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Sword Art Online: Plot being ruined.
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Posted 11/29/12

AnimeKami wrote:

People who throw themselves in a river of hate deserves to be called heros and a few applause.


Sounds like a martyrdom complex :P

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Posted 11/29/12
I would more than willingly try to present an argument to match this one you have presented. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, oh god no. I believe that this opinion and it's presentation were good for what it was aiming in showcasing. Unfortunately i do not know if you would be willing to spare some time and read it. So before I do, if agreed to enjoy a simple exchange of ideas and words, I will just state that I respect what you have stated and acknowledge your idea as a solid argument. Although I personally don't agree with it, I respect it.
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Posted 11/29/12
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Posted 11/29/12 , edited 11/29/12

FallenYmir wrote:


Except that they use more than "simple slashing".

Do you know what the switching system is supposed to do? In SAO, when you use (certain) Sword Skills, you're vulnerable to attack as seen during the boss fight in Episode 2. When you switch, you're protected for the most part while you can recover and if timed correctly, allows the monster to become vulnerable/consecutive counterattacks.


This is a basic strategy used in all MMO games. It's not something unique or complex.
You can disengage from monster to recover your HP and then go in the fight again.






Without watching Ep. 2 I already know Kirito was the one to defeat Illfang, not Asuna, and got the last attack bonus. Watching it, they used strategy in that Kirito would use the parry skill to leave an opening for Asuna. Kirito also used the wrong Sword Skill and ended up with about half of his heath gone. They also employed the same strategy again with Asuna using a multi-hit combo Skill and leaving Kirito to end it with a 2-hit combo Sword Skill.


Ep. 9 Ignorant comment, thinking Starburst Stream is the same as any other normal Sword Skill, which is why Kirito was so torned with the idea of revealing his Dual Blade Skill. Why use Starburst Stream when you can just slash it to death-Oh wait, at the rate we're fighting, we're going to die. Used the switch system so Kirito can prep. before tagging in.
For one, no one can match the damage output in the same time as one does using Starburst Stream in SAO. The Dual Wield Skill also gives a bonus in the form of higher attack speed, lower cool down, etc.


And how many times has this switch strategy been used up to this point in the series?






Ep. 14 Ignoring that the previous episode which had them form and use a strategy (Kirito, Asuna, and Heathcliff neutralizing The Skull Reaper's main method of attacking while the others attacked), the boss was brought down to basically 1% which is when, and I'm not basing this on any statistics, every gamer starts spamming attacks. They didn't even use the same "slashes" as you would put it.



Exactly my point. The animator/director failed to show what the other members of the party did exactly to help down the boss' HP.
This is always omitted in MOST of the boss' fight. It's always... Kirito going to block this, switch, then kill. They failed to go into the finer details of the battle.

Instead, throughout the anime, they focused on ridiculous things such as Asuna's "very delicious" sandwich which she learnt from her Cooking Profession. I can recall at least 3 times, Kirito and Asuna talking about that sandwich.

I have nothing against Shoujo elements, I love Ouran and Little Monster, and I don't favour shounen elements over shoujo elements, but focusing on sandwich making instead of focusing on the deeper details of battle elements is ridiculous.



Those skills you listed are magic which, as Kirito stated in Episode 1, doesn't exist in SAO. Now that we have that covered, I'm going to post videos with classes that are likely to be found in SAO.

Now I'm not an expert so I'm going to link to IGN's gameplay of Guild Wars 2 as a Warrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdoW6MSuklI
Looks just like SAO except with one skill being able to throw your melee weapons (In SAO, you're able to throw smaller items so close enough). Skills change depending on weapon (like SAO), and look! What you call simple slashing is there in the form of a skill called "GreatSword Swing" (what's even funny is that the commentator opts to call it an auto-attack). Then there's "Hundred Blades" which looks and is described like Starburst Stream-lite.


It's hard to explain, but I'll try. In most MMO's, yes it's all slashing, but there are skills you have to use in between those slashing if you want to succeed in killing a boss.

For example the Guild Wars 2 warrior has skills that call "Banners", which it can use to heal allies or gain defensive stats. Or the "stance" which also give defensive stats. Or "signets" to gain defensive or offensive stats.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_skills

Go down to "Utility" and you'll see the different types of banners a Warrior can use. And note the number of skills just for the Warrior alone.





No expert on Final Fantasy 14 so here's a video (which unsurprisingly had less than Guild Wars 2) Warrior Skills: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5_Gz9GRkd4
That looks even LESS impressive than Guild Wars.
FF14 Paladin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UIUQfIvh_g
FF14 Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmc3g3G3kdY
FF14 Lancer/Dragoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0vrpjQd-Uo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPr2vp1obg
Which all look like SAO with (some) flashier skills.

