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Black holes are confusing!
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Posted 2/7/13

Taurelion wrote:


Then you really don't quite understand the concept of a singularity after all; as I had stated in my last post, I considered that you did and simply weren't effective at explaining the concept. A singularity has no dimensions at all; the concept of "size" as you just defined it does not apply to it.


You really don't understand the concept of you proving me right while trying to prove me wrong. You can't comback from it.
You obviously also don't understand "relative or proportionate dimensions" as a definition for the word size.
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Posted 2/7/13

Gyava wrote:


BearSol wrote:

You can't prove anything about a black hole, you can only theorize. So stop trying to tell each other how wrong they are and how right you are.


This. I've only listened to an in-depth discussion about black holes from a MIT professor who came to visit us for physics (I did not know half of what he was trying to explain to be honest..), but what I do know is that us humans know only so little about the black hole. It would be amazing if some of our CR members hit some right answers, but as far as I'm concerned, he said almost all black hole conversations boil down to mere theories.


Thank you! Someone who understands.
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Posted 2/7/13 , edited 2/7/13

BearSol wrote:
You really don't understand the concept of you proving me right while trying to prove me wrong. You can't comback from it.
You obviously also don't understand "relative or proportionate dimensions" as a definition for the word size.


Then explain what you mean by "relative or proportionate dimensions", and please do so without using made-up terms (such as "relative or proportionate dimensions", neither of which is an actual scientific term) like you have for your other posts.
Are you referring to spatial dimensions? (i.e. length, width, height), because a singularity has none of those.
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Posted 2/7/13
So the right thing to say about this matter is that we all wrong? science
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Posted 2/7/13

Liahna wrote:

So the right thing to say about this matter is that we all wrong? science


Nobody knows shit, that is a fact.
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Posted 2/7/13
People get so into these discussions and its pointless yes I am only 16 and so yes I'm still in highschool so I don't truly grasp all of the information being spewed out but one thing I do know is that science is full of theories and proves nothing therefor trying to prove somebody wrong with science is also pointless
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Posted 2/7/13 , edited 2/7/13
Shamelessly stolen from reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/f1lgu/what_would_happen_if_the_event_horizons_of_two/)

Imagine, just for a moment, that you are aboard a spaceship equipped with a magical engine capable of accelerating you to any arbitrarily high velocity. This is absolutely and utterly impossible, but it turns out it'll be okay, for reasons you'll see in a second.
Because you know your engine can push you faster than the speed of light, you have no fear of black holes. In the interest of scientific curiosity, you allow yourself to fall through the event horizon of one. And not just any black hole, but rather a carefully chosen one, one sufficiently massive that its event horizon lies quite far from its center. This is so you'll have plenty of time between crossing the event horizon and approaching the region of insane gravitational gradient near the center to make your observations and escape again.
As you fall toward the black hole, you notice some things which strike you as highly unusual, but because you know your general relativity they do not shock or frighten you. First, the stars behind you — that is, in the direction that points away from the black hole — grow much brighter. The light from those stars, falling in toward the black hole, is being blue-shifted by the gravitation; light that was formerly too dim to see, in the deep infrared, is boosted to the point of visibility.
Simultaneously, the black patch of sky that is the event horizon seems to grow strangely. You know from basic geometry that, at this distance, the black hole should subtend about a half a degree of your view — it should, in other words, be about the same size as the full moon as seen from the surface of the Earth. Except it isn't. In fact, it fills half your view. Half of the sky, from notional horizon to notional horizon, is pure, empty blackness. And all the other stars, nearly the whole sky full of stars, are crowded into the hemisphere that lies behind you.
As you continue to fall, the event horizon opens up beneath you, so you feel as if you're descending into a featureless black bowl. Meanwhile, the stars become more and more crowded into a circular region of sky centered on the point immediately aft. The event horizon does not obscure the stars; you can watch a star just at the edge of the event horizon for as long as you like and you'll never see it slip behind the black hole. Rather, the field of view through which you see the rest of the universe gets smaller and smaller, as if you're experiencing tunnel-vision.
Finally, just before you're about to cross the event horizon, you see the entire rest of the observable universe contract to a single, brilliant point immediately behind you. If you train your telescope on that point, you'll see not only the light from all the stars and galaxies, but also a curious dim red glow. This is the cosmic microwave background, boosted to visibility by the intense gravitation of the black hole.
And then the point goes out. All at once, as if God turned off the switch.
You have crossed the event horizon of the black hole.
Focusing on the task at hand, knowing that you have limited time before you must fire up your magical spaceship engine and escape the black hole, you turn to your observations. Except you don't see anything. No light is falling on any of your telescopes. The view out your windows is blacker than mere black; you are looking at non-existence. There is nothing to see, nothing to observe.
You know that somewhere ahead of you lies the singularity … or at least, whatever the universe deems fit to exist at the point where our mathematics fails. But you have no way of observing it. Your mission is a failure.
Disappointed, you decide to end your adventure. You attempt to turn your ship around, such that your magical engine is pointing toward the singularity and so you can thrust yourself away at whatever arbitrarily high velocity is necessary to escape the black hole's hellish gravitation. But you are thwarted.
Your spaceship has sensitive instruments that are designed to detect the gradient of gravitation, so you can orient yourself. These instruments should point straight toward the singularity, allowing you to point your ship in the right direction to escape. Except the instruments are going haywire. They seem to indicate that the singularity lies all around you. In every direction, the gradient of gravitation increases. If you are to believe your instruments, you are at the point of lowest gravitation inside the event horizon, and every direction points "downhill" toward the center of the black hole. So any direction you thrust your spaceship will push you closer to the singularity and your death.
This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.
But it isn't. It's the absolute, literal truth. Inside the event horizon of a black hole, there is no way out. There are no directions of space that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.
In fact, this is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.
Your magical infinitely-accelerating engine is of no use to you … because you cannot find a direction in which to point it. The singularity is all around you, in every direction you look.

