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situation in Gaza
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Posted 11/24/12 , edited 11/24/12

TorekO wrote:


My answer never was to your second question it was to point out what I stated and where it was pointed to since you said I wanted destruction of Palestinians.


So, you don't want the destruction of the Palestinians, only the destruction of 'bad' Palestinians, which you have not clearly defined, and so, your argument is not worth taking seriously. You may say you mean 'bad Palestinians' like HAMAS, FATAH, or people who do not very much appreciate Israel's continued bombing of Palestinians or their blockade- I would take that to be most of Palestine, and so, the only possible and reasonable solution, it seems to me, is that, you, I agree, do not want the destruction of all Palestinians, just most of them, until they learn their proper place in the world, to be humble and submissive in the presence of the IDF or the settlers.


But here ill point few things of difference between Israel and Hamas.
This savage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y and their stated goal are understandable goal? their goal isn't for fun? their joy is death of innocent people. They danced and were smiling when 9/11 happened, they give candies away when innocent people die, suicide bombers that killed innocent people are heroes to them and have altars of worship for them, they love death of others more then their own people lives and that's the problem here and why they are Terrorist organization, Hamas are recognized as a terrorist organization by Nations because they target non combatants with intention and their goal is genocide.


Israel being terrorist state is wrong, because it doesn't target innocent people, it doesn't want genocide it doesn't even want destruction of Palestine, instead it tried many times to start making peace, all it does is trying to defend itself and trying to minimize the danger of surrounding enemies that wants it destruction and their actions proves that, now if you gonna add civilian casualties, you cant avoid civilian casualties in such wars and Israel does try its best to avoid civilian casualties its proven but our enemy use civilians as a shield so it becomes complicated.



Israel sends planes in retaliation, they levelled Beirut and destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon, they continually starve the Palestinian people, deprive them of aid, for no better reason then they voted in someone we didn't like freely in their elections, they continually and illegally settle beyond their agreed boundary, and then attack Palestinians because they dare protest against it, your army of saints may not want genocide, nor do they want to 'kill civilians', but they are doing that any ways. If the enemy want to use civilians as shields to protect their fellow citizen from being killed on the charge of being suspected of being a terrorist (we, here in the west used to have a little something called 'trial by jury' for them), do you to blame civilians for being willing to lay down their lives for a cause they believe in? If HAMAS hate Israel and all Jews, and plan to exterminate them, what do you say about Israel's effective attempt at exterminating the Palestinains? As I said before, I am indifferent to this conflict, I do not support either the Palestinians of the Israeli (as evident from my critique of the OP where I do argue with him), and if one or the other is destroyed, that they shall return no more to their house, neither shall their place know him any more, we will all rejoice the the final settlement for peace.



About blockade, blockade was made to minimize the weaponry smuggling and suicide bombing and it did help against suicide bombing but not rocket smuggle, but the real question you should be asking, why Hamas that managed to smuggle rockets and wasted the donated money on it didn't use it to uplift level life of Palestinians? the only side that needs to stop using aggression is Hamas, once Hamas starts working towards peace and stop declaring destruction of Israel, they will start living peacefully and there wont be any need for blockade or war.


And the real question is why Israel is not letting in aid or supply while the condition of life deteriorate to such a degree that people are turning to folks like HAMAS, or why Israel is perfectly allowed to hunt down suspected terrorist from their fancy planes and their guns, and that their 'civilian casualty' is somehow excusable while the victims of the Palestinian attack on Israel is so inexcusable that is justifies more revenge killing? Or why International Law, on whose basis Israel owes it existences, is somehow exempt from Israel, and that it is willing to violate these laws over and over and over?


Now you tell me are they even similar? Israel isn't a saint but you really try comparing them?


