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Is lying by Omission the same as telling an outright lie?
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Posted 12/22/12
It depends onwhat your with holding some things are best not fully knon, like hopeless dreamer said children don't need to full know every thing tell there old enogh to under stand
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Posted 12/23/12
As I said before. the question was not.. ideally worded.

I will re-ask it. as... When does honesty require 'full disclosure'?

I can give some clear examples. Unless you want to be a 'used car salesman' or a 'sleazy real estate agent', you're going to give full disclosure about all the issue you have with the car or house that you are selling. right? That's the honest thing to do?

Likewise with the STD example. sucks for getting a date perhaps but again it's the honest thing to do. Keeping that a secret from a pottential sexual partner with it's concrete consequences is harmfully dishonest no matter how you slice it. Conversely however, you're not required to announce as you shake hands with everyone you meet "Hi I have an STD!"

Let me postulate some situations where your right to privacy might trump the other person's need to know and see what you think?

1)You live in a jurisdiction with concealed carry of a firearm laws, and have acquired all the licenses and met all the requirements for said concealed firearm carry. When, if ever? are you required to inform others that there is a pistol on your person?

a) someone you know hates and fears firearms invites themselves into your presence perhaps even as a guest in your home or a passenger in your car. When are they entitled to know there is a gun in their presence? if at all?


2) you are one of the rare fortunate Trans-women who's surgery(ies) hormone therapy(ies) and original appearance all led to a near perfect transition. you ARE your new gender even at those most intimate bedtime moments. When, if ever, is someone who is becoming increasing intimate with you entitled to know you traded in your jock strap for a pair of pantyhose?

a) someone really doesn't like the concept of t-girls/bois, they make it clear that the very concept 'creeps them out' and appear affraid of 'freaks' like you. when, if ever, are you obliged to suggest that they get outside of ten-foot pole range of yourself?

3) When are you obliged to reveal to... Anyone... what your religious beliefs are?

a) should a job that has no spiritual component in it's description require that you embrace a particular spiritual belief to be acceptable to your potential employer?



I have my own answers to the above but I'd like to hear your opinions. I'm also curious if anyone can think of other scenarios where the line between 'Lie' and 'Omission' is ... foggy at best?


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Posted 12/23/12
That's a part of living, people; gaining discernment.
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Posted 12/23/12
Omissions (like lies) are not bad ONLY if you are doing it to protect an INNOCENT party from harm, be it physical or emotional. The problem lies in whether or not not telling the person is actually helping, making things worse, or delaying the inevitable. Other than that, it is the same as an outright lie, both in the eyes of the law and the church. I find it much easier to mind my own business (so I don't know anything) and not lie at all. It really isn't that hard.
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Posted 12/23/12 , edited 12/23/12
Most of those examples have a major issue. Do you trust the person you are with? Do you know the person you are with?

If you don't know if a person would carry a fire arm concealed, and that's important to you, then you getting a ride from them is stupid. If you KNOW the person you are dating has been sexually active in the past, and don't hold off on having sex until you know more about them, you are just asking to get STD's. I don't have anything against people that carry fire arms or are sexually active, but both are choices and both have their consequences.


I guess to answer your question, it's not your fault for omitting, but their fault for not knowing before acting. Ignorance is no excuse.
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Posted 12/23/12
For the original question, I believe a lie is a lie. Just like many others here. BUT of course, I guess context of the situation is always important. In my book, a lie of omission is where I ask you something, and get a response that is true but something is left out (when the other person knows it has an affect.) e.g. You ask your girlfriend what she did today. She responds with, "I just went out with a friend." This friend is her ex - and she knows if she tells you, you won't like it so she doesn't say anything. This is still a lie to me.

I don't consider me seeing something and then not saying anything about it a lie of omission, because no one has asked me. (I'm seeing these kinds of examples, lol.) In those situations, I would mention something if it's important. (Like the example with the ex wife earlier. P.S. Sorry about all of that.)


papagolfwhiskey wrote:






For your questions, this is only what I would do. This is what you were asking for, correct? Lol.



I'm sorry this is a long post.
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Posted 12/23/12

ohraii wrote:

For the original question, I believe a lie is a lie. Just like many others here. BUT of course, I guess context of the situation is always important. In my book, a lie of omission is where I ask you something, and get a response that is true but something is left out (when the other person knows it has an affect.) e.g. You ask your girlfriend what she did today. She responds with, "I just went out with a friend." This friend is her ex - and she knows if she tells you, you won't like it so she doesn't say anything. This is still a lie to me.

I don't consider me seeing something and then not saying anything about it a lie of omission, because no one has asked me. (I'm seeing these kinds of examples, lol.) In those situations, I would mention something if it's important. (Like the example with the ex wife earlier. P.S. Sorry about all of that.)


papagolfwhiskey wrote:






For your questions, this is only what I would do. This is what you were asking for, correct? Lol.



I'm sorry this is a long post.


No problem and I suppose , yes, in part I wanted you to know what you thought but more importantly I was trying to present situations where there might be leeway to be 'honest' but still omit things. I was wondering where you thought the line was being crossed.