And it is getting closer.
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Posted 2/7/13

Taedrin wrote:

Shamelessly stolen from reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/f1lgu/what_would_happen_if_the_event_horizons_of_two/)

Imagine, just for a moment, that you are aboard a spaceship equipped with a magical engine capable of accelerating you to any arbitrarily high velocity. This is absolutely and utterly impossible, but it turns out it'll be okay, for reasons you'll see in a second.
Because you know your engine can push you faster than the speed of light, you have no fear of black holes. In the interest of scientific curiosity, you allow yourself to fall through the event horizon of one. And not just any black hole, but rather a carefully chosen one, one sufficiently massive that its event horizon lies quite far from its center. This is so you'll have plenty of time between crossing the event horizon and approaching the region of insane gravitational gradient near the center to make your observations and escape again.
As you fall toward the black hole, you notice some things which strike you as highly unusual, but because you know your general relativity they do not shock or frighten you. First, the stars behind you — that is, in the direction that points away from the black hole — grow much brighter. The light from those stars, falling in toward the black hole, is being blue-shifted by the gravitation; light that was formerly too dim to see, in the deep infrared, is boosted to the point of visibility.
Simultaneously, the black patch of sky that is the event horizon seems to grow strangely. You know from basic geometry that, at this distance, the black hole should subtend about a half a degree of your view — it should, in other words, be about the same size as the full moon as seen from the surface of the Earth. Except it isn't. In fact, it fills half your view. Half of the sky, from notional horizon to notional horizon, is pure, empty blackness. And all the other stars, nearly the whole sky full of stars, are crowded into the hemisphere that lies behind you.
As you continue to fall, the event horizon opens up beneath you, so you feel as if you're descending into a featureless black bowl. Meanwhile, the stars become more and more crowded into a circular region of sky centered on the point immediately aft. The event horizon does not obscure the stars; you can watch a star just at the edge of the event horizon for as long as you like and you'll never see it slip behind the black hole. Rather, the field of view through which you see the rest of the universe gets smaller and smaller, as if you're experiencing tunnel-vision.
Finally, just before you're about to cross the event horizon, you see the entire rest of the observable universe contract to a single, brilliant point immediately behind you. If you train your telescope on that point, you'll see not only the light from all the stars and galaxies, but also a curious dim red glow. This is the cosmic microwave background, boosted to visibility by the intense gravitation of the black hole.
And then the point goes out. All at once, as if God turned off the switch.
You have crossed the event horizon of the black hole.
Focusing on the task at hand, knowing that you have limited time before you must fire up your magical spaceship engine and escape the black hole, you turn to your observations. Except you don't see anything. No light is falling on any of your telescopes. The view out your windows is blacker than mere black; you are looking at non-existence. There is nothing to see, nothing to observe.
You know that somewhere ahead of you lies the singularity … or at least, whatever the universe deems fit to exist at the point where our mathematics fails. But you have no way of observing it. Your mission is a failure.
Disappointed, you decide to end your adventure. You attempt to turn your ship around, such that your magical engine is pointing toward the singularity and so you can thrust yourself away at whatever arbitrarily high velocity is necessary to escape the black hole's hellish gravitation. But you are thwarted.
Your spaceship has sensitive instruments that are designed to detect the gradient of gravitation, so you can orient yourself. These instruments should point straight toward the singularity, allowing you to point your ship in the right direction to escape. Except the instruments are going haywire. They seem to indicate that the singularity lies all around you. In every direction, the gradient of gravitation increases. If you are to believe your instruments, you are at the point of lowest gravitation inside the event horizon, and every direction points "downhill" toward the center of the black hole. So any direction you thrust your spaceship will push you closer to the singularity and your death.
This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.
But it isn't. It's the absolute, literal truth. Inside the event horizon of a black hole, there is no way out. There are no directions of space that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.
In fact, this is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.
Your magical infinitely-accelerating engine is of no use to you … because you cannot find a direction in which to point it. The singularity is all around you, in every direction you look.

