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Post Reply Israel and Palestine
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Posted 1/31/13 , edited 1/31/13

ichigofes12 wrote:

theres no point in arguing with this longfenglim all he does is never admit the point plus he was a pain to many in my post he would just keep going hes one sick human. Plus I agree with a lot here but what are they supposed to do when they had there land stolen plus they always getting attacked and always getting bullied and dont forget the occupation.


Plus you didn't answer to anything, plus it seems that you are aware you are intellectually incapable of directly answering it, plus you use the word sick in reference to both me and Israel, and then speak about the Arabs as 'being attacked and bullied', conviently forgetting that they struck first, plus you spend several post completely denying all facts and all reason, plus you may as well worship me rather than your Allah, because he hasn't made you any wiser, and, if you would listen to me, you may attain a level of genius comparable with than of a chimpanzee and rise beyond your current position of being less intelligent than brainless, single-cell organism in the bottom of the sea.
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Posted 1/31/13

AruarianDance wrote:

This is why I detest the Anti-Zionists, they always resort to the pathetic- 'Oh look at how they suffer, evil Israel.'

this is my favourite, so... are you a sociopath like the IDF and pro war advocates?


Are you an antisemite who support Palestinians bombing innocent civilians?

Pathos gets us nowhere, and any detached and rational analysis would confirm my position.
Posted 2/1/13

longfenglim wrote:


AruarianDance wrote:

This is why I detest the Anti-Zionists, they always resort to the pathetic- 'Oh look at how they suffer, evil Israel.'

this is my favourite, so... are you a sociopath like the IDF and pro war advocates?


Are you an antisemite who support Palestinians bombing innocent civilians?

Pathos gets us nowhere, and any detached and rational analysis would confirm my position.


Anti semite would imply I am against Jews when I am not, I am against innocent lives being lost and when I see it happening I don't want to take sides, I just support the ending of it all because it's damaging and I would never want it happening to me or my family. But the Palestinians are quite literally helpless, there rocket fire is out of retaliation for having their land stolen and their lives wrecked by awful anti humane foreign policy and imperialism.
Posted 2/1/13

longfenglim wrote:


AruarianDance wrote:



You don't stop chatting complete nonsense do you. there's too many places to even start when arguing with someone who openly supports a terror state armed with advanced weaponry and is the largest receiver of US foreign "aid" firing rockets in to the most dense place on earth full of civilians and refugees locked in a ghetto. people don't like having their lands occupied, have you not heard of resistance? Israel even blocked the UN from delivering food, humanitarian aid, broke ceasefires, aims at schools and water supplies, bans items like chocolate and toothbrushes because they're considered "terrorist weapons", pillages towns... god damn, do you have any idea who advocates this disaster? the same people who set up propaganda campaigns, made contracts with corporations to profit from a conflict in Iraq which took an unfathomable amount of human life and made statements like "one thing we don't want to do is destroy Iraq's infrastructure because in a few days we'll own that place" the fundamentals of Zionism are racist to the core.... As the the Al Qaeda thing, did you know who armed them and funded them? You better take a bigger look at America's involvement overseas in their real mission, because it's not weapon inspections and liberation.



It is interesting that you use emotionally laden word in lieu of an argument, for example, saying that Israel is a terror state, that there are 'refugees locked in a ghetto', they are stealing the Palestinian land, etc., all these pathetic arguments that are not used so much to bring up a point as to rile up emotion. From the other end, one may say that you are lacking in empathy and human emotion to ignore the death wrought by the attacks of the Palestinians upon the civilians of Israel, who have done no crime but live there, including those that are born in the land of Israel and so, cannot even be considered 'foriegners', including nine year old Osher Twito who lost his leg in a bombing, or two teenagers, Koby Mandell and Yosef Ishran, who were found crushed and buried beneath stones. Alas, such gets one no where, because it detract from a calm, analytic assesment of the situation.

