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Thanking God for the Shootings
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20 / M / Finland
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Posted 12/23/12
I think that Westboro Baptists have a right to state their opinion about the case (even if it's a reasonable opinion). It's not like I would support their actions in any way. However I still appreciate free opinions that are stated for and against.
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 12/24/12

Kuriya wrote:

I think that Westboro Baptists have a right to state their opinion about the case (even if it's a reasonable opinion). It's not like I would support their actions in any way. However I still appreciate free opinions that are stated for and against.


They have the right to free speech, they, however, crossed the line into Hate Speech, and most of what they say are in bad taste. In fact, they would have been gaoled and fined if they had lived in any European country, but not America, because Hate Speech is legal here.
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20 / M / Finland
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Posted 12/24/12

longfenglim wrote:


Kuriya wrote:

I think that Westboro Baptists have a right to state their opinion about the case (even if it's a reasonable opinion). It's not like I would support their actions in any way. However I still appreciate free opinions that are stated for and against.


They have the right to free speech, they, however, crossed the line into Hate Speech, and most of what they say are in bad taste. In fact, they would have been gaoled and fined if they had lived in any European country, but not America, because Hate Speech is legal here.


Well in my country (Finland), which's located in Europe, this kind of speech would not have been most likely a punishable act. But yes I agree that kind of speech might spread unwished illustrations to people. However I think it wouldn't be right to prevent people doing so.
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 12/24/12

Kuriya wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


Kuriya wrote:

I think that Westboro Baptists have a right to state their opinion about the case (even if it's a reasonable opinion). It's not like I would support their actions in any way. However I still appreciate free opinions that are stated for and against.


They have the right to free speech, they, however, crossed the line into Hate Speech, and most of what they say are in bad taste. In fact, they would have been gaoled and fined if they had lived in any European country, but not America, because Hate Speech is legal here.


Well in my country (Finland), which's located in Europe, this kind of speech would not have been most likely a punishable act. But yes I agree that kind of speech might spread unwished illustrations to people. However I think it wouldn't be right to prevent people doing so.


Actually, I think their form of Hate Speech would probably land them in gaol in most of Europe (Finland included), or, at the very least, a fine.

According to the Finnish Penal Code, Ch. 11, Sec. 3:

Rikos ihmisyyttä vastaan

Joka osana siviiliväestöön kohdistuvaa laajamittaista tai järjestelmällistä hyökkäystä

1) surmaa tai orjuuttaa toisen, käy hänellä kauppaa tekemällä tarjouksen, ostamalla, myymällä tai vuokraamalla taikka kiduttaa häntä tai aiheuttaa hänelle muulla tavoin suurta kärsimystä tai vaikean vamman taikka vahingoittaa vakavasti hänen terveyttään taikka tuhoaa väestöä asettamalla sitä tai sen osaa hävittäviä elinehtoja tai muulla tavoin,

2) karkottaa tai pakolla siirtää alueella laillisesti oleskelevaa väestöä,

3) vangitsee toisen tai muuten riistää häneltä vapauden kansainvälisen oikeuden perustavaa laatua olevien määräysten vastaisesti taikka aiheuttaa vapautensa menettäneen tahdonvastaisen katoamisen,

4) raiskaa toisen, orjuuttaa häntä seksuaalisesti, pakottaa hänet prostituutioon, raskauteen tai sterilisaatioon taikka harjoittaa häntä vastaan muuta vastaavaa törkeää seksuaalista väkivaltaa tai

5) harjoittaa rotuerottelua taikka vainoaa tunnistettavissa olevaa ryhmää tai yhteisöä poliittisen mielipiteen, rodun, kansallisuuden, etnisen alkuperän, kulttuurin, uskonnon tai sukupuolen perusteella taikka niihin rinnastettavilla muilla perusteilla,

on tuomittava rikoksesta ihmisyyttä vastaan vankeuteen vähintään yhdeksi vuodeksi tai elinkaudeksi.

