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What if the feminist movement never happened?
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Posted 1/26/13

Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?

Posted 1/26/13
Less bare boobies.
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Posted 1/26/13

miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?



I'm referring to the less in your face behavior women/girls used to have, they weren't afraid to show their softer side. Nowadays it's difficult to let that side of ourselves show because we're competing w/ men in the workplace and for some women in life in general.
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Posted 1/26/13

Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?



I'm referring to the less in your face behavior women/girls used to have, they weren't afraid to show their softer side. Nowadays it's difficult to let that side of ourselves show because we're competing w/ men in the workplace and for some women in life in general.


Women (especially poor women) worked before feminism, in all sorts of jobs including dangerous ones, like pulling carts in mines, feminism just got better treatment for them and access to education so they could take on more skilled employment.

The whole 'feminine' ideal sounds like some romantic notion that never really existed.

If any girl wants to throw on a dress and act 'lady-like' no-one is going to stop her.

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Posted 1/26/13
I don't think it would be a very good situation. Women run this world whether most realize it or not. There's a saying my dad used to tell me "Behind every man there is and always will be a woman be it his mother ,his daughter ,his wife ,or any other possibility." I don't know where it came from ,but I believe in it.
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Posted 1/26/13

miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?



I'm referring to the less in your face behavior women/girls used to have, they weren't afraid to show their softer side. Nowadays it's difficult to let that side of ourselves show because we're competing w/ men in the workplace and for some women in life in general.


Women (especially poor women) worked before feminism, in all sorts of jobs including dangerous ones, like pulling carts in mines, feminism just got better treatment for them and access to education so they could take on more skilled employment.

The whole 'feminine' ideal sounds like some romantic notion that never really existed.

If any girl wants to throw on a dress and act 'lady-like' no-one is going to stop her.


Well, I admit my views are based on U.S. not Irish histories and I'm not looking back 100+/- years. I actually used my grandmother and her circle of friends/colleagues as models so I'm looking from a point of the 2nd feminist movement (1960's-80's). My examples were all relatively successful business women for their time, my own grandmother not from impoverished means but probably at best just middle class of Irish descent was office manager for an international corporate law firm based in Boston and a divorced woman raising two children alone. She and her circle of friends were all hard working women but they all had an elegance that I never see anymore, alright 6 years ago I did meet one on a train but that was the last time. And just because a female puts on a dress or any other feminine accoutrement does not give her femininity.
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Posted 1/26/13

Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?



I'm referring to the less in your face behavior women/girls used to have, they weren't afraid to show their softer side. Nowadays it's difficult to let that side of ourselves show because we're competing w/ men in the workplace and for some women in life in general.


Women (especially poor women) worked before feminism, in all sorts of jobs including dangerous ones, like pulling carts in mines, feminism just got better treatment for them and access to education so they could take on more skilled employment.

The whole 'feminine' ideal sounds like some romantic notion that never really existed.

If any girl wants to throw on a dress and act 'lady-like' no-one is going to stop her.


Well, I admit my views are based on U.S. not Irish histories and I'm not looking back 100+/- years. I actually used my grandmother and her circle of friends/colleagues as models so I'm looking from a point of the 2nd feminist movement (1960's-80's). My examples were all relatively successful business women for their time, my own grandmother not from impoverished means but probably at best just middle class of Irish descent was office manager for an international corporate law firm based in Boston and a divorced woman raising two children alone. She and her circle of friends were all hard working women but they all had an elegance that I never see anymore, alright 6 years ago I did meet one on a train but that was the last time. And just because a female puts on a dress or any other feminine accoutrement does not give her femininity.


I'm confused here.

What is your idea of femininity then? It's different in many places.

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Posted 1/26/13
God only knows, to be honest.