You first say that Israel is a 'terror state' which recieve a substantial amount of US aid and wontonly fire rockets to kill civilians and refugees. This, of course, has three flaws-

a. The term terror state is never defined, in that all states, to a degree, uses some form of terror, whether by terror of punishment they hope to coerce its population to respect the law, or by terror of army or economy they hope to assert and further their sphere of influence in whatever area. It would seem that Terror has been reduced to a word that applies only to positions you disagree with, so Israel is a terror state, I would imagine that other nations that engages in some form of terror are justified becuase it has some higher purpose, Israel is not, even if it does have a clear higher purpose for its supposed 'terror', that is security of its citizen.

b. You speak of it recieving substantial amount of US aid as somehow a wrong, when Egypt recieve just as much.

c. They wontonly fire rockets so as to kill civilians, tactics that better describes the PLO and HAMAS more than Israel. Indeed, between the two, while the IDF and Israel do have its flaws, and do sometime go beyond necessity and into wantoness, they aer much more restrained than the Palestianians.


You criticise the blockade, but, from the military and political standpoint (I make no moral judgment, unlike you), it is a good thing, in that it decrease the manpower to fight against terrorist groups, it prevents weapons from coming in, and, overall, it better protect the citizen of Israel from the wanton attacks of HAMAS, and operates on the basic premise of a seige, that is, to force the enemy to cave in and give into your demands. Therefore, there does not seem to be anything whatsoever wrong with this tactic, and, it seems, does not seem any worse than what any other nation have already done.

As for the accusation of pillaging towns, aiming at schools, and generally being evil people, I have not heard of Israel doing so, or doing so intentionally.

You follow this with lengthy tirade against American involvement in Iraq, which I would agree is a mistake, and then call Israel 'racist to its core', despite the fact that Arab-Israeli citizens are equal under the law to Jewish Israeli citizens (who are composed of every stripe of Jews) are garaunteed equal rights under the Constitution of Israel- this may falter in practice, but it does not change the fact that Arabs, legally, have equal rights, which is followed by some general complaints against American Imperialism, and treating it as some evil, even though the American Empire, in comparison with any other empires, present or pass, such as the Chinese attempt at extending their sphere of influence, the Soviets, and the British, are considerably better and more benigh, not to say that everything is all flowers and sunshine, but that it is not as bad as other empires.


I can negate all this by saying Israel has never been entitled to exist and it has, on land where people lived well.

You're using the scapegoat of "don't the jews deserve a homeland after the holocaust" to justify there brutal killing of Palestinians. The IDF are cowardly, do you remember what happens to peace activists, protesters and journalists in the west bank? Tristan Anderson? Rachel Corrie? This is the most uncontroversial subject ever... IT'S THE PALESTINIANS LAND!!!!
Posted 2/1/13
Your whole argument is literally laughable I can't even fathom how your mind works...... Building an illegal wall around land you've occupied and firing in to the most dense place on earth where most of the people are innocent under 25's is ok with you?
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Posted 2/1/13

AruarianDance wrote:

Your whole argument is literally laughable I can't even fathom how your mind works...... Building an illegal wall around land you've occupied and firing in to the most dense place on earth where most of the people are innocent under 25's is ok with you?


I can't fanthom how your mind works- you seem to think that it is not okay for Israel, which professionally hunts for and limit themselves to suspects, is in the wrong, where the Palestinians, which shoot at civilians they know to be innocent, including Israeli children, are in the right, and that it is perfectly okay. Secondly, Israel is somehow wrong to build a wall to protect their citizen, as well as prevent weapons from coming in which will be used to attack Israel and her citizen.I can't fathom how anyone can reasonably object to such measures to ensure their own sercurity.
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Posted 2/1/13 , edited 2/1/13

AruarianDance wrote:


longfenglim wrote:


Are you an antisemite who support Palestinians bombing innocent civilians?

Pathos gets us nowhere, and any detached and rational analysis would confirm my position.


Anti semite would imply I am against Jews when I am not, I am against innocent lives being lost and when I see it happening I don't want to take sides, I just support the ending of it all because it's damaging and I would never want it happening to me or my family. But the Palestinians are quite literally helpless, there rocket fire is out of retaliation for having their land stolen and their lives wrecked by awful anti humane foreign policy and imperialism.