Yritys on rangaistava.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1889/18890039001#e-13


Which, according to a translation that I nicked off some site, says the following:


Section 3 - Crime against humanity
A person who, as part of a broad or systematic assault on civilian population,
1) kills or enslaves another, subjects him or her to trade by offer, purchase, sale or rent, or tortures him or her, or in another manner causes him or her considerable suffering or a serious injury or seriously harms his or her health or destroys a population by subjecting it or a part thereof to destructive living condition or in another manner,

2) deports or forcibly transfers population lawfully residing in an area,

3) takes a person as a prisoner or otherwise deprives him or her of his or her liberty in violation of fundamental provisions of international law or causes the involuntary disappearance of a person who has been deprived of his or her liberty,

4) rapes another, subjects him or her to sexual slavery, forces him or her into prostitution, pregnancy or sterilization or commits other corresponding aggravated sexual violence against him or her,

5) engages in racial discrimination or persecutes a recognizable group or community on the basis of political opinion, race, nationality, ethnic origin, culture, religion or gender or on other comparable grounds,

shall be sentenced for a crime against humanity to imprisonment for at least one year or for life.

An attempt is punishable.



Keep in mind, these people go beyond denying the Holocaust- they thank God that it kills the Jews, who are somehow responsible for their other enemies- the Homosexuals.
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20 / M / Finland
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Posted 12/24/12 , edited 12/24/12

longfenglim wrote:

Which, according to a translation that I nicked off some site, says the following:


Section 3 - Crime against humanity
A person who, as part of a broad or systematic assault on civilian population,
1) kills or enslaves another, subjects him or her to trade by offer, purchase, sale or rent, or tortures him or her, or in another manner causes him or her considerable suffering or a serious injury or seriously harms his or her health or destroys a population by subjecting it or a part thereof to destructive living condition or in another manner,

2) deports or forcibly transfers population lawfully residing in an area,

3) takes a person as a prisoner or otherwise deprives him or her of his or her liberty in violation of fundamental provisions of international law or causes the involuntary disappearance of a person who has been deprived of his or her liberty,

4) rapes another, subjects him or her to sexual slavery, forces him or her into prostitution, pregnancy or sterilization or commits other corresponding aggravated sexual violence against him or her,

5) engages in racial discrimination or persecutes a recognizable group or community on the basis of political opinion, race, nationality, ethnic origin, culture, religion or gender or on other comparable grounds,

shall be sentenced for a crime against humanity to imprisonment for at least one year or for life.

An attempt is punishable.



Keep in mind, these people go beyond denying the Holocaust- they thank God that it kills the Jews, who are somehow responsible for their other enemies- the Homosexuals.




^Yes we have laws for sedition, racial discriminations and such but does this kind of law(s) include that thanking God for killing would be a punishable act though? What I know they haven't incited anybody to do harm to anyone so I suppose it's not a crime against humanity then? Correct me if I'm wrong though.
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 12/24/12

Kuriya wrote:


longfenglim wrote:

Which, according to a translation that I nicked off some site, says the following:


Section 3 - Crime against humanity
A person who, as part of a broad or systematic assault on civilian population,
1) kills or enslaves another, subjects him or her to trade by offer, purchase, sale or rent, or tortures him or her, or in another manner causes him or her considerable suffering or a serious injury or seriously harms his or her health or destroys a population by subjecting it or a part thereof to destructive living condition or in another manner,

2) deports or forcibly transfers population lawfully residing in an area,

3) takes a person as a prisoner or otherwise deprives him or her of his or her liberty in violation of fundamental provisions of international law or causes the involuntary disappearance of a person who has been deprived of his or her liberty,

4) rapes another, subjects him or her to sexual slavery, forces him or her into prostitution, pregnancy or sterilization or commits other corresponding aggravated sexual violence against him or her,

5) engages in racial discrimination or persecutes a recognizable group or community on the basis of political opinion, race, nationality, ethnic origin, culture, religion or gender or on other comparable grounds,

shall be sentenced for a crime against humanity to imprisonment for at least one year or for life.