To quote Queen Victoria though:


I am most anxious to enlist everyone who can speak or write to join in checking this mad, wicked folly of 'Women's Rights', with all its attendant horrors, on which her poor feeble sex is bent, forgetting every sense of womanly feelings and propriety. Feminists ought to get a good whipping. Were woman to 'unsex' themselves by claiming equality with men, they would become the most hateful, heathen and disgusting of beings and would surely perish without male protection


Though spoken during her reign, she seemed to have a remarkable amount of foresight. The problem with feminism is that it has moved a disproportionate number of women to the workspace. While women have always been teachers,nurses,etc. only after feminism happened did they start taking jobs in fields like medicine, engineering, etc.

At first glance, this seems great. Ideally, more brilliant minds tackling the worlds toughest problems should mean that humanity will come to a utopia (or at least a place with fewer problems) all the sooner. The issue though, is that women become pregnant. Sometimes they go back to their jobs, from my experience most do not. While this is their choice, the issue comes with the time lost. In most professions, losing months of productivity is difficult enough to overcome. For people on the cutting edge of R&D, this factor multiplies. It's been a while since I've been in heavy industry, but even the most bureaucratic of organizations can change physical plants over the course of a year.

Another issue with feminism is that it has disproportionately changed colleges. Though the majority of college students are females, most of them seem to study fields with extremely limited applications. Case in point, I TA a senior level electrical engineering class. There are no females this semester. Usually there is one or two out of a class size of twenty. If you walk over to the music department though, they always have an excess of sopranos. This leads to two issues.

First is apparent income disparity. For whatever reason, feminists love to claim that there is an income disparity between women and men. On the aggregate, that is true because men take higher paying jobs as well as riskier ones. In a capitalistic society, that translates to more money. When normalized with respect to job description though, the disparity disappears. Honestly, this reference does a pretty good job of explaing it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8212662/Gender-pay-gap-down-to-womens-lifestyle-choices.html

The other issue occurs in that they always complain about workspace practices being unfair. Women are not a minority, though they get preferential status when applying for most positions. If the preferential treatment ended there, it would be fine. The issue is it extends largely into society today. My dad told me that people used to stop and help people at the side of the road all the time. People would fear getting some sort of lawsuit these days for doing that. With women, that can also end up placing someone in prison especially if a guy helps them.

I honestly cannot say what the world would be like without feminism. While it has made it acceptable for women to do more things, I am not entirely sure if that benefit is worth the price we are paying.


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Posted 1/27/13 , edited 1/27/13

johnsilver242 wrote:

God only knows, to be honest.

To quote Queen Victoria though:


I am most anxious to enlist everyone who can speak or write to join in checking this mad, wicked folly of 'Women's Rights', with all its attendant horrors, on which her poor feeble sex is bent, forgetting every sense of womanly feelings and propriety. Feminists ought to get a good whipping. Were woman to 'unsex' themselves by claiming equality with men, they would become the most hateful, heathen and disgusting of beings and would surely perish without male protection


Though spoken during her reign, she seemed to have a remarkable amount of foresight. The problem with feminism is that it has moved a disproportionate number of women to the workspace. While women have always been teachers,nurses,etc. only after feminism happened did they start taking jobs in fields like medicine, engineering, etc.

At first glance, this seems great. Ideally, more brilliant minds tackling the worlds toughest problems should mean that humanity will come to a utopia (or at least a place with fewer problems) all the sooner. The issue though, is that women become pregnant. Sometimes they go back to their jobs, from my experience most do not. While this is their choice, the issue comes with the time lost. In most professions, losing months of productivity is difficult enough to overcome. For people on the cutting edge of R&D, this factor multiplies. It's been a while since I've been in heavy industry, but even the most bureaucratic of organizations can change physical plants over the course of a year.


I disagree with your Economic assessment, in that it, overall, increases the productivity of females. By putting women to work, we are benifitting from a greater amount of labour (no matter how temporary), which would generate a greater amount of goods. Now, suppose that a woman did get pregnant, and leave the job, we can always hire from the Reserve Army of Labour to replace them with someone else, possibly another equally qualified woman, in the mean time, the other lady has given birth, and this child adds to the population of future potential workers, which, I think, is doubly as efficient as the former state of affairs, where women are only allowed to be productive in a single area, that is, in the production of future workers.


