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Posted 4/9/13

JustineKo2 wrote:

I have discovered a fundamental flaw in the whole trust Jesus/God/whatever or you're going to Hell thing.
Those of us who don't beleive such a thing as any hell exists tend to have a nagging prerequisite before trusting in unlikely things, ie. to have some sort of evidence presented to us. If the incentive to simply believe in something possibly fictional is also something possibly fictional, then the incentive becomes moot no matter how harsh it is. Essentially some of us are compelled to disbelieve simply because that is core of our being, how we were created.

But wait, you may ask, if we don't believe in God why would I suggest we are created?

Because it's is also possible God does exist. But if that is true wouldn't that make him far more EVIL than Satan to create humans who are compelled to ask for evidence that God seems to insist he is not going to provide? In other words those people are esentially created to be doomed to hellfire.

Therefore why make Hell so extremely terrifying? How about a compromise for those of us who are unfairly doomed to go there no matter what, maybe more like a not-quite-Heaven instead. Or I was thinking perhaps maybe you'll spend eternity in a small white cell forced to listen to Bee-Gees songs constantly. Oh wait, on second thought that would be worse than the Lake of Fire.


It is the whole concept of hell that made me really start believing the christian god does not exist. Lets look at it shall we.

In simplest terms, if we do certain sins and dont ask forgiveness then we will go to hell. What is hell? A place of eternal suffering. This is the concept I dont accept and made me begin to really question christianity. Eternal.... This one word. So god has a place to send sinners forever. For all eternity. There is no parole or probation. There is no "For 10 years" or things like that. It is forever.

The humans that wrote the bible didnt have a concept of eternity. They had zero clue just how long eternity is. And why should they? They believed the world was flat as well. And that there was a firmament (big wall) between the earth and the heavens. Humans now cant wrap their head around a word like "forever".

I look to a story I read several years ago. About a judge that was found guilty of a felony. He served 10 years in prison. When he got out he was asked about his time in prison. He basically said he couldnt believe he used to sentence people to terms like that and even longer. That you dont realize just how long 10 years is until you have to sit in that little cell and do those 10 years.

So back to the concept of hell.... Why send these sinner's souls to hell? Why make them suffer for eternity? Is god going to let them go eventually? According to the bible no. They will be there forever. Why not just destroy those souls? Why even send them to hell? I know people will go insane after being tortured for a long time. They wouldnt even be souls anymore. Just suffering piles of ectoplasm. So why do it?

Well when I look at it like that I dont see a loving caring god. I see a 5 year old that enjoys magnifying glasses and ant hills. I see, in all honesty, a sociopath. A child that likes pulling the wings off flies.

So that is where I started my journey to atheism. And eventually to being agnostic.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

JustineKo2 wrote:

I have discovered a fundamental flaw in the whole trust Jesus/God/whatever or you're going to Hell thing.
Those of us who don't beleive such a thing as any hell exists tend to have a nagging prerequisite before trusting in unlikely things, ie. to have some sort of evidence presented to us. If the incentive to simply believe in something possibly fictional is also something possibly fictional, then the incentive becomes moot no matter how harsh it is. Essentially some of us are compelled to disbelieve simply because that is core of our being, how we were created.

But wait, you may ask, if we don't believe in God why would I suggest we are created?

Because it's is also possible God does exist. But if that is true wouldn't that make him far more EVIL than Satan to create humans who are compelled to ask for evidence that God seems to insist he is not going to provide? In other words those people are esentially created to be doomed to hellfire.

Therefore why make Hell so extremely terrifying? How about a compromise for those of us who are unfairly doomed to go there no matter what, maybe more like a not-quite-Heaven instead. Or I was thinking perhaps maybe you'll spend eternity in a small white cell forced to listen to Bee-Gees songs constantly. Oh wait, on second thought that would be worse than the Lake of Fire.


May I answer your question about Hell, using the only authority I know to answer your questions, The Bible itsself.
(I have something for that lake of fire)
Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ-king james: " The sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell,* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire."
(So the dead will be delivered from hell, NOTICE that both death and Hell were " cast " into the lake of fire ") (* " Hell," Dy, Kx " the world of the dead, " TEV; " Hades, " NE, AS, RS, JB,NW.)

Having faith in God , who's name is Jehovah, (Ps. 83:18 KJ) and that he loved the world, (of mankind) so much that he gave his only-begotten son , so that all who exersize faith in him might not be destroyed but gain everlasting life



First, Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9: 5, 10: " The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going. "(If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.)[*Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB; " The Grave, " KJ, Kx; " hell " Dy; " the world of the dead, " TEV.]