Yes, they are similar, the IDF and HAMAS are a group of vicious thugees, decent people led into their little cult by propaganda, and rule by the conclave of higher ranking thugees, their bestial and hermetic ranks filled with people who, by virtue of their lacking of any semblance of human decency or kindness, are chosen to lead their people into perpetual war, only the only perceptible difference is that the IDF is richer and official. But, if two gang want to kill each other off, God be wi' 'em.
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Posted 11/24/12 , edited 11/24/12


Facepalm, you just spouted so much nonsense it was kinda funny... you don't even know what Israel truly does and what it did for Palestines and you clearly don't know the suppression of Palestines by Jihads.
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Posted 11/24/12

TorekO wrote:



Facepalm, you just spouted so much nonsense it was kinda funny... you dont even know what Israel truly does and what it did for Palestines.


I am afraid you don't know what Israel does, but, if you want to keep your delusions, go right on ahead, it really isn't my business. My position is the same as it was from the start, if they want to eliminate each other from the face of the earth, let them.

But to answer your doubts:

The Blockade is described by the BBC during 2010 as:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

'The blockade has been widely described as "collective punishment" resulting in a humanitarian crisis; UN officials have described the situation as "grim", "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege", but Israel says there are no shortages in Gaza, pointing to the aid it allows in.'

where

But the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation says 61% of Gazans are "food insecure".

Wikipedia says that the blockade is eased, not by the work of Israel, but because of the clemency of Egyptians, whose new leaders are ready to help any potential foe of Israel and antisemite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Further_easing_.282011-2012.29
Following the Egyptian revolution of 2011, the new Egyptian leadership opened the Rafah crossing to the Gaza Strip on 28 May 2011, for women, children and men over 40. Men aged between 18 and 40 require a permit and trade is prohibited.Palestinians leaving Gaza are required to carry ID cards issued by Israel. Israel criticised the opening citing security concerns.However, little changed in reality, and there were still severe restrictions on movements to and from Gaza.

In 2012 Egypt started supplying fuel to the Gaza Strip, to help ease a lengthy fuel crisis arising from a dispute between Egypt and the Hamas government in Gaza over whether Gaza can trade with Egypt openly, or only via Israel.


Likewise, in Lebanese War, the BBC estimate the numbers of civilian casualty and soldiers not involved in the battle against Hezbollah as around a thousand, not to mention the destruction of Beruit:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5257128.stm


As for Israeli violation of International Law, they are numerous, and I already provided several for your perusal.

Now, having demonstrated that I was, in fact, factually accurate, I think you should reconsider your position, maybe admit that I am right and absolutely right about this whole affair, and we should agree together that it is necessary for one side to eliminate the other- I don't really care which.
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Posted 11/24/12 , edited 11/24/12

Nope my point stands clearly on the same level, I already mentioned the blockade, I already mentioned the civilian casualties, you didnt bring anything new to the table or anything new that proves Israel is a terrorist state, the blockade allows Israeli to avoid suicide bombing that stopped happening after blockade was issued, if they want blockade to be removed they need to stop their genocide plan, which wont be happening any time soon and blockade sure aint helping them change their mind either, secondly stop watching BBC crap, its just the same as CNN and FOX.

btw the casualties of the lebanon gorilla tactic is considered very low for your information.
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Posted 11/24/12 , edited 11/24/12

TorekO wrote:


Nope my point stands clearly on the same level, I already mentioned the blockade, I already mentioned the civilian casualties, you didnt bring anything new to the table or anything new that proves Israel is a terrorist state, the blockade allows Israeli to avoid suicide bombing that stopped happening after blockade was issued, if they want blockade to be removed they need to stop their genocide plan, which wont be happening any time soon and blockade sure aint helping them change their mind either, secondly stop watching BBC crap, its just the same as CNN and FOX.

btw the casualties of the lebanon gorilla tactic is considered very low for your information.


First, you say that there is civilian casualties, and somehow, we are supposed to accept this as acceptable because it comes from Israel- they really can't avoid it, except by, you know, actually keeping their promises and trying to broker some semblance of peace and goodwill instead of their usual tactic of bombing and killing everyone and deteriorating the lives of Palestinians to the point where HAMAS seems very attractive as opposed to more moderate organisations.