And it is getting closer.

No words can describe the amount of awesome in that post.
Posted 2/8/13
~ lol only the darth vader knows about black holes :3
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Posted 2/8/13

Taurelion wrote:


BearSol wrote:
You really don't understand the concept of you proving me right while trying to prove me wrong. You can't comback from it.
You obviously also don't understand "relative or proportionate dimensions" as a definition for the word size.


Then explain what you mean by "relative or proportionate dimensions", and please do so without using made-up terms (such as "relative or proportionate dimensions", neither of which is an actual scientific term) like you have for your other posts.
Are you referring to spatial dimensions? (i.e. length, width, height), because a singularity has none of those.


Cambridge University disagrees with you, and as you deem NASA more of an expert than I, I will deem Cambridge University as more of an expert than you.



Now, DIE TROLL! DIE!
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Posted 2/8/13
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Posted 2/8/13

mhibicke wrote:


Nyuboom wrote:
That is something you should ask a scientist about.

I am a scientist, although this is not my field. Mipegg, however, is a theoretical physicist and his answers on this subject are not only reliable, but easy to follow.

BearSol wrote:
Consider a loaf of bread. If you crush it, you can make it pretty small. However, if you crush it with something containing immense force, you can make it even smaller. Crush it with something containing the force of a galaxy and the ignorant would assume it was no more. It would still be there, just too small for us to detect.

Yeah... until it becomes dense enough to bend space-time, and then it has no volume (despite having mass). Like Newtonian physics, common sense is unreliable at the quantum level. One of the reasons that we can only detect black holes by measuring gravity is because space-time warps around them in such a way that they do not actually occupy any space. Weird, but currently the accepted model.
Don't stress out too much if it just seems wrong. I had to do the math before I would believe in relativity, because it seemed too counter intuitive to be credible.
Like I said earlier, this isn't my field. I work with rat models to investigate atypical anxiolytics and neurotrophic drugs to treat neurodegenerative diseases and mood disorders.


Thank you!!! I will need those neurodegenerative disease fighting drugs when I'm older do to too much "college". As for the mood disorders I'm already screwed.
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Posted 2/8/13

moneygrip3030 wrote:
Thank you!!! I will need those neurodegenerative disease fighting drugs when I'm older do to too much "college". As for the mood disorders I'm already screwed.

You are welcome! Major depressive disorder is correlated with neurodegeneration, and antidepressants stimulate re-growth, so it's not surprising that neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and other kinds of dementia are often comorbid with depression. Not that this has anything to do with black holes, I just like talking about it.
Anyway, I am working on discovery of new drugs that bypass the serotoninergic pathways and hopefully result in fast-acting antidepressants/anxiolytics that don't screw up your libido or make you a shitty driver.
Posted 2/8/13
I can see clearly that nobody here is giving good responses so i shall offer my knowledge.

a black hole can be found in many places in fact even in my eyes there are black circles ( aka holes ) and they do take up space cuz when i look in the mirror i can see they are about half my eye size apparantly according to books these holes that are everywhere and found in anything start off as babys basically and are any colour usually to start when newborn they are yellow but sometimes red and when they want to they can clone themselves inside the hole and become bigger there is one in space that got exiled from the earth when nobody wanted him near them cuz it used to swallow anything around it even ducks and small orphans snow and raccoons so they tried to kill it but whatever they killed it with was basically not killing it the black hole was just having none of it ( apparantly it was quite racist as well to people and was kicked off about little things that no one was bothered with ) but after this they put sleeping gas next to it this is in some field where they used to kill children that were trick or treating and the sleeping gas made it lie flat and it fell underground and burnt then screamed and leapt over the moon and the moon had died so now when you think you see a moon its just the sun which went from yellow to white because of how everything is made of colours that change and the moon changes during the night thats why werewolves come out only on one night when its full cuz they have to howl at the full moon to make it day again if this doesnt happen some carnivals and circuses actually close cuz the performers and circus sideshow men and jugglers worship the night.
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Posted 2/8/13
All I know is that its a massive hole in space that absorbs light around it. Black holes can not be seen currently but we know they exist as the the middle of the Milky Way Galaxy is a black hole giving the swirl of the galaxy. The more light the hole absorbs the bigger it becomes increasing the amount of light it can absorb. Black holes can sometimes form when a star dies.
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