Also since we were talking about lies and honesty I was less interested in what you would do. but where you thought the ethical border between omission of information that was none of the other person's affair and a lie of omission lay.

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Posted 12/23/12
Would not telling be grossly irresponsible and possibly allow or cause harm to someone? Is not telling taking away someones choice? Is not telling denying help to someone? Is not telling simply the easy option?
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Posted 12/23/12

ProudPlatypus wrote:

Would not telling be grossly irresponsible and possibly allow or cause harm to someone? Is not telling taking away someones choice? Is not telling denying help to someone? Is not telling simply the easy option?


did you read the examples I gave?

if you did then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

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Posted 12/23/12

metalsmith wrote:

Most of those examples have a major issue. Do you trust the person you are with? Do you know the person you are with?

If you don't know if a person would carry a fire arm concealed, and that's important to you, then you getting a ride from them is stupid. If you KNOW the person you are dating has been sexually active in the past, and don't hold off on having sex until you know more about them, you are just asking to get STD's. I don't have anything against people that carry fire arms or are sexually active, but both are choices and both have their consequences.


I guess to answer your question, it's not your fault for omitting, but their fault for not knowing before acting. Ignorance is no excuse.


Of course they are issues of competing rights.

if it was about weather or not I was required to tell someone what colour of underwear I was wearing it would be just as much a no-brain-er as asking weather a lie was the same as a lie.


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Posted 12/23/12
telling a truth that is false, if you honestly think it is true. Is that a lie as well?

I don't speak for things that I cannot guarantee. Therefore I omit where I have uncertainty. Just because someone says 'they don't want to scare away the young and hot soldiers' doesn't mean that they are cheating on their spouse while not wearing a wedding band.

Thus, I don't tell a person something a believe to be true unless specifically asked. Is that the same as omitting?
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Posted 12/24/12

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

did you read the examples I gave?

if you did then we are going to have to agree to disagree.



Oh no I hadn't read it at the time. I was seeking rather generally and that comes with the territory of being as wrong as I might be right depending.
As for your points. That's a lot of discussion material, a LOT of it.
Posted 12/24/12 , edited 12/24/12

BearSol wrote:


phogan wrote:

A lie is a lie is a lie regardless how it's accomplished.




BearSol wrote:

For anyone who thinks it's the same, here's a great example for you:

Wife: "Does this make me look fat?" (In this case it does)

Husband: "Are you kidding? You look beautiful." (Omission)
or
Husband: "Yes, but I still think you're beautiful." (Non-omission)

The second answer could take sex that night off the table and hurt her self-confidence.


The first one is really more of a dodge than a lie by omission, since you aren't actually omitting anything, you're just being vague.
Depending on the intonation when deliver the line, "Are you kidding?" could be taken as a less explicit denial, which would make
it an outright lie.

The second isn't even a lie.


The first is an omission by definition. Think you missed the point.

The second wasn't marked as a lie, it was marked as (Non-omission). Saying yes, when that's the truth obviously isn't a lie.

Want a example with a lie? Then just ask for it next time.

Wife: "Am I too old to pull this off?" (50 year old wearing pinky short-shorts with "Juicy" written on the ass, with wrinkly cheeks hanging out of the bottom)

Husband: "No" (Non-omission lie)

Husband: "You're beautiful no matter what you wear." (Omission)


Happy now? Can you wrap your mind around that one?



It's entirely possible I missed the point, cause I am not entirely sure what it is you're argument is.
You said in your original post "For anyone who thinks it's the same, here's a great example for you:", but I fail to see
how your example differentiates a lie by omission and an outright lie? Leaving aside the issue of whether the first is actually a lie by omission, second isn't even a lie. In your second example, their is effectively no difference.



Lying by omission is lying by either omitting certain facts or by failing to correct a misconception.In the case of the former, an example of this would be a car salesmen claiming a car to have amazing fuel economy while neglecting to mention that it has no engine and is completely immobile. In the case of the latter, could be a situation in which a misconception exists that the claimant is aware of but fails to correct, such as a person who wanders around a hospital dressed as a doctor, offering treatment while failing to mention that she is in fact just getting a kick out of pretending to be a doctor.


If just substituting a complement or the rhetorical "are you kidding me?" for the husbands actual opinion, thus technically omitting it, does make it a lie by omission then there is no difference between an outright lie and a lie by omission as demonstrated by your second example, both create a misconception and the husband true opinion isn't given.


I am not even sure what to make of, "The second answer could take sex that night off the table and hurt her self-confidence.", lies to protect feeling are ok?


.
Posted 12/24/12
The same or similar to?
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Posted 12/24/12

ProudPlatypus wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

did you read the examples I gave?

if you did then we are going to have to agree to disagree.



Oh no I hadn't read it at the time. I was seeking rather generally and that comes with the territory of being as wrong as I might be right depending.
As for your points. That's a lot of discussion material, a LOT of it.


(emphasis mine)

I should hope so. I think arguing weather a lie is a lie or not. is pointless. But I think there is real meat to what I think the is REAL question.

which I parse out as: Does Honesty ALWAYS REQUIRE 'full disclosure'?

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