Secondly, apparently their blockade is a success in stopping the purchasing of bombs, which explains how the rockets were able to kill Israelis, and how HAMAS is still able to man their militant wing with guns and rockets and bombs. Clearly, the thousands of Palestinians civilians, starving, dying, wanting aid, their suffering is clearly justified. Israel is now safer thanks to the fact that there are thousands of Palestinians, starving and raging against Israel, ready to be recruited to HAMAS, ready to defend HAMAS, and ready to fight against the Israeli. Clearly, your point still stands, Israel is now able to avoid the various attacks against it and create peace and goodwill amongst the Palestinians for Israel, who so Israel so much, they want to share the bombs that they managed to get through Israel blockade (which, while effective in blocking foodstuff and medical aid, do not seem to dampen the supply of ammunitions and bombs), their bullets, and share it with the nearest Israeli.

Of course, the blockade sure ain't helping them change their mind, maybe it is doing the opposite, maybe it is encouraging the image of Israel that HAMAS has always shown, maybe it is confirming the idea the Israel is, I don't know, starving and murdering them to make room for their settlements.

HAMAS and the Palestinians are not sophisticated enough to separate the Israeli people from their government, and the Israeli government from their American promoter, and all this from this vague entity 'The Jews', and blame them for just about every failing of their nation and their derelict society, from backward misogyny to backward antisemitism to almost every aspect and failing of their government and their people (useful in avoiding self-reflexion), just as the Israeli government, being just as unsophisticated, seems hell bent on punishing all Palestinians for democratically electing a party that is expressing their grievances instead of our interests, or revenge, or to make more room for their illegal settlement, and so on and so forth.

Can we reasonably expect that this should end by the long process of Negotiation amongst equals, with sincerity, honest attempts at peace, with goodwill on both side, with an agreement made with in civil debate and compromises, where both side are willing to surrender certain things for the greater good of peace amongst these two nation? Such a proposition is self evidently absurd! Which is why my solution is manifestly the only sane solution that any rational and reasonable person can accept- let them continue to war until one or the other is obliterated from the face of this earth, that one side shall not return to their homes, and the place that knows them knows them no longer.


You chide me for relying on the BBC, and say that I should, instead, focus on CNN and FOX. I live in America so I can surely tell you, most Americans don't trust either of these sources, FOX because it is so clearly right wing and bullshit (and whose owner, Robert Murdoch, is known to wire tap 9-11 victims and celebrities), and CNN because 24-hr news usually result in 23 hours of bullshit, and one hour of substance. BBC, on the other hand, is held to be much more reliable and accurate than the two, mainly because, since it is own by the British government, and publicly funded, if it slants too much to the left or right, there will be general cries of bias from one or the other side, and so, must keep to being less openly biased and less openly malinformed and inaccurate than the rest of the criers.

That being said, I didn't mean to raise any new point, just substantiate my existing points, and I believe I have done so so magnificently, that you are forced to attack the respectable BBC, mainly because facts are not in your favour.

You would do yourself considerable honour in acknowledging this- hypocrite lecteur, frère et semblance de Baudelaire - you are wrong. Few people do acknowledge this, few people readily admit to their inferiority to the great luminance of my genius, as if they were blind to the light of bright Apollo, and try to aim and hurl their spear at my immortal and, indeed, invulnerable body, but, if you acknowledge your intellectual inadequacy, and bow before my wisdom, you will save yourself the embarrassment of having me so thoroughly and utterly refuted that you can only hide in shame, and show not your face before the crowd that once knew you, and knew of your humiliation.

