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Post Reply Why do we need governments?
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Posted 1/30/13

lordseth23 wrote:


Thepoorfool wrote:

Control, the need for control. That and a lot of what mesomuffin said is what keeps us in the dark, the minus 1% wealthy in the world want to stay in control of EVERYONE else. We do not have the funding, or the resources, or anything to sustain us for equal education at the moment. If a device was invented that instantly gave you all the necessary information on a subject you wanted to learn, then maybe we could get higher education on a very large scale, but government would still be needed to maintain order.

Everyone is different, we are defined by our experiences as we grow up, some people have very negative experiences that make them very sour or cruel people and some grow up with bad experiences and turn out to be kind and loving people that strive for betterment in all things, and vice versa. There are too many factors to count in for this, as Mesomuffin said this is an extremely naive opinion to have.

Advances in nano technology and bio-chemical and bio-genetic engineering might some day allow us to cure many major diseases, live longer and do various other things. But if everyone still feels the need to be in control of something or someone, we cannot shed government and we cannot shed the upper class and lower class systems that have been around for centuries.


The things we would need to do to make everyone equal are just not possible at this time, and may never be possible.
That is my take on this subject.


Like I said before, we will eventually have the ability to educate everybody due to an abundance of resources.

If we educate everybody, no child will grow up to be a sour or cruel person because they will receive the proper care and education necessary to be a loving and caring person.

We can eliminate the need for control once we are properly educated. Control is born out of fear, take away this fear and it is gone for good. It is very easy to imagine a world in which no human feels the need to manipulate any other person.


http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/is-higher-education-to-blame-for-serial-killers_2011-01-18/ I suppose they weren't educated either
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Posted 1/30/13 , edited 1/30/13

lordseth23 wrote:


mesomuffin wrote:

Really? You think we're going to have the resources available to properly educate everyone in the world? I suggest you look at how the world is faring right at this moment. Our resources are dwindling every so quickly.
You're expectations of education is too high. I honestly can't tell if you truly believe that education will eradicate all the issues that people have of becoming one big happy family. Oh and of course, education will definitely get rid of human corruption. *sarcasm* Are you kidding? You're not serious right? Corruption doesn't stem from a lack of proper education! It is human nature. We're human beings for gods sake, animals, it is in our blood to have corruption within us.

"Once we educate everybody, there will be no screwed up people." I laughed. Props to you. I'd really try and think about what you just said right then and there.


Again, all of your concerns about resources are answered in the critically-acclaimed book that I showed you.

How do you know so much about human nature? Are you an expert who has done extensive research on the subject? I would love to hear what sort of experiments you did to prove your hypotheses, because I have read about a lot of studies that do not support your claims about human nature.

Maybe you should think about what you are saying, or at least back up your claims with some factual evidence if you so strongly disagree with my claims.



No of course I am not an expert, but the debate about human nature has gone on for centuries, and I have read about it through essays. Why would I have to prove my hypothesis about human nature? It is not something that can be proved through fact, but I am definitely certain that people are not born to cooperate because of sheer goodness, but rather because it helps our own survival. And if your interests do not comply to mine, then what reason should I have to cooperate? What is there to gain? Gaining something is essential to humans.

I should think about what I am saying? Honestly? I'm being realistic about the world and simply disagreeing with your opinion that it is possible that the ENTIRE world can cooperate with one another to create a balanced society. There is too much that has to be lost.

How can I possibly back myself up with factual evidence about something that you can't prove? How about you provide us with factual evidence then? I'd love to hear more about how education is able to get rid of "screwed up people".
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Posted 1/30/13
Here is some fun reading material about government and human nature for you guys:

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/hobbes/leviathan-contents.html
Posted 1/30/13

mesomuffin wrote:


AruarianDance wrote:


mesomuffin wrote:

Really? You think we're going to have the resources available to properly educate everyone in the world? I suggest you look at how the world is faring right at this moment. Our resources are dwindling every so quickly.
You're expectations of education is too high. I honestly can't tell if you truly believe that education will eradicate all the issues that people have of becoming one big happy family. Oh and of course, education will definitely get rid of human corruption. *sarcasm* Are you kidding? You're not serious right? Corruption doesn't stem from a lack of proper education! It is human nature. We're human beings for gods sake, animals, it is in our blood to have corruption within us.