Psalms. 146:4: " His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish. "

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezekiel 18:4: "Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning*—it itself will die." (*" Soul, " KJ, Dy, RS, Kx; " the man, " JB; " the person, " TEV)

" The concept of ' soul, ' meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ' body,' ....does not exsist in the Bible."---La Parole de Dieu (Paris 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p.128.

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Posted 4/23/13
Uh, the theory that the world was flat and what people believed in europe, was way after the bible was originally completed in their original languages, remember that that theory, was popular abound the time of divinci, during the inquisition perhaps.

There were some Bible writers that knew, that in ISAIAH 40:21 " There is the One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out just like a tent in which to dwell

Job. 26:7: " He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing;"

Job. 38:1-7: 38 And Jehovah proceeded to answer Job out of the windstorm+ and say: 2 “Who is this that is obscuring counsel

By words without knowledge? 3 Gird up your loins, please, like an able-bodied man, And let me question you, and you inform me.

4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding. 5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,

Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line? 6 Into what have its socket pedestals+ been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars+ joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God*+ began shouting in applause?

(The term " Into what have it's socket pedestals been sunk down " means that the earth was set in it's orbit as if sunk down into it's socket pedestals.

So you see, there were men who knew about the earth, well before those who thought the world was flat.
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Posted 4/24/13 , edited 4/24/13
AcadGlade

So lets look on whether or not the bible says the world is flat...

The first problem we encounter is the multitude of translations or versions of the bible. Each one changing different parts. I truly believe there are more different translations or versions of the bible then there are translations to Happy Potter, Twilight, and Hunger Games books. I have personally read 17 different versions and have 4 on hand right now. So as I write this I will only pick verses that are the same across a multitude of translations or versions.

Next is interpretation. And, IMO, one of the biggest problems with the bible. It allows way too much personal interpretation. But nothing we can do there except hope those that read what follows will keep an open mind. Let us begin shall we?

Isaiah 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. NIV...

All other versions of this verse use this term or the terms "ends of the earth" or "four corners of the earth. Well the earth is a globe. No corners or end.

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? KJ2000

Again we have here a reference to the ends of the earth. Not just the ends of the earth but grabbing the ends. Again a sphere doesnt have an end. This version is the same with all versions except the NLV version which completely misses the point entirely.

I am not going to continue listing all the verses that say "end of the earth". These two are examples. Suffice to say there are alot of them in the bible.

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth: KJB Cambridge ed.

I highlighted this one because it doesnt just say "end of the earth" it says "end of ALL the earth". Quite telling in and of itself.

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. NIV

This one is quite interesting to me in the pillars. The NLV of the bible refers to foundations and not pillars. The rest are pretty much all pillars. When were pillars added? Did your God have a permit for this new construction? He better get some back dated ones or the housing authority is gonna pay him a visit.
Now it could be interpreted different ways. Either that the earth has pillars under it holding it up or pillars made by man across the world. I think its pillars under the earth holding it up myself.

You put in the next verse. I am quite interested to know your version you are referencing.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. NIV

All the versions refer to it as "earth's foundation". Except the Darby version which says "founded the earth" and Holman edition that refers to it as "established the earth". But a foundation on a sphere? Not quite right. Unless the world is seen as flat like a building.

Job 11:9 Its measure is longer than the earth And broader than the sea. NASB

This one says the same "longer" in all translations I have found except for the NLV which says broader for the earth and wider for the sea.
Can a sphere be "longer"? Again we have another reference that shows me the people writing the bible see the world as flat.

Isaiah 40:22 He's the one who sits above the disk of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He's the one who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in, ISV

Most editions say "circle of the earth". Now I must point out that Douay-Rheims does refer to "globe of the earth" And two other editions say "above the earth" and "on the earth's horizon". GW and NET respectively. But the rest, as I said before say "disk" or "circle". Anyway, a sphere is a sphere not a circle or a disk. Shouldnt they all say globe?

And finally the best for last.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. NIV

This whole verse screams flat earth... How can anyone see ALL the of the kingdoms from the top of one mountain unless it were flat?

I could continue. But I hate typing alot to say the same thing over and over.

Anyway this is just a smattering of verses that refer to the earth as flat. I can post up more should you choose. But no real need. I think its moot at this point.