You are ridiculous, seriously- the point is not that you are an antisemite, but that you are relying on silly little emotions to make your point, rather than a rational analysis. So, you would like to end it all by letting the Palestinians free riegn to shoot at Israel, and especially at Israeli civilians, these helpless people who, last I check, were the one who started the whole affair by launching rockets at Israeli cities, who had their land robbed by these evil Jews (keep in mind that the Jews settled there and made a nation before Palestine ever existed, and they moved in there while under Turkish mandate, you know, before Palestine even existed as a seperate national identity, and Israel was an independant nation in 1948, while Palestine only declared itself an independant nation since 1988), which is evil Imperialism, if you ignore the historic facts.
Posted 2/1/13 , edited 2/1/13

longfenglim wrote:


AruarianDance wrote:

Your whole argument is literally laughable I can't even fathom how your mind works...... Building an illegal wall around land you've occupied and firing in to the most dense place on earth where most of the people are innocent under 25's is ok with you?


I can't fanthom how your mind works- you seem to think that it is not okay for Israel, which professionally hunts for and limit themselves to suspects, is in the wrong, where the Palestinians, which shoot at civilians they know to be innocent, including Israeli children, are in the right, and that it is perfectly okay. Secondly, Israel is somehow wrong to build a wall to protect their citizen, as well as prevent weapons from coming in which will be used to attack Israel and her citizen.I can't fathom how anyone can reasonably object to such measures to ensure their own sercurity.


suspects... right, so remind me how many civlians are being targeted during this invasion again? talk of surgical strikes in such a dense place populated with civilians is downright pathetic. give me some evidence where Palestinians have maimed civlians in massive numbers, demolished their houses and such, please. Israel is wrong to build a wall because it's mostly constructed on the west bank, Palestinian Land which is illegal under international law. As for the weapons thing, they've banned household items and equipment for repairs to be allowed by security checkpoints. what you are saying is not only was it OK for the splitting up of Palestine, but then to relocate them to a place so heavily under attack that approximately 2000 Palestinian civilians die every year at the hands of Israeli soldiers, fenced in and refused treatment, clean water and a home to live in. According to Unicef 90% of water on the west bank is contaminated. Targeting basic human rights like education, clean water, clothes, food and safety is banned under geneva law and violates human rights.

"At least 136 schools and kindergartens were damaged in Gaza during the week of violence between the coastal enclave and Israel, and the number is expected to rise" taken from Unicef during last November's assault "Operation Pillar of Cloud" They're purposely targeting areas of children's involvement. children make up half of Gaza's population... how can you talk of them protecting themselves from children??!?! are they terrorists?

"The Israeli army uses excessive, sometimes lethal, force against protestors in the West Bank and civilians in border areas of the Gaza Strip, often detaining them without charge or trial. Violence against Palestinians in the West Bank is increasing but perpetrators frequently escape justice." Aka white phosphorus, wikileaks reported that Israel were planning to use banned chemical weapons against peaceful protesters. ( oh btw, do you remember what happened to Rachel Corrie and Tristan Anderson? )

Palestinians are denied water by Israeli authorities whereas Israeli settlements in the west bank receive as much as they want, clean water may I add. Water and sanitation projects have been struggling due to the blockade as materials for construction and repair aren't allowed through, and 90% of the water used in Gaza is contaminated.

Let's take it back to 1948, when Zionist gangs destroyed homes, graveyards etc and went on a campaign to ethnically cleanse Palestine, killing hundreds and making the indigenous civilians flee to the west bank. Israel then went to war with neighboring counties to show who owns the middle east and eliminating resistance and liberation movements and removing Palestinian allies. proving to the Us aswell that Israel can be relied on to protect their future interests, what came later in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran.... Israel later invaded Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...

Now why should Israel exist? Zionism claims that Israel can only find peace by living in a separate state coming after the atrocity of the Holocaust. As Norman Finklestein puts this excellently "My parents were in the Warsaw ghetto uprising and it is precisely and exactly because of the lessons my parents taught me and my 2 siblings that I will not be silent when Israel commits its crimes against the Palestinians and I find nothing more despicable to use their suffering and their martyrdom to try and justify the torture, the brutalization and the destruction of homes that Israel daily commits against the Palestinians" They took Palestine through brutal violence and by making the indigenous population refugees on their own land that they grew up on based on the fact it was ancient Israel 2000 years previous. Restricting everything but the goods smuggled through the tunnels in Egypt that are now also under fire. Looking at this through humanity or through politics is the same outcome, it's wrong. I'm done though, arguing with someone so desensitized is a waste of my time.