An attempt is punishable.



Keep in mind, these people go beyond denying the Holocaust- they thank God that it kills the Jews, who are somehow responsible for their other enemies- the Homosexuals.




^Yes we have laws for sedition, racial discriminations and such but does this kind of law(s) include that thanking God for killing would be a punishable act though? What I know they haven't incited anybody to do harm to anyone so I suppose it's not a crime against humanity then? Correct me if I'm wrong though.



But, if we are to follow what the text says strictly, it really doesn't have to go into incitement to violence, just that it does, in fact, constitute persecution, which, screaming at homosexuals, telling them they're going to hell and God hates them, and such, does qualify as such.
112 cr points
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20 / M / Finland
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Posted 12/24/12

longfenglim wrote:


Kuriya wrote:


longfenglim wrote:

Which, according to a translation that I nicked off some site, says the following:


Section 3 - Crime against humanity
A person who, as part of a broad or systematic assault on civilian population,
1) kills or enslaves another, subjects him or her to trade by offer, purchase, sale or rent, or tortures him or her, or in another manner causes him or her considerable suffering or a serious injury or seriously harms his or her health or destroys a population by subjecting it or a part thereof to destructive living condition or in another manner,

2) deports or forcibly transfers population lawfully residing in an area,

3) takes a person as a prisoner or otherwise deprives him or her of his or her liberty in violation of fundamental provisions of international law or causes the involuntary disappearance of a person who has been deprived of his or her liberty,

4) rapes another, subjects him or her to sexual slavery, forces him or her into prostitution, pregnancy or sterilization or commits other corresponding aggravated sexual violence against him or her,

5) engages in racial discrimination or persecutes a recognizable group or community on the basis of political opinion, race, nationality, ethnic origin, culture, religion or gender or on other comparable grounds,

shall be sentenced for a crime against humanity to imprisonment for at least one year or for life.

An attempt is punishable.



Keep in mind, these people go beyond denying the Holocaust- they thank God that it kills the Jews, who are somehow responsible for their other enemies- the Homosexuals.




^Yes we have laws for sedition, racial discriminations and such but does this kind of law(s) include that thanking God for killing would be a punishable act though? What I know they haven't incited anybody to do harm to anyone so I suppose it's not a crime against humanity then? Correct me if I'm wrong though.



But, if we are to follow what the text says strictly, it really doesn't have to go into incitement to violence, just that it does, in fact, constitute persecution, which, screaming at homosexuals, telling them they're going to hell and God hates them, and such, does qualify as such.



In your view you make an excellent point and I'd agree to it in a casual position. But for now I still remain a little skeptic.. Is the direct following of the law really that essential? Isn't law just a guiding root and in some single cases even changeable?
3476 cr points
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24 / M / Pandemonium
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Posted 12/27/12
Why are people still giving the WBC publicity and attention?
13085 cr points
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23 / M / South Bend, IN
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Posted 1/1/13
Wow...that's messed up. #1 For them to interpret this as "judgment" for accepting gay and lesbian unity is cruel. I highly doubt that God deliberately told these people that he was going to punish America in this way at all. #2 I believe that God has a plan for everything, yes, and that as much as we don't want to believe it, it was meant to happen. Everything and everyone exists in this world for a reason and its possible that the reason for those children to be there and to depart that day was to teach us a lesson on something, whatever the reason it hurts each and everyone of us. #3 THEY ARE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!! INNOCENT children who had done NOTHING to deserve the fate that they had dealt to them and for the church to say that is a lesson to teach the world is wrong. I pray for the families of those who have lost their children. And for those who say that they deserve that, they have NO right to play judge.
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 1/2/13

Palidin7 wrote:

Wow...that's messed up. #1 For them to interpret this as "judgment" for accepting gay and lesbian unity is cruel. I highly doubt that God deliberately told these people that he was going to punish America in this way at all. #2 I believe that God has a plan for everything, yes, and that as much as we don't want to believe it, it was meant to happen. Everything and everyone exists in this world for a reason and its possible that the reason for those children to be there and to depart that day was to teach us a lesson on something, whatever the reason it hurts each and everyone of us. #3 THEY ARE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!! INNOCENT children who had done NOTHING to deserve the fate that they had dealt to them and for the church to say that is a lesson to teach the world is wrong. I pray for the families of those who have lost their children. And for those who say that they deserve that, they have NO right to play judge.


No, they have the right to play judge and to publicly say what they do because we, Americans, have Freedom of Speech, no matter how tasteless it is.
13085 cr points
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23 / M / South Bend, IN
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Posted 1/2/13

longfenglim wrote:


Palidin7 wrote:

Wow...that's messed up. #1 For them to interpret this as "judgment" for accepting gay and lesbian unity is cruel. I highly doubt that God deliberately told these people that he was going to punish America in this way at all. #2 I believe that God has a plan for everything, yes, and that as much as we don't want to believe it, it was meant to happen. Everything and everyone exists in this world for a reason and its possible that the reason for those children to be there and to depart that day was to teach us a lesson on something, whatever the reason it hurts each and everyone of us. #3 THEY ARE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!! INNOCENT children who had done NOTHING to deserve the fate that they had dealt to them and for the church to say that is a lesson to teach the world is wrong. I pray for the families of those who have lost their children. And for those who say that they deserve that, they have NO right to play judge.


No, they have the right to play judge and to publicly say what they do because we, Americans, have Freedom of Speech, no matter how tasteless it is.


Your right the freedom of speech is definitely something we take hold of, please speak and tell the world is exactly what you think and feel however the fact the line between judging and speaking your mind are 2 different things. I support the freedom of speech wholeheartedly honestly I do. If we were to sit here and believe that every word that comes out of our mouths was the right word will we be. Not everyone can be right, but why point the finger to everyone else claim that they are wrong?
2106 cr points
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23 / M / Guess
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Posted 1/2/13

Palidin7 wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


Palidin7 wrote:

Wow...that's messed up. #1 For them to interpret this as "judgment" for accepting gay and lesbian unity is cruel. I highly doubt that God deliberately told these people that he was going to punish America in this way at all. #2 I believe that God has a plan for everything, yes, and that as much as we don't want to believe it, it was meant to happen. Everything and everyone exists in this world for a reason and its possible that the reason for those children to be there and to depart that day was to teach us a lesson on something, whatever the reason it hurts each and everyone of us. #3 THEY ARE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!! INNOCENT children who had done NOTHING to deserve the fate that they had dealt to them and for the church to say that is a lesson to teach the world is wrong. I pray for the families of those who have lost their children. And for those who say that they deserve that, they have NO right to play judge.


No, they have the right to play judge and to publicly say what they do because we, Americans, have Freedom of Speech, no matter how tasteless it is.


Your right the freedom of speech is definitely something we take hold of, please speak and tell the world is exactly what you think and feel however the fact the line between judging and speaking your mind are 2 different things. I support the freedom of speech wholeheartedly honestly I do. If we were to sit here and believe that every word that comes out of our mouths was the right word will we be. Not everyone can be right, but why point the finger to everyone else claim that they are wrong?


Guess what, that's included in your freedom of expression. That is why people can print books denying the Holocaust here, or have KKK members publicly march through black neighbourhoods, because we have Freedom of Speech for everyone, including people we do not like, or who make ill judgements. If someone wants to tell the world that God is punishing them for their tolerance of Homosexuality, and so brought forth this tragedy, they have just as much right to publicly state their position, protest, scream at passerbys, etc.
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