Feel free to link to a video that proves me wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMf-8aNeWs
That's basically SAO with a female Kirito and has almost the same moveset, even with a Starburst Stream at 2:44. Looks like mindless slashing to you?, it's not to me, since not using skills won't get you past midlevel bosses. Now I don't know that particular character's skills since the North American version offered free Lv. 50 Characters, so I'm going to base my (accurate) observation on the fact that Vella is a copy of Lann and that the Side-step, Blocking, and Counterattack Skills which are found on Lann are clearly used in the video.



I can't show you a video because in videos you won't be able to grasp what's really happening because it's mostly just slashing action. The skills they use in between might not show up on video.

But in Final Fantasy Online games, the tank uses skills what is called "getting the hate" from the monster, the skill is called, "Aggravate" or something which draws the monsters' attention from the non-tank classes.

They have to use this wisely and in between attacks as there is a cooldown period for these skills.

This is in addition to blocking the special attack from the monster. The tank has to do all of these things. While the support classes have to heal the tank and damage the monster fast.


Furthermore, for each different boss or dungeon, you can't use the same tactics to kill them.
That's why they offer a variety of skills in real life MMO's... use the wrong combination and you'll die many times.


________________________________________________



I'm not expecting them to cover everything in an MMO. But I really don't understand why for most of the boss/dungeon scenes, they show the same tactic and slashing animation.
Because that's not how it works in an MMO game.

If I wasn't an MMO player for 10 years, I wouldn't have picked up on this omission. Just like if I watch an Anime about Japanese History, I wouldn't be able to tell which part is incorrect because I don't know much about Japanese History.

But I know too much about MMO, and Sword Art Online (the anime) does not cover the complexities of an MMO.
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Posted 11/29/12
Gotta completely agree with DomoKevin's original post. There was so much potential in that first Arc. The Episode that they spend trying to solve a murder, and the episodes involving the tension between the beta testers and other players. Those were examples of the fantastic concepts possible in that first "Death Game". The tension and fear of dying was excellent for setting up more like that. But they escape... some crap about not all the players getting free....and his sister/cousin and some incestuous crap. Then Asuna's trapped! and Fairies....and some lame adventure to save Asuna...and his sister games now! Oh No! not that! And some more incestuous crap...blah blah blah.

If they had exploited the first Arc to it's full advantage this would have been a well rounded, and fully satisfying series. But it gets weak really fast after the first Arc.
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Posted 11/29/12 , edited 11/29/12
Indeed there was a lot of potential in the Aincrad arc ....

I agree if they added more MMO stuff in detail then a lot of gamers out there will have more satisfaction with this anime .

They also added or rather aqueeze in all the side stories written for that arc. without letting it develop organically and There were 25 chapters written for that arc alone but the production company decided to sped thru it in 15 episodes and continue with the next arc.
In turn the viewers are not ready for the next plot.

So thats where the problem lies, its not in the plot but how the adaptation was done , of course the original writer rather author could have done away with the tentacles slugs , that was kinda cheap. but then again , it could be the editors fault.

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Posted 11/29/12
Guilty Crown is another anime that lost its way sometimes.Episode 12 was just crap.And there was a couple of episodes that strayed.
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Posted 11/29/12

FLjerry2011 wrote:

Guilty Crown is another anime that lost its way sometimes.Episode 12 was just crap.And there was a couple of episodes that strayed.


You don't have to compare anything form either anime but the protagonist. This says a lot about the quality of the anime.

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Posted 11/29/12

FallenYmir wrote:


GayAsianBoy wrote:

FallenYmir wrote:

Saying that SAO has no skills is trolling when EP. 1 states that there are skills in the game with further episodes proving the claim. So much for reading comprehension, huh?
Vindictus is one MMO that's similar to SAO (Playing as Lann/Fiona characters). What MMO are you talking about?


You really need to read my original post more thoroughly; I wrote it in plain and simple English. Nowhere did I say SAO has no skills; I said all the skill I see involved is the "slashing" of swords which contributes to the simplicity of the game mechanics of an MMO.

I never said SAO lack all of an MMO aspects; I merely said that its MMO mechanics are SIMPLE. Get that through your head.
I do acknowledge that it represents an MMO; with the use of potions, HP, pets, resurrection stones, teleportation stones, dungeons, bosses, crafting. But I'm only voicing my own opinion about how it addresses the skills aspect of an MMO at a superficial level, which in turn contributes to its simplicity.