If you want to make a justification through statistics check Amnesty International and campaigners for justice worldwide. Your argument is a scapegoat to escape your conscience. Israels existence is reliant on the suppression, torture and murdering of the Palestinians and maintained through Zionist owned corporations run by people with nothing to say and everything to gain, it's called censorship and propaganda, you don't even know of history. To persecute innocent people because they refuse to give up their land is really, really unjustifiable.
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Posted 2/1/13

AruarianDance wrote:

I can negate all this by saying Israel has never been entitled to exist and it has, on land where people lived well.

You're using the scapegoat of "don't the jews deserve a homeland after the holocaust" to justify there brutal killing of Palestinians. The IDF are cowardly, do you remember what happens to peace activists, protesters and journalists in the west bank? Tristan Anderson? Rachel Corrie? This is the most uncontroversial subject ever... IT'S THE PALESTINIANS LAND!!!!


I can negate that by pointing to the fact that Israel is recognised by the United Nations, and that the people of Israel are just as much native to the land as the Palestinians are- if birth and adoption is a necessary requirement, then Israel meets these two conditions. But what makes the Israelis 'foriegn occupiers', when many Israelis are now second or third generation, being born and bred in the land, and having subsisted of its fruits and its wine. They live there, and they have formed a state there, and there is no reason to doubt their status as a state- by any measure, their statehood is legally formed and legally made, and has just as much entitlement to exist as either Britain (Evil Norman invaders have no right to be forming state and Parliament), France (Evil Frankish invaders have no rights to the same), America (Evil Colonists have no right to indepedent government), or any other nation in the world.


Likewise, you mention that I am using the Shoah as an excuse, when I have never done so. If you had read, when I have never mentioned it at all. In fact, I made one reference to teh Shoah, which was in response to another person, and it was not concerning the legitimacy of Israel so much as the conduct of the British Magistrates. You, on the other hand, brought this imagined point up, and then accuse me of it, you are simply arguing with an imagined opponent here- and you are using the word 'scapegoat' incorrectly. On the otherhand, you do not shy away from using suffering as an excuse for nationhood- example, you say that the Palestinians are 'suffering under imperialism' and 'are brutally killed by the IDF' so on and so forth, as if that should be reason enough for land. I say that I do not use pathos to make my arguments, you, however, not only accuse me of doing it, but you do it yourself. Thus, an important question needs to be asked of yourself- why should Palestinian suffering warrant nationhood but not Jewish suffering (never mind that Israel is not an homogenously Jewish country, and that all religion are granted equal rights legally).

Now, you say that the IDF is cowardly- I say the opposite, that the IDF do what is necessary, and, whatever army you are part of, going out and carrying a gun, to risk life in battle field is brave, one who risks his life for his cause is brave- the people who flown the aeroplanes into the Twin Towers are brave- I'm ready to admit that much. But, I seperate their bravery for their reason, and the reason why they are willing to die and risk their lives are simply disgusting.

That being said, I did not know about what happened to the Peace Activists, Protesters, and Journalists, but, having looked it up, it seems no worse than what usually occurs in protests- things get out of control, and people get hurt. I do not condone it, but only to say that I have never said that the IDF is perfect, but it is better in comparison with the Palestinians- try having a Pro-Israel Rally in Palestinian territory, and we will see people getting stoned to death, the government doesn't even need to get involved (though they will probably join in on the fun), the people will go out to stone them.


Thus, you want to reduce this to a non-issue- It is Palestinian Land, I am right, despite all Historical and Political Analysis, that's the long and short of it.

Posted 2/1/13

longfenglim wrote:


AruarianDance wrote:

I can negate all this by saying Israel has never been entitled to exist and it has, on land where people lived well.

You're using the scapegoat of "don't the jews deserve a homeland after the holocaust" to justify there brutal killing of Palestinians. The IDF are cowardly, do you remember what happens to peace activists, protesters and journalists in the west bank? Tristan Anderson? Rachel Corrie? This is the most uncontroversial subject ever... IT'S THE PALESTINIANS LAND!!!!