"Once we educate everybody, there will be no screwed up people." I laughed. Props to you. I'd really try and think about what you just said right then and there.


you think corruption is a part of human nature? you're wrong. Resources are so low because no one is taking advantage of sustainable solutions and people are wasting them by buying shit they don't need. it's called consumerism, as well as this if money was put in to finding energy supplies and funding REAL education instead of resource conflicts there would be hope for civilization. you're being extremely pessimistic, sounds like you're still reliant on being told what to do. Out of interest do you know what percentage of human resource goes to waste? there is more than enough to go around but people are being greedy. cooperation goes a long way.


I'm wrong you say? So you think we we're born reasonable human beings then? We're intelligent animals, nothing more. Yes, I agree that people are indeed buying shit that we don't need, but do honestly expect people to change that? Of course I'm reliant on being told what to do. We have structure in our lives that keeps us from going back to being uncivilized animals. But aren't you being reliant on being told what to do as well? Of course you are. There's no denying that.
I don't know the exact percentage but I certainly know that a lot of our resources are going to waste, and we can definitely change that to help other countries in need, I never argued against that, I'm just saying that there is no way that the whole world can cooperate equally.



evil can be taught or it can be hereditary, you can never completely remove evil from the world but you can abstain from participating in it or being inactive against it. Yes people can change their consumerist habits quite easily with the abolition of advertisements and the paradigm that makes you pile up possessions that never fulfil you, quite easily, we don't do it because we want to but we feel we have to and we don't know any different because no one is in touch with themselves and they don't truly understand the importance of knowing who you are. ( if you understand that ) & maybe you'd be surprised... we see ourselves as split off from everything outside of us which is why we divide each other up as much as we can instead of just accepting ourselves as individuals as part of the same nature we all came from. I know exactly what you mean though don't worry, human's are likely to suffer psychological disorder's... sociopathy and stuff but not near to the 1/10 of us who have that now if the world was to evolve in to a more mhm.... stable place to live. We learn from each other... this is why you see world unity as so far out. We can't change the world you can only change your mind, start with yourself and people will follow.
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Posted 1/30/13 , edited 1/30/13
Even IF that happened, it would not eliminate greed or the need for control. People are born with diseases or edges that make them special, there will always be an upper and lower class until this is changed. Until everyone has equal brain power, and the same upbringing, this dream of yours cannot happen.

And quite frankly, i like diversity, if everyone was the same that would be terribly boring, yes there are bad things that happen as a result of this, but such is life. Too many humans i say, too many! Too many people with no desire to help or do anything, me? I couldn't care less because i know there is nothing that can be done without a significant increase in technology and a SEVERE social shift in opinion and action, between the those two thing's the most likely is the tech increase, but i have huge doubts about the social shift that is needed.

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Posted 1/30/13
This is really REALLY REALLY hopeful thinking. You said if we had a completely educated society then we would be able to accomplish this feat.

That's just asking for a more unstable society. Think about it. If everyone was more educated, they would have more developed skills and knowledge for crime or deviance.

This is why we have governments, to put out control, to enforce negative sanctions such as laws to punish crime. Of course in many countries this is abused, this power, but it is better then the anarchy that would come out of having no governments.

Being educated doesn't mean people will get along. Some people no matter how much education will just be plain stupid or moronic.

Not everyone can be educated, be it a physical defect, or a psychological build that prevents further education.

You'd rather ask for a more democratic society, cause honestly, that is a society that is USING the government to reach a society as a whole's goals.

But is what the people want what's best for the country? Not always, as it can RUIN a country.

So please, if you want a better world, I'm sorry, having no form of government is not the way to go.
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Posted 1/30/13

Thepoorfool wrote:

Even IF that happened, it would not eliminate greed or the need for control. People are born with diseases or edges that make them special, there will always be an upper and lower class until this is changed. Until everyone has equal brain power, and the same upbringing, this dream of yours cannot happen.

