out Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (When They Cry). The lowest price is $229. The highest is $889.
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