I can negate that by pointing to the fact that Israel is recognised by the United Nations, and that the people of Israel are just as much native to the land as the Palestinians are- if birth and adoption is a necessary requirement, then Israel meets these two conditions. But what makes the Israelis 'foriegn occupiers', when many Israelis are now second or third generation, being born and bred in the land, and having subsisted of its fruits and its wine. They live there, and they have formed a state there, and there is no reason to doubt their status as a state- by any measure, their statehood is legally formed and legally made, and has just as much entitlement to exist as either Britain (Evil Norman invaders have no right to be forming state and Parliament), France (Evil Frankish invaders have no rights to the same), America (Evil Colonists have no right to indepedent government), or any other nation in the world.


Likewise, you mention that I am using the Shoah as an excuse, when I have never done so. If you had read, when I have never mentioned it at all. In fact, I made one reference to teh Shoah, which was in response to another person, and it was not concerning the legitimacy of Israel so much as the conduct of the British Magistrates. You, on the other hand, brought this imagined point up, and then accuse me of it, you are simply arguing with an imagined opponent here- and you are using the word 'scapegoat' incorrectly. On the otherhand, you do not shy away from using suffering as an excuse for nationhood- example, you say that the Palestinians are 'suffering under imperialism' and 'are brutally killed by the IDF' so on and so forth, as if that should be reason enough for land. I say that I do not use pathos to make my arguments, you, however, not only accuse me of doing it, but you do it yourself. Thus, an important question needs to be asked of yourself- why should Palestinian suffering warrant nationhood but not Jewish suffering (never mind that Israel is not an homogenously Jewish country, and that all religion are granted equal rights legally).

Now, you say that the IDF is cowardly- I say the opposite, that the IDF do what is necessary, and, whatever army you are part of, going out and carrying a gun, to risk life in battle field is brave, one who risks his life for his cause is brave- the people who flown the aeroplanes into the Twin Towers are brave- I'm ready to admit that much. But, I seperate their bravery for their reason, and the reason why they are willing to die and risk their lives are simply disgusting.

That being said, I did not know about what happened to the Peace Activists, Protesters, and Journalists, but, having looked it up, it seems no worse than what usually occurs in protests- things get out of control, and people get hurt. I do not condone it, but only to say that I have never said that the IDF is perfect, but it is better in comparison with the Palestinians- try having a Pro-Israel Rally in Palestinian territory, and we will see people getting stoned to death, the government doesn't even need to get involved (though they will probably join in on the fun), the people will go out to stone them.


Thus, you want to reduce this to a non-issue- It is Palestinian Land, I am right, despite all Historical and Political Analysis, that's the long and short of it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2n_Hu6FHU
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Posted 2/1/13 , edited 2/1/13

AruarianDance wrote:

suspects... right, so remind me how many civlians are being targeted during this invasion again? talk of surgical strikes in such a dense place populated with civilians is downright pathetic. give me some evidence where Palestinians have maimed civlians in massive numbers, demolished their houses and such, please. Israel is wrong to build a wall because it's mostly constructed on the west bank, Palestinian Land which is illegal under international law. As for the weapons thing, they've banned household items and equipment for repairs to be allowed by security checkpoints. what you are saying is not only was it OK for the splitting up of Palestine, but then to relocate them to a place so heavily under attack that approximately 2000 Palestinian civilians die every year at the hands of Israeli soldiers, fenced in and refused treatment, clean water and a home to live in. According to Unicef 90% of water on the west bank is contaminated. Targeting basic human rights like education, clean water, clothes, food and safety is banned under geneva law and violates human rights.


First, you speak about how many civilians are being targeted, which is, in fact, untrue. Let's take the number from the Second Intifada, 887 Israeli civilians have been killed, that is, 78% of all attacks on Israel during the Second Intifada has been aimed at civilians.


On the other hand, while Palestinians did suffer greater civilian casualties (the numbers are disputed), but Brian Morris and the UN concluded that most of those killed were combatants (and, some of the Palestinian casaulties were by other Palestinians).

That said, you go into an account of how terrible life is over there, and how they are suffering- which, bring us again, to the point of a siege, where the enemy is coerced into surrendering to the terms of the besiegers- and to protect Israel against weapons. They have banned items across the checkpoint precisely for that reason, to prevent weapons from being smuggled in. Is it okay to split up Palestine (as Palestine, it turns out, ha! are also at war with each other), and attack Palestinian combatants, and besiege the Palestinians because they have elected an openly militant organisation whose avowed purpose is to 'wipe Israel off the map'. I think this is a perfectly reasonable and sane thing to do, for the sake of security, though I do not disagree that the Israelis have gone too far with this sieging bit.