And quite frankly, i like diversity, if everyone was the same that would be terribly boring, yes there are bad things that happen as a result of this, but such is life. Too many humans i say, too many! Too many people with no desire to help or do anything, me? I couldn't care less because i know there is nothing that can be done without a significant increase in technology and a SEVERE social shift in opinion and action, between the those two thing's the most likely is the tech increase, but i have huge doubts about the social shift that is needed.



Agreed Mr. Panda...Agreed.
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Posted 1/30/13
I really want to see a response from the OP already....actually this may sound harsh but I probably won't want to read it.
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Posted 1/30/13
^ !_! "shakes head up up and down in agreement"
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Posted 1/30/13

Thepoorfool wrote:

But yeah, this is like saying that if someone is REALLY good at math they can easily win the mega millions lottery, it's possible, but highly unlikely.


Then they find out it's mainly social questions about movies and tv shows and politics. NOOOO-!
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Posted 1/30/13

Urboistar wrote:


I only quoted ur post cause i wanted to say "nice avi" lol (nobody mind me xD)


Why thank you, good sir.
Posted 1/31/13 , edited 1/31/13

Nefunrest wrote:

This is really REALLY REALLY hopeful thinking. You said if we had a completely educated society then we would be able to accomplish this feat.

That's just asking for a more unstable society. Think about it. If everyone was more educated, they would have more developed skills and knowledge for crime or deviance.

This is why we have governments, to put out control, to enforce negative sanctions such as laws to punish crime. Of course in many countries this is abused, this power, but it is better then the anarchy that would come out of having no governments.

Being educated doesn't mean people will get along. Some people no matter how much education will just be plain stupid or moronic.

Not everyone can be educated, be it a physical defect, or a psychological build that prevents further education.

You'd rather ask for a more democratic society, cause honestly, that is a society that is USING the government to reach a society as a whole's goals.

But is what the people want what's best for the country? Not always, as it can RUIN a country.

So please, if you want a better world, I'm sorry, having no form of government is not the way to go.


do you know what anarchism is? do you know who gets jailed for crime and how it starts? judical systems are flawed and governments don't punish people because they care about humanity lol! you know they privatize prisons now and falsely incarcerate just about anyone suspected of being a terrorist ( aka from a middle eastern country ) and people with marijuana for profit? and not just America. governments round the world that have given power to the people and legislated things, made people slightly more self reliant have adopted a good system because it benefits us, socialism works IMO, it just got a bad name from communism. Democracy is important but it's almost imaginary. I don't think it's exactly right to say you need a government however. Governments usually set out agenda's that put us at risk because we are at the bottom of the hierarchy and can manipulate our own consciousness, also they're tied to the banks, schools, hospitals and security... I don't trust people with that. and who do you choose to apart of the government? the only person that can really change the world is you, having your life dictated to you by governments is an awful idea and it's not my idea of freedom. you made an interesting point about psychological components though...
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Posted 1/31/13

romanmink wrote:


lordseth23 wrote:


Thepoorfool wrote:

Control, the need for control. That and a lot of what mesomuffin said is what keeps us in the dark, the minus 1% wealthy in the world want to stay in control of EVERYONE else. We do not have the funding, or the resources, or anything to sustain us for equal education at the moment. If a device was invented that instantly gave you all the necessary information on a subject you wanted to learn, then maybe we could get higher education on a very large scale, but government would still be needed to maintain order.

Everyone is different, we are defined by our experiences as we grow up, some people have very negative experiences that make them very sour or cruel people and some grow up with bad experiences and turn out to be kind and loving people that strive for betterment in all things, and vice versa. There are too many factors to count in for this, as Mesomuffin said this is an extremely naive opinion to have.

Advances in nano technology and bio-chemical and bio-genetic engineering might some day allow us to cure many major diseases, live longer and do various other things. But if everyone still feels the need to be in control of something or someone, we cannot shed government and we cannot shed the upper class and lower class systems that have been around for centuries.


The things we would need to do to make everyone equal are just not possible at this time, and may never be possible.
That is my take on this subject.


Like I said before, we will eventually have the ability to educate everybody due to an abundance of resources.

If we educate everybody, no child will grow up to be a sour or cruel person because they will receive the proper care and education necessary to be a loving and caring person.

