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Post Reply Will you always be an outsider in Japan?
Lisu 
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29 / F / Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 2/18/13

alchyalchemist wrote:


Lisu wrote:


FrankieChains wrote:

NOEXE I don't think you have to worry about that for much longer since that in the next few years Hispanics will be the majority in the U.S.


I think we'll have assimilated them before then, like we've done with the Irish, Germans, English, etc. The Asians still resist but they are losing the fight.

We are the Americans. Existence as you know it is over. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.


In actuality Asians are fighting for recognition as American and are encountering resistance from "mainstream" Americans in terms of acknowledgment. Just go to any FIND meeting. There's currently no such thing as Asian-American culture on the same level as White or Black American culture. If you're asian and live in the U.S. you can be described personality-wise as trying to be white, trying to be black, or you're a FOB.

I'm asian and a US citizen but ironically I'm more accepted as an american in Japan than in the U.S.
Typical first conversation
In Japan:
"Where are you from?"
"America"
"Oh Cool!"

U.S.A.:
"Where are you from?"
"America"
"No, I mean, like, where are you from?"
"America"
"No, I mean, like, where did your parents come from?"

I prefer living in Japan because if I'm going to be considered an outsider I'd rather at least actually be an outsider.


Must be different parts of the US.

If you're here and you speak any form of american English, you're american.

We still stereo type though. Like, Asians are extremely smart/good at games, if you're black you can jump and dance really well, if you're Irish you can drink really well.

But I am closer to a "melting pot" point. Back 15 years ago though, I would have noticed it and it got pointed out.
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Posted 2/18/13

Lisu wrote:


alchyalchemist wrote:


Lisu wrote:


FrankieChains wrote:

NOEXE I don't think you have to worry about that for much longer since that in the next few years Hispanics will be the majority in the U.S.


I think we'll have assimilated them before then, like we've done with the Irish, Germans, English, etc. The Asians still resist but they are losing the fight.

We are the Americans. Existence as you know it is over. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.


In actuality Asians are fighting for recognition as American and are encountering resistance from "mainstream" Americans in terms of acknowledgment. Just go to any FIND meeting. There's currently no such thing as Asian-American culture on the same level as White or Black American culture. If you're asian and live in the U.S. you can be described personality-wise as trying to be white, trying to be black, or you're a FOB.

I'm asian and a US citizen but ironically I'm more accepted as an american in Japan than in the U.S.
Typical first conversation
In Japan:
"Where are you from?"
"America"
"Oh Cool!"

U.S.A.:
"Where are you from?"
"America"
"No, I mean, like, where are you from?"
"America"
"No, I mean, like, where did your parents come from?"

I prefer living in Japan because if I'm going to be considered an outsider I'd rather at least actually be an outsider.


Must be different parts of the US.

If you're here and you speak any form of american English, you're american.

We still stereo type though. Like, Asians are extremely smart/good at games, if you're black you can jump and dance really well, if you're Irish you can drink really well.

But I am closer to a "melting pot" point. Back 15 years ago though, I would have noticed it and it got pointed out.


Not being considered american and being treated as an inferior is neither synonymous nor mutually exclusive. It's also similar to being a foreigner in Japan.

New York City is considered a melting pot but it still happens here all the time. As for suburbs near NJ: "Everyone here is white, even the black people" This area has varying ranges of meltinpotness but it seems that people are usually dissatisfied with "American" as your answer in the friendliest of introductions (as in, aside from pressing you for a different answer they wouldn't treat you differently from anyone else because they aren't actually racist). Or perhaps they are just of the mindset that no one is actually "just american" which is sensible.

I had one pedestrian say "Yo when you're in this country..blah blah driving blah blah." while I was driving in manhattan (melting pot area). Also in high school (suburbs near NJ, not as melting pot) you had this guy who would make comments like "one phone call and I'll have you sent back where you came from" which of course would be back to America, which is where we currently were. He was of Italian descent (and back when Italians were first immigrating to america they weren't considered americans).