BTW- A thousand civilians seems a bit too high to be considered 'low', don't you think, and if you don't trust the BBC, here is the UN:
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/specialsession/A.HRC.3.2.pdf
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Posted 11/25/12 , edited 11/25/12



Dude what are you smoking? do I talk to a wall? first of all I said BBC,FOX,CNN all together, I didn't point to focus on CNN or FOX they are all crap and I didnt mention about BBC lie about the number of deaths, I meant they lie and cover a lot of truth and you should avoid using them and yes your truthful BBC that you believe so lies all the time with fake photos just like the few last weeks, Second stop saying all the stuff I already said, did I ever say blockade succeeded in stopping rocket smuggling? no. I said it stopped suicide bombing and I said it didn't stopped the smuggling of weapons I even said it doesn't help with the current situation with Hamas with a sarcasm it sure ain't helping them change their mind, read above since you missed it so clearly that you had to write a wall of text for it.

Of course there are civilian casualties its war you naive fool and what do you expect for Israel to do when rain of rockets fall on it? Sit and wait for their country to be bombed to shit because they cant hit targets where there are civilians because they were everywhere where the enemy were and acting like a shield for them? Ofcourse it would retaliate because Israel wants to protect his own people that's its priority, The innocent death per Hezbollah target is around 1 for 2 that's low for your so casually saying Israel targets civilians on purpose specially for a war where enemy hides behind civilians, Yes I wish it would be even lower and so many people in Israel but its not possible.



Please reread history of Israel trying to give peace to Palestinian people, it tried this already but it failed because Palestinians chose destruction of Israel because it chose Hamas and its why I stated I wanted all these jihads and hamas to be dealt with, Peace wont be possible unless Hamas that is the ruling party of Palestinian people atm starts going for it or be replaced with ones that do want peace.

Oh yeah Israel does break promises cant argue with that I aint happy about it, I just hope you are informed that hamas breaks more promises then Israel and the difference in goals of them.

The last sentence really made me laugh, I thank you for that though, it sure pointed how much lunatic a person can be.
Posted 11/25/12

TorekO wrote:




Dude what are you smoking? do I talk to a wall? first of all I said BBC,FOX,CNN all together, I didn't point to focus on CNN or FOX they are all crap and I didnt mention about BBC lie about the number of deaths, I meant they lie and cover a lot of truth and you should avoid using them and yes your truthful BBC that you believe so lies all the time with fake photos just like the few last weeks, Second stop saying all the stuff I already said, did I ever say blockade succeeded in stopping rocket smuggling? no. I said it stopped suicide bombing and I said it didn't stopped the smuggling of weapons I even said it doesn't help with the current situation with Hamas with a sarcasm it sure ain't helping them change their mind, read above since you missed it so clearly that you had to write a wall of text for it.

Of course there are civilian casualties its war you naive fool and what do you expect for Israel to do when rain of rockets fall on it? Sit and wait for their country to be bombed to shit because they cant hit targets where there are civilians because they were everywhere where the enemy were and acting like a shield for them? Ofcourse it would retaliate because Israel wants to protect his own people that's its priority, The innocent death per Hezbollah target is around 1 for 2 that's low for your so casually saying Israel targets civilians on purpose specially for a war where enemy hides behind civilians, Yes I wish it would be even lower and so many people in Israel but its not possible.



Please reread history of Israel trying to give peace to Palestinian people, it tried this already but it failed because Palestinians chose destruction of Israel because it chose Hamas and its why I stated I wanted all these jihads and hamas to be dealt with, Peace wont be possible unless Hamas that is the ruling party of Palestinian people atm starts going for it or be replaced with ones that do want peace.

Oh yeah Israel does break promises cant argue with that I aint happy about it, I just hope you are informed that hamas breaks more promises then Israel and the difference in goals of them.

The last sentence really made me laugh, I thank you for that though, it sure pointed how much lunatic a person can be.