We can eliminate the need for control once we are properly educated. Control is born out of fear, take away this fear and it is gone for good. It is very easy to imagine a world in which no human feels the need to manipulate any other person.


http://www.realonlinedegrees.com/is-higher-education-to-blame-for-serial-killers_2011-01-18/ I suppose they weren't educated either


No, they weren't educated properly. It has nothing to do with memorizing information and writing papers, that is not the education I am talking about.
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Posted 1/31/13 , edited 1/31/13

krnofdrg wrote:

Government is good for the basic tools of survival such as security (defense), social welfare, law and order, and basically keep you safe as a citizen or individual of that country.

But I dislike it when they do go too far and damage individual rights and liberty; too much regulation, crazy taxes and etc. Albeit, Government should be babysitting people.

This is my personal philosophy


^Lordseth23, how we have an abundance of resources? Care to explain this one?




There is a whole book written on it, it is up to you to decide whether you want to believe a critically-acclaimed book or not.

http://www.abundancethebook.com/
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Posted 1/31/13

mesomuffin wrote:


lordseth23 wrote:


mesomuffin wrote:

Really? You think we're going to have the resources available to properly educate everyone in the world? I suggest you look at how the world is faring right at this moment. Our resources are dwindling every so quickly.
You're expectations of education is too high. I honestly can't tell if you truly believe that education will eradicate all the issues that people have of becoming one big happy family. Oh and of course, education will definitely get rid of human corruption. *sarcasm* Are you kidding? You're not serious right? Corruption doesn't stem from a lack of proper education! It is human nature. We're human beings for gods sake, animals, it is in our blood to have corruption within us.

"Once we educate everybody, there will be no screwed up people." I laughed. Props to you. I'd really try and think about what you just said right then and there.


Again, all of your concerns about resources are answered in the critically-acclaimed book that I showed you.

How do you know so much about human nature? Are you an expert who has done extensive research on the subject? I would love to hear what sort of experiments you did to prove your hypotheses, because I have read about a lot of studies that do not support your claims about human nature.

Maybe you should think about what you are saying, or at least back up your claims with some factual evidence if you so strongly disagree with my claims.



No of course I am not an expert, but the debate about human nature has gone on for centuries, and I have read about it through essays. Why would I have to prove my hypothesis about human nature? It is not something that can be proved through fact, but I am definitely certain that people are not born to cooperate because of sheer goodness, but rather because it helps our own survival.


How did you come to this conclusion? Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim?






And if your interests do not comply to mine, then what reason should I have to cooperate? What is there to gain? Gaining something is essential to humans.


Which is why we need to have a discussion about it. We can all come to agree on a select set of interests, it isn't that difficult to imagine once you realize how similar we are to each other. Why are you so obsessed about materialistic needs? Why do you think that you need to gain something by making the world a better place?





I should think about what I am saying? Honestly? I'm being realistic about the world and simply disagreeing with your opinion that it is possible that the ENTIRE world can cooperate with one another to create a balanced society. There is too much that has to be lost.


What would be lost that is so important to you?





How can I possibly back myself up with factual evidence about something that you can't prove? How about you provide us with factual evidence then? I'd love to hear more about how education is able to get rid of "screwed up people".


You can read this book for some of the factual evidence you are looking for: http://empathiccivilization.com/

Here is a summary of some of the ideas presented in the book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

All of the characteristics that make a certain person "screwed up" can be eliminated from their psyche through proper education. Once they are able to see the world that they live in through the proper perspective, they will no longer feel the need to engage in destructive behavior because they will be able to comprehend why they should not act in a certain way. It is very similar to the concept of parenting, you instill the proper morals in your child so they can grow up to be the best person they can possibly be.

It is not my job to convince you of what is fact, I can't make decisions for you. Ultimately it is up to you to decide if you want to be a better person and shed the fears that are holding you back. Take an honest look at yourself and use an ample amount of time to ponder the questions I pose. Read the literature that I have read and give me a reason why I should not buy into this concept of an Empathic Civilization, it isn't that hard to understand if you make a legitimate attempt to see the world from this point of view.
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