There was a tv commercial for reality tv with some asian guy who at one point says "I'm an american citizen and i like reality tv" implying a duality between citizenship and ethnicity. This may seem legitimate but when talking about americans people generally aren't referring to indigenous ethnic groups or possibly norsemen.

In the U.S. racism isn't really citizenship based, as in racial discrimination can be directed at a group of people that include both citizens and non citizens while racial favoritism is being directed at a different group of people that include both citizens and non citizens.

In Japan (at least among younger generations in cosmopolitan areas like Tokyo) being a foreigner makes you an outsider in terms of distinction rather than value. Some people treat foreigners as equals, others don't, some prefer hanging out with foreigners. A friend of mine would get offended when an employee at a restaurant would flip the menu to the english side for her but that's probably done as a courtesy of trying to be helpful rather than as a slight to imply ignorance.

I feel like I'm going off on tangents, as opposed to on off secants.
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27 / M / ロンドン、カナダ
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Posted 2/23/13
Learning about the dynamics of 内 and 外 (uchi and soto) within Japanese culture can help others gain a better understanding and perspective about this issue.
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Posted 2/23/13
no. unless all your friends are douchebags. nuff said.
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24 / F
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Posted 3/14/13
I knew this woman who left home to go to japan, and married a japanese guy and now runs a beauty parlor there. She's def not an outsider, and people pretty much think she's japanese. (she's chinese btw, so i guess its probably easier for her compared to a caucasian)
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49 / Los Angeles / San...
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Posted 3/17/13
"We are the Americans. Existence as you know it is over. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."

Nice.

For a large subset of americans being accepting of diversity is a core value and almost all of those people believe that adding new and different people to the mix makes us stronger.

I recall seeing a study sometime last year that looked at rates of assimilation in various European cultures. If I remember right, immigrants to Germany that had been there for 3 generations only had about a 1 in 3 chance of feeling like they were accepted as German. Similar numbers existed for France, Switzerland, Italy and so forth. But in the United States something like 70% of 2nd generation immigrants would say that they were accepted as Americans. It was the highest rate of acceptance, by far, in the study. Japan wasn't included in that study, of course, but I get the impression that the number for Japan would have been very close to zero.
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25 / M / Bonne Lake, WA
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Posted 3/17/13
I listened to a story about an american that moved to japan shortly after his tour of duty in korea in the 1960's. He had written a few books, and the story was a memorial because he had just passed away. He wrote a comment that traveling through areas of japan could be like walking backwards through time, but that he appreciated that he could never quite be a part of it. He would always be an outsider observing, even after living there for 50 years.

I think his views on the subject were somewhat romantic, but all the same, there are some advantages to being an outsider.

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Posted 3/17/13 , edited 3/17/13
To tell you the truth I think that there will be hard feelings against Americans for what happened in WW2. I know that we can't be forgiven for what we did, but we were neither the catalyst.

So I believe there will always be some cultural tension between Americans and the Japanese.

But I hope that they/we can get past it, because someday I want to go and visit Japan, maybe move depending on the visit :)

Plus Japanese girls are really hot
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19 / M / United States
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Posted 7/4/13


I'm Japanese, but I moved to America at the end of my middle school days, and right now I'm a high school graduate that's heading off to Uc Davis for college. One of the things I noticed when I first came to America was that most people don't even think that I'm a foreigner because there are so many ethnicities here. America is extremely multicultural, and is singularly the most unique country in the world in that aspect. I admit that many of my American friends in Japan have trouble fitting in while living in Japan, but on the other hand, a lot of my American friends DO fit in. It all falls into circumstances and differs from person to person. The thing is, you will always be a foreigner when you are in another country. BUT that is only to the people who don't know you well. Once you get to know people in Japan and make your circle of close-knit friends, you will not be seen as a foreigner to them. This is what many of my American friends living in Japan have told me.
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Posted 7/4/13


Some of the older generations still hold hate for America, but for the most part, tensions between America and Japan are gone (culturally, but not politically). Back in WW2, the majority of the people of Japan never went to war willingly. They were forced to by the Emperor and a large part of the military. i remember my grandparents told me stories of how the military came to houses that refused to participate in the war and killed their family members. What a lot of the older generation feel is shame rather than hate, but of course, Japanese people tend to have this weird pride so we have trouble admitting it haha