woah im kinda shocked here i just asked what do you think about the situation, and it turned into a rage between people. Chill people all im asking is what do u think about it. Some people like it some do not. I hated it I STILL THINK ISRAEL is the real trrst state and that it is the doer off all wrong, and yes hamas to for doing what it does. But that does not mean that you can shoot and kill so many children and women. NO dat does not give you the right to do dat. Look isral is all peace right they killed one person by shootng him because he was on the buffer zone. Woah really peace huh I really think so huh. Oh and yes bbc is owned by a man whose wife is a jew from Israel so I woudnt rely on that, oh and i woudnt rely on FOX or CNN. All are biased, for me its twitter and Aljazeera. Aljazeera always tell the truth from both sides. Read this.
http://www.aljazeera.com/
They are the best and also Israel aiming for hospitals, omg and also media centres. OMG why why cos they might house these so called Hamas when they dont know for sure. What do they do well, ill kill children oh wait i should also kill the reporters, who then cant show the world what kind of state Israel is and why it is DISGUSTING.
Posted 11/25/12
Oh and dude I am from many countries a big mixture, Scotland Pakistan India and Saudia Arabia, I can admit when any of those countries do wrong but why cant u do it, u know dat killing civilians is wrong so why cant u admit it. You are so patriotic, I am proud to be a Scottish, Pakistani to and i know Pakistan does so much wrong. I admit they do. But not as bad as Isral does, oh and do u know that on the news. Most biased ones you are not allowed to show Palestinian suffering without showing Isralie suffering either, big difference between d two NOPE.
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Posted 11/27/12
Muslims are the main victims here. Everything you have learned from the mainstream media about the middle east is total bullshit.
Posted 11/28/12

-Vega- wrote:

Muslims are the main victims here. Everything you have learned from the mainstream media about the middle east is total bullshit.


I know that perfectly well, the muslims are victims everywhere
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Posted 11/30/12

ichigofes12 wrote:


-Vega- wrote:

Muslims are the main victims here. Everything you have learned from the mainstream media about the middle east is total bullshit.


I know that perfectly well, the muslims are victims everywhere


If the Moslems learn to be, at the very least, semi-civilised, they may, I don't know, earn respect from the rest of the civilised world.
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Posted 11/30/12
I think that Hamas is in the wrong and the actions of Israel are defensive and justified.
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Posted 11/30/12 , edited 12/1/12

TorekO wrote:


Dude what are you smoking? do I talk to a wall? first of all I said BBC,FOX,CNN all together, I didn't point to focus on CNN or FOX they are all crap and I didnt mention about BBC lie about the number of deaths, I meant they lie and cover a lot of truth and you should avoid using them and yes your truthful BBC that you believe so lies all the time with fake photos just like the few last weeks, Second stop saying all the stuff I already said, did I ever say blockade succeeded in stopping rocket smuggling? no. I said it stopped suicide bombing and I said it didn't stopped the smuggling of weapons I even said it doesn't help with the current situation with Hamas with a sarcasm it sure ain't helping them change their mind, read above since you missed it so clearly that you had to write a wall of text for it.


So, your argument is that all media is bullshit, and we shouldn't pay attention to any of them- but you are willing to admit that the BBC is accurate about the numbers of civilians killed. So, are you willing to concede that I was right to point out that Israel's aggression produces a needless amount of civilian casualty or not? You admitted that my position is founded, and that my sources are not entirely inaccurate about the numbers, do you chide me because I am right? I don't quite understand your position, and really, I don't think you understand your own position.

Secondly, you tell me that this blockade succeeded in stopping suicide bombing- tactics usually associated with a desperate group which has no other means of fighting- but it did not succeed in stopping bombs, rockets, and other such items. Do you mean to tell me that this blockade is actually making HAMAS more effective? You mention that you were sarcastic about the blockade changing the mind of the Palestinian people- meaning, I think, you are in agreement that the Gaza blockade is actually causing resentment amongst the Palestinian people and causing them to join Islamists. It seems to me that we are simply vehemently and bitterly agreeing with each other.



Of course there are civilian casualties its war you naive fool and what do you expect for Israel to do when rain of rockets fall on it? Sit and wait for their country to be bombed to shit because they cant hit targets where there are civilians because they were everywhere where the enemy were and acting like a shield for them? Ofcourse it would retaliate because Israel wants to protect his own people that's its priority, The innocent death per Hezbollah target is around 1 for 2 that's low for your so casually saying Israel targets civilians on purpose specially for a war where enemy hides behind civilians, Yes I wish it would be even lower and so many people in Israel but its not possible.