Another issue with feminism is that it has disproportionately changed colleges. Though the majority of college students are females, most of them seem to study fields with extremely limited applications. Case in point, I TA a senior level electrical engineering class. There are no females this semester. Usually there is one or two out of a class size of twenty. If you walk over to the music department though, they always have an excess of sopranos. This leads to two issues.



I do not see how this is the fault of the Feminist movement, so much as our colleges allow people to major in areas with extremely limited application. While it is true that man cannot live by bread alone, those fields do have limited utility, as you mentioned, so, as a compromise, I suggest that we keep those classes to study- in between classes which do have utility.



First is apparent income disparity. For whatever reason, feminists love to claim that there is an income disparity between women and men. On the aggregate, that is true because men take higher paying jobs as well as riskier ones. In a capitalistic society, that translates to more money. When normalized with respect to job description though, the disparity disappears. Honestly, this reference does a pretty good job of explaing it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8212662/Gender-pay-gap-down-to-womens-lifestyle-choices.html


While I agree, in broad, over the fact that women tend to have lower paying jobs, what the problem is is that women are less likely to be hired for the same job as men, if they applied to the same position.

Also, I am kind of suspicious when it comes to the Telegraph, as it has a well known editorial position (it is even more Blue than the Gaurdian is Red), and the paper makes no mention of the fact that companies are biased in their selection.


The other issue occurs in that they always complain about workspace practices being unfair. Women are not a minority, though they get preferential status when applying for most positions. If the preferential treatment ended there, it would be fine. The issue is it extends largely into society today. My dad told me that people used to stop and help people at the side of the road all the time. People would fear getting some sort of lawsuit these days for doing that. With women, that can also end up placing someone in prison especially if a guy helps them.


I don't see the corrolation being the increase in citizen apathy, and the fact that women now have near equal rights to men.


I honestly cannot say what the world would be like without feminism. While it has made it acceptable for women to do more things, I am not entirely sure if that benefit is worth the price we are paying.


That's a very utilitarian way of looking at things- isn't liberty and egality as prize in and of itself?
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Posted 1/27/13
The world would have exploded.

I'm not even kidding.

Guys are dicks.
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Posted 1/27/13
Well, that's any easy question to answer. Men would still treat us as if the only purpose we serve is to be controlled by them. They would probably also believe that they are the better human beings in existence. However, you have to remember that men before that movement were still trying to except darker skinned men and well quite frankly the thought of giving women rights had never really occured to them until after they recogonized blacks. This in itself says just how much women were oppressed at the time, it's basically saying just how much we meant to men. Which I think is completely unjust. I'm saying this not just because I am a girl, but because I've always believed that the world operates on equality, and well without men people wouldn't be alive and also without women mankind couldn't survive. In other words, it takes two to haves of a circle to make a complete one. Yet again, after the movement women became more indpendent and well... they kinda took extreme advantage of the situation. By this I simply mean that most husbands don't dare to tick off their wifes and most sons don't even think about it. However, even in today's society women still struggle for equality when it comes to political positions, job pay, and well... respect. In conclusion, I believe people are all equal, after all gays, asians, whites, blacks, and every other type of human being are just that... human beings. Also if I offended anyone reading this comment, I am very sorry... trust me I know how touchy this topic can be. P.S: This all from the mind of a 14 year old female.
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Posted 1/28/13
Well the fight for women's rights is still ongoing but I think it's something that would have happened eventually as people fight against cruelty and oppression. It's hard to imagine a "what if" situation to this because I don't believe just one event or one movement lead to feminism but more that it happened alongside many other movements and developments in science, war, education, work, law, economy, etc... All this leading to the slow realisation that many of the oppressive laws and practices in place were actually in the way of progress.
Posted 1/28/13
Feminism has done some great things, but at the same time lines need to be drawn. A woman should not be able to get away with murder. Physical and emotional abuse, while despicable, is not a capital crime punishable by some sickening form of "street justice". Feminism is about equal justice, empowering women, not belittling men. If I could deliver one message to radical feminists it would be this: there is no justification for sexism and bigotry.
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Posted 2/8/13

miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:


miserykitsune wrote:


Boganis wrote:

The feminist movement would have been great if only the female could have remained feminine.