You should visit Japan! Go on a study abroad program and make friends in Japan! If you ever get hugged, highfived, and mobbed by random Japanese people when you go, it could possibly be me My friends and I do that all the time when we're in Japan together. We find every foreigner we can and just run up to them.
Posted 7/5/13 , edited 7/5/13
response to Ryucchi

no the majority of Japanese willingly participated in the War, ever heard of the ''Yamato spirit?'' as for the military
coming to houses, yeah they probably did. but back then you either was down with the Militia or you
was a Traitor. i just can't fathom though why somebody who is Japanese would even go to the Occident in the 1st place? at the end of the day
Minorities in the Occident faced discrimination and mistreatment, they wasn't able to build themselves up.
and YO remember the Internment Camps? the Japanese was treated like Jews in those Camps. wow, yeah.
Japanese had to have Cards or some ID with them and there was alot of anti-Japanese movements in the US at the time.
kinda like how Japan is now, if you're foreign you have to have a ID Card and it's hard to get a Job if you're of Foreign descent.
if it's one thing about the Japanese though it's their pride. the old generation maybe
Racist and Xenophobic, some of them probably hates me but you gotta admire their cultural pride, honor, loyalty
and the Japanese educational system that's something that is lacking
in Western society today. we're too dumb & illiterate.another thing is i think alot of people just fetishize Japan, like alot of Japanologists and Japanophiles. in the eyes of a Westerner, Japan is a DisneyLand Techno Fantasy Land with no Soul, but if you look into the
History Books that the Japanese don't teach their citisizens, the Japanese Imperial History itself is enough
to back up that Japanese Pride isn't weird. Japan ruled Asia, Japan was like the Nazi Germany of Asia, if it wasn't for the Western forces.
Japan would've been on-top, and NOW, Japan dominates in terms of technology & geeky media. overall Japan is alright. off course i'd never
want to visit Japan though, Xenophobia is a reality in Japan. there's good & bad people so you can't generalize. and i'm not prejudiced, but
me though i dont want to deal with that crap, im cool living in Norway and going about my business. i dont even wanna visit America.
god forbid, America is like 10 times worse then Japan. there's no ''Unity'' and it's everybody for themselves.
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Posted 8/7/13 , edited 8/7/13

blufisch200 wrote:

response to Ryucchi

no the majority of Japanese willingly participated in the War, ever heard of the ''Yamato spirit?'' as for the military
coming to houses, yeah they probably did. but back then you either was down with the Militia or you
was a Traitor. i just can't fathom though why somebody who is Japanese would even go to the Occident in the 1st place? at the end of the day
Minorities in the Occident faced discrimination and mistreatment, they wasn't able to build themselves up.
and YO remember the Internment Camps? the Japanese was treated like Jews in those Camps. wow, yeah.
Japanese had to have Cards or some ID with them and there was alot of anti-Japanese movements in the US at the time.
kinda like how Japan is now, if you're foreign you have to have a ID Card and it's hard to get a Job if you're of Foreign descent.
if it's one thing about the Japanese though it's their pride. the old generation maybe
Racist and Xenophobic, some of them probably hates me but you gotta admire their cultural pride, honor, loyalty
and the Japanese educational system that's something that is lacking
in Western society today. we're too dumb & illiterate.another thing is i think alot of people just fetishize Japan, like alot of Japanologists and Japanophiles. in the eyes of a Westerner, Japan is a DisneyLand Techno Fantasy Land with no Soul, but if you look into the
History Books that the Japanese don't teach their citisizens, the Japanese Imperial History itself is enough
to back up that Japanese Pride isn't weird. Japan ruled Asia, Japan was like the Nazi Germany of Asia, if it wasn't for the Western forces.
Japan would've been on-top, and NOW, Japan dominates in terms of technology & geeky media. overall Japan is alright. off course i'd never
want to visit Japan though, Xenophobia is a reality in Japan. there's good & bad people so you can't generalize. and i'm not prejudiced, but
me though i dont want to deal with that crap, im cool living in Norway and going about my business. i dont even wanna visit America.
god forbid, America is like 10 times worse then Japan. there's no ''Unity'' and it's everybody for themselves.