So, it is alright for Israel to attack Lebanon to bomb other people to prevent themselves from getting bombed? So, attacking and invading a neutral country, bomb their city, and killing their civilians because an Lebanese terrorist organisation is attacking Israel. That seems to be fair enough, however, you would agree, would you not, for the sake of fairness, then we should allow Palestinians to bomb Israeli cities, kill Israeli civilians, because a group of Israelis are illegally occupying their land, and because the IDF regularly attack Palestinians. And the Nation of Lebanon also has that right, because their civilians are attack, and their cities bombed. And we go about with the same merry fighting, only with more people. As I said before, the only solution is that one or the other tribe is either eliminated or made subservient.



Please reread history of Israel trying to give peace to Palestinian people, it tried this already but it failed because Palestinians chose destruction of Israel because it chose Hamas and its why I stated I wanted all these jihads and hamas to be dealt with, Peace wont be possible unless Hamas that is the ruling party of Palestinian people atm starts going for it or be replaced with ones that do want peace.
Oh yeah Israel does break promises cant argue with that I aint happy about it, I just hope you are informed that hamas breaks more promises then Israel and the difference in goals of them.

The last sentence really made me laugh, I thank you for that though, it sure pointed how much lunatic a person can be.


The history is that people get together to make deals, ordinary Israelis and Palestinians rejoice at hope of this conflict ending, then either the Israeli leadership (and usually the Israelis) or Palestinians break of the promise, and we return to war. Israel doesn't want peace, unless that peace is attached with the remaining bit of sand that the Palestinians have- and then some. The Palestinians doesn't seem to want peace unless it comes with the Jews all being rounded off to the Gas chambers. It seems that as soon as negotiations are over, any semblance of Good Will is taken to the back, blindfolded, and twice shot in the back of its head, once by the Israelis, and, just to make sure that it is really dead, and that perpetual warfare will continue, again by the Palestinians. In the end, the only possible solution is the destruction of one or the other.
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Posted 11/30/12

-Vega- wrote:

Muslims are the main victims here. Everything you have learned from the mainstream media about the middle east is total bullshit.


Yes, they are the victims, the Poor Mahometans- why can't the rest of the world see that it is perfectly alright to stone a girl for showing a small bit of skin? Why can't the world see that it is not okay to draw up a picture of their prophet, but it is perfectly alright to bomb churches, ancient statues of buddhas, and, especially, anywhere where more than one Jew congregate together? It is the world's fault they they are not arse-backwards like them, they are the victims- everyone else is at fault for their society being extremely reactionary and bigoted, derelict and dying, fanatical and idiotic.
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Posted 11/30/12 , edited 11/30/12

longfenglim wrote:


-Vega- wrote:

Muslims are the main victims here. Everything you have learned from the mainstream media about the middle east is total bullshit.


Yes, they are the victims, the Poor Mahometans- why can't the rest of the world see that it is perfectly alright to stone a girl for showing a small bit of skin? Why can't the world see that it is not okay to draw up a picture of their prophet, but it is perfectly alright to bomb churches, ancient statues of buddhas, and, especially, anywhere where more than one Jew congregate together? It is the world's fault they they are not arse-backwards like them, they are the victims- everyone else is at fault for their society being extremely reactionary and bigoted, derelict and dying, fanatical and idiotic.


Ah, another indoctrinated fool/sheep. Do some real research, man. You have no idea of what's going on. Make sure don't get you're information from the MSM/Propaganda machine. Wake up to the reality of the world around you.

The real situation in Gaza and Zionism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpvI8rX72o

Pay attention to Steven Hawking's quote in the video. That applies to YOU. After reading that quote, skip to the four minute mark to skip the introduction if you wish.

What is going on Gaza is the systematic genocide of the Palestinians by the Zionist. When I say Zionist, I am taking about the small minority of Jews who are absolutely evil who have no empathy. Do you have empathy?




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