But, you are wrong to say that they are hunting at Palestinian civilians, especially when that is the tactic of the Palestinians.


"At least 136 schools and kindergartens were damaged in Gaza during the week of violence between the coastal enclave and Israel, and the number is expected to rise" taken from Unicef during last November's assault "Operation Pillar of Cloud" They're purposely targeting areas of children's involvement. children make up half of Gaza's population... how can you talk of them protecting themselves from children??!?! are they terrorists?


No, they aren't, and you are only bringing up schools for pathos point, and they are not purposefully attacking schools.

The Palestinians target schools also- where schools are accidents in Israeli attacks, Palestinians actually aim at them.

But, you degrade into some 'think of the children' rant, when I can say much of the same, and cite several examples of where Children are targeted and murdered- such as the pregnant Tali Hatuel and her four daughters.


"The Israeli army uses excessive, sometimes lethal, force against protestors in the West Bank and civilians in border areas of the Gaza Strip, often detaining them without charge or trial. Violence against Palestinians in the West Bank is increasing but perpetrators frequently escape justice." Aka white phosphorus, wikileaks reported that Israel were planning to use banned chemical weapons against peaceful protesters. ( oh btw, do you remember what happened to Rachel Corrie and Tristan Anderson? )


Protests get out of hand, it occurs everywhere, in America, in France, and in Israel. Israel, admittedly, is excessive. A more detailed reply has already been given.


Palestinians are denied water by Israeli authorities whereas Israeli settlements in the west bank receive as much as they want, clean water may I add. Water and sanitation projects have been struggling due to the blockade as materials for construction and repair aren't allowed through, and 90% of the water used in Gaza is contaminated.


I don't see the point of this- so the West Bank is suffering because they have openly declared war on Israel and vowed to wipe Israel off the map- is the blockade excessive, yes, but are Israel totally at fault for Palestinians aiming their guns at Israeli civilians and wanting to protect the people they govern? Not really.


Let's take it back to 1948, when Zionist gangs destroyed homes, graveyards etc and went on a campaign to ethnically cleanse Palestine, killing hundreds and making the indigenous civilians flee to the west bank. Israel then went to war with neighboring counties to show who owns the middle east and eliminating resistance and liberation movements and removing Palestinian allies. proving to the Us aswell that Israel can be relied on to protect their future interests, what came later in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran.... Israel later invaded Syria, Lebanon, Egypt...


Distorted History. I will not argue against it because it is so incorrect in so many ways- such as your discription of the Arab-Israeli War, you know, where the Arabs declared War upon Israel, and Israel is in the unenviable position of having to defend itself against six other nations. The way you worded it, it would seem as if it is the Israeli who begged their neighbours to attack it so it can show off some of the Jewish Muscle. Simply to read up on the conflict is to prove you wrong.


Now why should Israel exist? Zionism claims that Israel can only find peace by living in a separate state coming after the atrocity of the Holocaust.


No, Zionism existed before the fucking Holocaust. In fact, Jews were moving into Israel before the Holocaust even happened. Israel does not exist because of it, and Zionism is not base upon the Shoah.


As Norman Finklestein puts this excellently "My parents were in the Warsaw ghetto uprising and it is precisely and exactly because of the lessons my parents taught me and my 2 siblings that I will not be silent when Israel commits its crimes against the Palestinians and I find nothing more despicable to use their suffering and their martyrdom to try and justify the torture, the brutalization and the destruction of homes that Israel daily commits against the Palestinians"


Norman Finklestein is not talking about Israel not having the right to exist, he is merely commenting of Israeli war crimes. So, however excellently put, it doesn't advance your point that Israel has no right to exist.


They took Palestine through brutal violence and by making the indigenous population refugees on their own land that they grew up on based on the fact it was ancient Israel 2000 years previous.


They did not steal land from the indigenous population, if anything, being born there and raised there is enough to make on 'indigenous', and most Israelis now are, in fact, just as indigenous as the Palestinians are. But, all this by the by, they did not steal the land. Immigrating there does not constitute robbery- Palestine was not an independant state, the Jews from all over the World, not just European Jews, as you may think, came to Israel for relief against persecution, and they immigrated legally under the rulers of the land, from the Turks to the Brits, and they decleared themselves independant, and the UN recognises that, and the people of Israel have lived there, and not all of them are Jews- there are Moslems and Christians there as well.