You can't "fathom" why people would move to America? It's simple. For opportunity. And for others, change. Some thrive in America and others don't. That's simply how it is for every country. Some fish like saltwater, some like fresh, some like to stay in the deeper waters while some enjoy the shallower waters. Though, I guess you're the type of fish that stays in the pond.

I don't think you have any validity when you attempt to speak for America, Japan, or anyone in the world in general when you are a recluse that is too afraid of experiencing different cultures.
"in Western society today. we're too dumb & illiterate" Mmm I can see it now. I guess all those big bounds and leaps in society, education, and technology were all just a part of my imagination. My bad.
Also xenophobia is something that is a reality throughout the WORLD. Just because there are xenophobic people in a country, it doesn't mean the majority of the population feels the same way.
"yeah they probably did. but back then you either was down with the Militia or you
was a Traitor" <--- That, right there, basically backs up my dainty little post very nicely. To top it off the "Yamato Spirit" was instilled in the people through imperial rule. It's a very large psychological part of systematic oppression in Japan during the rule of the emperors. It wasn't just something that was embraced by the people randomly; the yamato spirit was something that was instilled and ingrained into Japanese culture.

"in Western society today. we're too dumb & illiterate.another thing is i think alot of people just fetishize Japan, like alot of Japanologists and Japanophiles. in the eyes of a Westerner, Japan is a DisneyLand Techno Fantasy Land with no Soul"

"there's good & bad people so you can't generalize. and i'm not prejudiced"

Ahh but you are prejudiced, and you can generalize. You just demonstrated a beautiful display of lumping people together in one big group and generalizing their beliefs of a country. You also expressed a firm belief that every westerner, including yourself, lacks the ability to speak or read. But heck, you learn something new everyday right?

Also... I don't think it's even remotely accurate to compare modern Japan to Japanese internment camps in America from WW2. Oddly enough, I really don't. Weird, huh? Also, about foreigners having difficulty finding jobs in Japan, there are MANY MANY MANY MAAAAAAAAAAAAANY, I repeat, many countries in this very large world full of countries that make it difficult for foreigners to get jobs. And if certain employers refuse to hire someone because of their background, then that is an issue with those particular employers. not the entire country.
How could America be a country where everyone is for themselves? Did they somehow become the most powerful country in the world because everyone fended for themselves? Did America become the leader of the world through anger and hate towards each other? Perhaps lack of unity propelled America through success. No. America became what it is today because of the unity. Because of the huge diversity of cultures that gather in America.

Well, I guess even with all that other stuff, the main gist of it all is that the past is the past. Whether or not Japan was like Nazi Germany in Asia (which I agree with) or Japanese people were treated like crap in internment camps (i also agree with), I don't think it's very valid today. At least to our generation. I mean, honestly, there aren't that many WW2 veterans that are even alive. That's how far back in the past it is. This is a new generation, a new, different culture that has developed into something quite different than what it was in the past. Hatred, prejudice, racism... All that crap is certainly still widespread today, but it's definitely much much more minimal than back during WW2. It will be a very rare day and moment indeed when you are walking down a street in Japan or America, and some random person gives you a hard time because of your background. And if you do encounter problems often, then you're probably not strolling in an area you should be in.