What does that even mean?

I don't see too many women with beards running about, do you?



I'm referring to the less in your face behavior women/girls used to have, they weren't afraid to show their softer side. Nowadays it's difficult to let that side of ourselves show because we're competing w/ men in the workplace and for some women in life in general.


Women (especially poor women) worked before feminism, in all sorts of jobs including dangerous ones, like pulling carts in mines, feminism just got better treatment for them and access to education so they could take on more skilled employment.

The whole 'feminine' ideal sounds like some romantic notion that never really existed.

If any girl wants to throw on a dress and act 'lady-like' no-one is going to stop her.


Well, I admit my views are based on U.S. not Irish histories and I'm not looking back 100+/- years. I actually used my grandmother and her circle of friends/colleagues as models so I'm looking from a point of the 2nd feminist movement (1960's-80's). My examples were all relatively successful business women for their time, my own grandmother not from impoverished means but probably at best just middle class of Irish descent was office manager for an international corporate law firm based in Boston and a divorced woman raising two children alone. She and her circle of friends were all hard working women but they all had an elegance that I never see anymore, alright 6 years ago I did meet one on a train but that was the last time. And just because a female puts on a dress or any other feminine accoutrement does not give her femininity.


I'm confused here.

What is your idea of femininity then? It's different in many places.


I suppose the form of femininity I'm referring to is a manner of conducting oneself without the look or attitude that you were constantly raging war against the whole of humanity. I carry this same demeaning tendency, but then again the world is now a very different place.
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Posted 2/8/13 , edited 2/8/13
Feminism has aspects of good, and if they passed their demands it would probably be more equal in our society. Yet, it somewhat bugs me in the sence that it focuses souly on females.

Why? Because in some rights women have more then men. They say men have more rights - which may be the case - but if you aim for equality then both sides must be part of the story.

For example, women have more rights then men in a seperated relationship to keep the baby because they carried it for the nine months. While some may believe this to be correct, this is not the mans fault that he could not bare a child, and I believe they should have equal rights in bringing up a child. While she may have carried it for 9 months, the baby is going to live for much longer periods of time and it is a shame many fathers cannot watch them grow up because of divorse/seperation. Just as it's not a womens fault for -usually- being physically weaker then men, it's not a man's fault he cannot bare children. It's simply a gender thing, how our bodies are and such, and if feminists aim for equality they need to bare this in mind.

Another example could be the breast cancer movement/run. I understand that women made this happen, yet due to being extremely published in the media, it shoves testicular cancer to the side often (which kills just as many people). And before people say this is a problem with the media, the media is part of society, which feminism strives to make 'equal'.

I honestly think if we strive for equality, there should be no 'feminism' movements, but simply 'equality' ones. Far less one sided.

If feminist movements -never- happened, I think things would simply be behind time a little in how women are viewed. Since homosexuality was legalized around 40 years ago, I seem to think that rights for women would have probably still happened before that passed, yet maybe things would've been slower for both females and homosexuals with their rights in society. Because well, if females didn't have rights as quick as they did due to the movements, legalizing homosexuals would have probably been delayed more. However I think it would've happened eventually. Generations start to view things different, and in our expanding world with far more people every generation, views will get stronger and let out more. I think from inventions such as the internet equality would've happened sooner or later.

The feminism movements did offer as good role models, though, so it wasn't all for nothing. They made females get more rights quicker then it would've been otherwise and aspire women to take careers and less of the 'housewife' role. I think the movements of the past simply pushed society forward, and without them I think we'd still be in generally the same world, but simply a little back a bit.

It's hard to say 'what if they never happened', because as we have 7 billion people in the world, somewhere they would've.

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