Restricting everything but the goods smuggled through the tunnels in Egypt that are now also under fire. Looking at this through humanity or through politics is the same outcome, it's wrong. I'm done though, arguing with someone so desensitized is a waste of my time.


Of course, you are only arguing by way of emotions, and you expect us to share your sentiments, when there is sentiments abounding in both side, looking at it from an enlightened, rational view, we see that Israel, while sometimes going too far, is by far the more restrained of the two.
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Posted 2/1/13 , edited 2/1/13

AruarianDance wrote:


longfenglim wrote:

I can negate that by pointing to the fact that Israel is recognised by the United Nations, and that the people of Israel are just as much native to the land as the Palestinians are- if birth and adoption is a necessary requirement, then Israel meets these two conditions. But what makes the Israelis 'foriegn occupiers', when many Israelis are now second or third generation, being born and bred in the land, and having subsisted of its fruits and its wine. They live there, and they have formed a state there, and there is no reason to doubt their status as a state- by any measure, their statehood is legally formed and legally made, and has just as much entitlement to exist as either Britain (Evil Norman invaders have no right to be forming state and Parliament), France (Evil Frankish invaders have no rights to the same), America (Evil Colonists have no right to indepedent government), or any other nation in the world.


Likewise, you mention that I am using the Shoah as an excuse, when I have never done so. If you had read, when I have never mentioned it at all. In fact, I made one reference to teh Shoah, which was in response to another person, and it was not concerning the legitimacy of Israel so much as the conduct of the British Magistrates. You, on the other hand, brought this imagined point up, and then accuse me of it, you are simply arguing with an imagined opponent here- and you are using the word 'scapegoat' incorrectly. On the otherhand, you do not shy away from using suffering as an excuse for nationhood- example, you say that the Palestinians are 'suffering under imperialism' and 'are brutally killed by the IDF' so on and so forth, as if that should be reason enough for land. I say that I do not use pathos to make my arguments, you, however, not only accuse me of doing it, but you do it yourself. Thus, an important question needs to be asked of yourself- why should Palestinian suffering warrant nationhood but not Jewish suffering (never mind that Israel is not an homogenously Jewish country, and that all religion are granted equal rights legally).

Now, you say that the IDF is cowardly- I say the opposite, that the IDF do what is necessary, and, whatever army you are part of, going out and carrying a gun, to risk life in battle field is brave, one who risks his life for his cause is brave- the people who flown the aeroplanes into the Twin Towers are brave- I'm ready to admit that much. But, I seperate their bravery for their reason, and the reason why they are willing to die and risk their lives are simply disgusting.

That being said, I did not know about what happened to the Peace Activists, Protesters, and Journalists, but, having looked it up, it seems no worse than what usually occurs in protests- things get out of control, and people get hurt. I do not condone it, but only to say that I have never said that the IDF is perfect, but it is better in comparison with the Palestinians- try having a Pro-Israel Rally in Palestinian territory, and we will see people getting stoned to death, the government doesn't even need to get involved (though they will probably join in on the fun), the people will go out to stone them.


Thus, you want to reduce this to a non-issue- It is Palestinian Land, I am right, despite all Historical and Political Analysis, that's the long and short of it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2n_Hu6FHU


So? I'm not going to wait half an hour for the video to finish loading. In fact, I suspect you did not read anything at all, and so, since I suspect that the video is not going to address anything that is being said, I ask again, respond to my position, rather than an imagined position you think I hold (for example, saying that Jews deserve Israel because of the Holocaust), or else be quiet.

Posted 2/1/13
Mandela already explained this
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Posted 3/1/13
The United Nations some 2-3 weeks ago denounced Israel's land grabbing practices within the Gaza strip and Palestine stating that Israel was illegally taking Palestinian land. Unfortunately proclamations made by the U.N. hold no legal bearing, but the Palestinians are now looking to head to Den Hague (the international courts) to sue Israel and end their aggressive policies.
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Posted 3/5/13
All those Arab Christians kicked off their land with no right of return, their crime? not being Jewish.
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