I think it's important to move on past prejudices we hold over other countries and people. Instead of misinforming people that a country's people will hate them due to something that happened in the past, we should let them know that times have changed from the past. That many parts of the world are a lot more open than they were before.
Posted 8/8/13 , edited 8/9/13
@Response to Ryucchi

if you're of Minority background there's no
equal opportunities for you in America. and let's not lie
here, you signed up on this Forum to ''hook-up'' with
Japanophiles and exploit them, that's how much you suck. that's why you signed up
on this Forum, you're like the reverse-Japanophile. you
worship and love everything that is ''All-American'' SMH.
in terms of Equal Rights, Canada is alot better then
the US. 'cos Canada has alot of laws concerning equal
rights and stuff. now the Fish refference i didn't get.
i didn't speak for America nor Japan, i was just stating facts.
you can't prove i'm a recluse, but i can prove your a Twinkie
just based off you're Avatar, you're hobbies/interests/ the stuff you like and you're desgraceful behaviour. you even
called you're ''peoples'' pride weird, i'm guessing you're a Okinawan. i dont believe
you're really Japanese. MR MIYAGI JR. cos if you are i really feel bad for your mother. all that racism you experienced
in the US must've made you crazy huh? didnt you say that whenever you saw a non-Japanese you automaticly ran up to
to 'em to basicly harass 'em?
now you can believe what you want about me, but i have
befriended people of non-Western backgrounds so i'm not
prejudiced but i have my individuality and my beliefs so i always speak my mind and i treat people equaly the same.
Western education in contrast to Japanese education is
really different, if i'm dumb then so are you 'cos we both was taught stuff in
a Western school. in terms of Contributions to the World,
in the beginning West made most contributions that helped Japan alot but
after the War, Japan really came out with alot of helpful
technological stuff so overall, slightly mutual,IMO i feel like Japan has contribued more to society but i dont know much
about techno stuff.so i cant completely vouch for that . i never said
all Japanese was Xenophobic, but Xenophobia is a reality in Japan. possibly due to Foreign military occupations
in Japan or just plain hatred.. ''Yamato Pride'' is something you don't have
'cos you're a Westernised Twinkie who was born to
Japanese traitors. Yamato Pride equals Real Japanese
Pride and you don't have that. all you Japanese Americans are all the same,
you're Westernised, Stupide and a shame to the Japanese race. i doubt you're even Japanese
you're probably a Okinawan i'm sure of that. i never said
i wasn't able to read or speak, and i'm not lumping people.together
i'm just saying there's a large number of people who
under Western education don't get teached properly and
as a result don't really progess to the fullest extent. but that
core-relates to what is taught in Western education, THOUGH, there
might be cases where you have Western educational
facillities that teach real stuff so i can't just label it
all bad. that's a bad on my behalf, my bad.. you can compare
Japanese internment camps to modern Japan, not fully but slightly.but in some prefectures im guessing it's really great i.e Roppongi. you can believe what
you want to believe. America rules the World, and you know pretty
well that in America you are not an equal citisizen.
as long as you don't look White in America you won't
get the same treatment nor chances in Life. whether out of fear
or out of just pure racist POVs but it's the truth. even
in Hollywood there's no Asian American actors in
Hollywood that are doing great, nor in Music, so again u fail.
some have really made alot of indie movies and tryied to make a difference but their Voices ain't heard.
Racism is still alive in America, so there's no new generation.
people fear what's different y'know how that goes. and
you know darn well that if you're a minority in America
you will get a hard time walking on a Street. hate-crimes
based on racial background is still a reality not just in
America but also in Europe too i.e Russia. where Nazi guys just attack random non-White foreigners.
so yeah, but YO. let me just say this, Japan is a great Country. okay, Japan is
an amazing country BUT it has issues just like any other Country. believe me or not, i do honestly believe that.

EDIT> when i wrote that Response, i wasn't sure if he was Japanese or not so i responded. but a day after i wrote that
response to him, on this day aka 9th August, i foundout RYUCCHI isn't Japanese. he's a non-Japanese posing as someone who is Japanese online.
im not responding to people like that guy on CR, so if by some chance that Weaboo responds to this thread and says
stuff about me, im not even gonna respond to it. i dont have any interest in responding to a imposter. pluss going back and forth on a
Thread is a waste of time anyway

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30 / M / Sydney, Australia
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Posted 9/20/13
Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes, but it's not all bad.
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Posted 9/27/13
my friend lived in japan for three years. she lived in the same building as namie amuro! even went to the same school as her son. However some times old people would yell at her "oi Americajin go home!" she isnt even american haha.
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