FallenYmir wrote
Yes I think the anime is great but I also pointed out flaws. EP 3, A Murder Case in the Area, Kirito and Asuna being the only two people in the entire game being genuinely happy, Kirito being able to steal weapons, Alart, Sleep PK in general, Paralysis lasting longer than a minuet in an MMO with PvP (Personal), Asuna being able to disarm Kuradeel in a PvP

Switching isn't a skill, it's an aspect/strategy in SAO. Dual-wield is just ONE of the skills (since no-one can dual-wield except for one person) with Starburst Stream being a subset under it.

Majority of Sword Skills being used in the anime 1-14.
Episode 2, 13/14 are the ones with the most obvious uses of Sword Skills but since you need me to point out every example:
Episode 1: Kirito and Klein use SS against Boars and Kirito used one against the wolf
Episode 2: Diabel, Kibaou, Asuna, Kirito, Agil and his team used against the Boss.
Episode 3: Kirito and Tetsuo against the Mantis, Klein used one against the wolf, Kirito used the non-combat skill Pursuit, The Axe dude in the Guild used one against the Golem, Kirito used it against the Goblins/Golems,
Episode 4: Had Rosalia use Listening, Silica using one against the marlboro/plants, Titans Hand mooks using SS against Kirito, Kirito's Battle Healing skill
Episode 7: Kirito uses one against the Ice Dragon's breath attack/Ice Dragon
Episode 8: Kirito AND the monster use one in the opening 30 seconds with Kirito killing it with Vertical Square. He uses one against the Ragout Rabbit, Kirito and Kuradeel use them in their fight, Asuna, Kirito and a monster use Sword Skills.
Episode 9: Kirito and Asuna using Sword Skills on the boss with Kirito revealing the Starburst Stream Skill. Hell, Klein even brought up a menu for Skills and there was a close up of three of Kirito's skills 3 seconds later with an expanded view of 7.
Episode 10: Divine Blade, Heathcliff and Kirito fight, Asuna using Star Splash and Kirito using Embracer on Kuradeel
Episode 11: Asuna uses one twice on the Army member,
Episode 12: Kirito uses the Detection skill on The Fatal Scythe.
Episode 13: Nishida uses the Fishing skill on the fishing pole. Asuna uses a Sword Skill on the lungfish. The whole Skull Reaper Fight
Episode 14: Skull Reaper fight + Heathcliff and Kirito's duel.
Episodes 5 and 6 are probably the only ones without since there was no fighting involved.

You get fall damage, Weapons/Items has Durability, Weapons based on Speed/Power/Stats, Armor based on Stats/situation, Bosses have more HP bars than regular monsters and do different attacks based on the weapon they hold/V.2 mode, Monster Taming, Potions and Crystals (Warp and Healing), Menu/G.U. Interface, Skills, Upgrading/Forging via Blacksmith, Cooking/Fishing skills, PvP, Guilds with Guild Emblems, Negative Statuses (Stun ottomh), Personal Homes, Party, Buddy Lists + Messaging System, Trade system, Town Teleport Gates, Leading Monsters to a town and letting it kill the NPCs strategy, Map, Level System, Music In-Game, Quests from NPC/etc, Revival Item, People trying to get dates with girls, Monsters Respawning via glowing light, Indicator Icon over players which changes colors identifying PvPers, GM hax, Marriage/Shared Storage.
SMELLS LIKE MMO TO ME.


Thank you for taking the time to provide evidence for your claims. I went through the anime again and will provide evidence for my claim.

Episode 2: @14:58 minutes; Kirito and Asuna just rann into the boss using just switching. Asuna finished the boss with just one simple slash.

Episode 3: @6:46 minutes; Again Klein finished off a wolf with a simple slash.
@17:50 minutes, the animator didn't even show the battle between Kirito and the boss.

Episode 4: @3:28 minutes, Again kirito finished off 3 ogres with his slash that wasn't even animated.

Episode 7: @14:07minutes: It's not an "ice breath attack", again Kirito just whirled his sword and the snow from the ground whirled around him, that's all. This is not a skill.

Episode 8: @00:35 minutes: Again Kirito finished a Monster with just slashing.

Episode 9: @14:53 minutes: Starburst stream, again, a skill that just involves Slashing the enemy to death.

Episode 10: Slashing.

Episode 13: Fishing skills are part of crafting... as is cooking skills are. It's not relevant to my argument. Asuna killed stuff with slashing again.

Episode 14: @00:21 minutes, boss is SLASHED to death. No real skills or strategies.

Do you see the pattern? All they do is slash the enemy to death. It's all about who is the highest level.

MY ORIGINAL COMMENT:

My expectations were not met after Episode 1.

When I watched the first episode I was like, "Oh wow, I'm going to love this series".

And then... they just focus on storylines/aspects that could have been done in a normal drama/shoujo anime. It didn't stay true to the sci-fi element or to the environment/setting the anime is set in.

As an MMO player myself, the game mechanics in the anime was too simple. Sword slashing... that was it. They didn't elaborate on how you have to figure out ways to defeat a boss... it was just slashing.


And the characters are even worse. Cliched personalities and reactions. In my review, I gave this 3 out of 5 stars anyway and that's being generous.


In real life MMO's, the player doesn't just slash slash slash block block block his way through a monster, especially not a dungeon monster.
They have support classes and support skills such as defensive buffs known as "Protect" or "Shell" in Final Fantasy XI/XIV online.
There are also crowd control skills known as "Mass Invisibility" or "Freeze" in Guild Wars 2.

ALSO, I never said SAO is not an MMO, so stop twisting my words or putting words in my mouth. I said its mechanics are simple.

I have already provided evidence for my original claim; you're trying to counter an argument I never ever presented.

Please don't put words in my mouth and read my comments more thoroughly next time.


Except that they use more than "simple slashing".

Do you know what the switching system is supposed to do? In SAO, when you use (certain) Sword Skills, you're vulnerable to attack as seen during the boss fight in Episode 2. When you switch, you're protected for the most part while you can recover and if timed correctly, allows the monster to become vulnerable/consecutive counterattacks.

Without watching Ep. 2 I already know Kirito was the one to defeat Illfang, not Asuna, and got the last attack bonus. Watching it, they used strategy in that Kirito would use the parry skill to leave an opening for Asuna. Kirito also used the wrong Sword Skill and ended up with about half of his heath gone. They also employed the same strategy again with Asuna using a multi-hit combo Skill and leaving Kirito to end it with a 2-hit combo Sword Skill.
Ep. 3 Still a skill and Klein himself said they were trash monsters anyways. And, unless you like filler, there was no fight description for Nicholas the Renegade in the source material unlike the Floor 1 and 74 Bosses.
Ep. 4 Glowing Sword = Sword Skill Used, even if it wasn't animated. Could have been a "simple slash" x3 as you put it or it could have been one of the AoE SS (I wouldn't know, I don't read the LN).
Ep. 7 Funny since 3 seconds earlier, Lisbeth says, word for word, "Its breath attack! Dodge!" before switching to the Dragon shooting ice-fire from it's mouth to Kirito using a Sword Skill against it right after. He even sliced off one if it's arms (unless you think that's not a strategy)
Ep. 8 Except that wasn't just a slash, that was one of the more complex Sword Skills in the game.
Ep. 9 Ignorant comment, thinking Starburst Stream is the same as any other normal Sword Skill, which is why Kirito was so torned with the idea of revealing his Dual Blade Skill. Why use Starburst Stream when you can just slash it to death-Oh wait, at the rate we're fighting, we're going to die. Used the switch system so Kirito can prep. before tagging in.
For one, no one can match the damage output in the same time as one does using Starburst Stream in SAO. The Dual Wield Skill also gives a bonus in the form of higher attack speed, lower cool down, etc.
Ep. 10 Heathcliff's Holy Sword Skill allowed him to switch between his Sword and Shield instantaneously in battle which he used in both this fight and 14. I don't know enough about PvP to know if Sword Skills are the only viable option or if normal strikes count (Looks like the latter)
Also ignoring Asuna using a multi-combo Sword Skill to disable Kuradeel before he was able to strike and Kirito using a Marital Arts Skill.
Ep. 13 Still considered skills. Asuna was also overleveled so a low-level Sword Skill is all that's needed.
Ep. 14 Ignoring that the previous episode which had them form and use a strategy (Kirito, Asuna, and Heathcliff neutralizing The Skull Reaper's main method of attacking while the others attacked), the boss was brought down to basically 1% which is when, and I'm not basing this on any statistics, every gamer starts spamming attacks. They didn't even use the same "slashes" as you would put it.

Should have included Ep. 5 since they come up with a strategy to defeat one of the bosses by luring it to the village and letting it attack the NPC while they attack it (or the non-animated part where they tried to feed it meat or lulled said boss to sleep via NPC but we're only talking about the anime)

As for your comment on how you don't think SAO lived up to being an MMORPG, I'll let that go since that's an opinion even though everything I listed were found throughout the anime and that others agree it lived up to an MMO environment. You're clearly not going to change your mind.

Levels only work on lower monsters. Higher level monsters and bosses require strategy which the anime clearly shows.

Those skills you listed are magic which, as Kirito stated in Episode 1, doesn't exist in SAO. Now that we have that covered, I'm going to post videos with classes that are likely to be found in SAO.
Now I'm not an expert so I'm going to link to IGN's gameplay of Guild Wars 2 as a Warrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdoW6MSuklI
Looks just like SAO except with one skill being able to throw your melee weapons (In SAO, you're able to throw smaller items so close enough). Skills change depending on weapon (like SAO), and look! What you call simple slashing is there in the form of a skill called "GreatSword Swing" (what's even funny is that the commentator opts to call it an auto-attack). Then there's "Hundred Blades" which looks and is described like Starburst Stream-lite.

I'll look at a Guardian later since the video won't load.

No expert on Final Fantasy 14 so here's a video (which unsurprisingly had less than Guild Wars 2) Warrior Skills: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5_Gz9GRkd4
That looks even LESS impressive than Guild Wars.
FF14 Paladin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UIUQfIvh_g
FF14 Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmc3g3G3kdY
FF14 Lancer/Dragoon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0vrpjQd-Uo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObPr2vp1obg
Which all look like SAO with (some) flashier skills.

Feel free to link to a video that proves me wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMf-8aNeWs
That's basically SAO with a female Kirito and has almost the same moveset, even with a Starburst Stream at 2:44. Looks like mindless slashing to you?, it's not to me, since not using skills won't get you past midlevel bosses. Now I don't know that particular character's skills since the North American version offered free Lv. 50 Characters, so I'm going to base my (accurate) observation on the fact that Vella is a copy of Lann and that the Side-step, Blocking, and Counterattack Skills which are found on Lann are clearly used in the video.


This post was way to long, I didn't even read it. No seriously, it wasn't possible. Try making it more briefer so we can actually try to care about what you're trying to say. I can't even tell if you're trying to defend Sword Ass Online or promoting it. Either way, don't make long post. Because only 1 or 2 people are the ones who can be bothered reading your post.
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saying this mmo game is simple might be going way over the line.. i mean yes the combat system might not be as developed, but then again its not even as detailed in the anime as it were in the light novel, second of all this MMO game is ten times more complex than any MMO available out there.. its not just a simple hack and slash game.. The game got so many other elements based on what it was supposed to be, a VRMMO game where soo many other elements become important than just the few things mentioned..
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Blah, you people so srs

Aincrad is my favourite arc and I wish the series kept going in a similar fashion with the overlying danger of death instead of becoming more light and fluffy (than before) But ah well, I enjoy what we get anyway.

Read the light novels, they're 10x better~
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I just don't get how this post is called Plot being ruined..Yet its based of a successful light novel... Just curious what part of this is Actually ruining something already created, and approved by a large audience.

If its not your taste that's fine... But its funny how the few try to control the Mass just because they don't want to be part of the mass. Somethings are just good. If they weren't following the novel's then there would be a whole nother mass of trolls for a different reason.

But hope u feel better about making a post in which u really state nothing of significance.
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Posted 11/29/12
This "I'm love with my brother" crap is ruining it. Or at least trying to.
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Posted 11/29/12
What makes an MMO is the community of players IMO. All this going on about slashing and complex mechcanics is just silly. It really is. It's being hyper anaylzed for almost no reason.

The likeable characters, solid coming of age(ish) story, and strong animation is what makes this show so popular (and to me). Sure it has some slightly off "sister-but-not-sister love" in it, but at the same time we see her struggling to accept those feelings regardless, and still support our male lead.

Does every show have to super thought out with deep, deep hidden meanings behind in order to be interesting? No, I feel SAO shows an anime doesn't have to be crazy mind melting to be enjoyable.
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Posted 11/29/12

Millatyme14 wrote:

I just don't get how this post is called Plot being ruined..Yet its based of a successful light novel... Just curious what part of this is Actually ruining something already created, and approved by a large audience.

If its not your taste that's fine... But its funny how the few try to control the Mass just because they don't want to be part of the mass. Somethings are just good. If they weren't following the novel's then there would be a whole nother mass of trolls for a different reason.

But hope u feel better about making a post in which u really state nothing of significance.




That last bit you posted...."...nothing of signifigance...." Seems a moot point. You posted an insignificant post about insignificance. Is that not the very fabric of forums? Online space to let your thoughts ooze out into the virtual universe.
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