Thanks
Kai

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Posted 4/25/13
Wait...
So the world isn't flat???
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Posted 4/25/13
I find it funny that most Christians do not even realize that Hell was created later on, the concept of hell was added into the bible later, originally there was no hell, only separation from god, or nothingness. Hell was created later to enforce fear into people in order to make sure people would not think about ever leaving the religion.

Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP!



So next time you think that someone is going to hell remember hell is a human concept that was added later to the bible it was never a real place in the religion.
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Posted 4/25/13

JustineKo2 wrote:

Wait...
So the world isn't flat???


Well, if technology was it it was in ancient times, one still might believe that the world was flat. But, I do know that Aristotle believed that the earth was spherical because of his observation on how a ship disappears on the horizon: first, you lose track of the hull and then the mast. This would not be the case if the world were flat. Also, Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the earth in the 3rd Century B.C. And it seems to be a myth that medieval people thought that the world was flat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth.

But, as the good folks of the European Enlightenment told us, medieval people, since they believed in God, must have been completely irrational, superstitious, and backwards. Never mind all the progress made in technology and philosophy during the "Dark Ages!"
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Posted 4/26/13
"Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company"
tbh I don't believe in anything after death, simply because I never saw anyone come back from there with memories to tell s about it.
Also I don't think religion is a bad thing, it helps a lot of people, but yes it's full of flaws. I mean seriously, God created light before the sun...wth?
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Posted 4/26/13

ispy12 wrote:

"Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company"
tbh I don't believe in anything after death, simply because I never saw anyone come back from there with memories to tell s about it.
Also I don't think religion is a bad thing, it helps a lot of people, but yes it's full of flaws. I mean seriously, God created light before the sun...wth?


Well, if you think about God creating light before the sun in a certain manner, it makes sense. After all, one cannot give what one does not have. All the perfections one sees in created things must originate in God, who has these perfection in their highest state. Therefore, One of God's attributes is light--He is the light of the world. So, God does not rely on the sun for illuminating things, but he made the sun to be a natural source of light for us.

But consider how everything relies on the sun for warmth and light. Without the sun, all life would perish on this earth in short order. By placing God's creation of light before the creation of the sun, the writer of Genesis might simply be making the point that we rely upon God more than anything He Himself creates. So, such a passage should be understood theologically more than scientifically, the former mode being the truth Scripture imparts to us first and foremost.

No one ever tries to say the Bible should be read as a science textbook, but to gain the truth necessary for our salvation.
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Posted 4/26/13 , edited 4/26/13

Canute wrote:


ispy12 wrote:

"Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company"
tbh I don't believe in anything after death, simply because I never saw anyone come back from there with memories to tell s about it.
Also I don't think religion is a bad thing, it helps a lot of people, but yes it's full of flaws. I mean seriously, God created light before the sun...wth?


Well, if you think about God creating light before the sun in a certain manner, it makes sense. After all, one cannot give what one does not have. All the perfections one sees in created things must originate in God, who has these perfection in their highest state. Therefore, One of God's attributes is light--He is the light of the world. So, God does not rely on the sun for illuminating things, but he made the sun to be a natural source of light for us.

But consider how everything relies on the sun for warmth and light. Without the sun, all life would perish on this earth in short order. By placing God's creation of light before the creation of the sun, the writer of Genesis might simply be making the point that we rely upon God more than anything He Himself creates. So, such a passage should be understood theologically more than scientifically, the former mode being the truth Scripture imparts to us first and foremost.

No one ever tries to say the Bible should be read as a science textbook, but to gain the truth necessary for our salvation.
When I read this I tend to get mixed messages as to what extent believers have faith in their own religion. I'm not trying to suggest you or anyone has a certain amount of doubt but it seems like there are inconsistencies depending on the message or the situation in explaining things to others.

Like when talking about the shape of the earth and pointing to faults in the Bible because [some] it's writers may have thought the earth was flat. Because almost everyone today knows the world isn't flat, Christians point to this part of the Bible as an allegory or a teaching moment to enlighten us about the intent of the Bible.

But when talking about evolution, the origin of the universe or the existence of a creator, Christians get more confident about the infallibility of the Bible or that it is truth because it is the word of God.

Often the arguments from Christianity I have the most respect for are the ones that are consistent: For example, the Christian who suggests the entire Bible is merely a guidebook that one shouldn't take seriously but sets a foundation for a virtuous lifestyle and a path to Heaven. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, the Christian who is absolutely certain that every word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally and accuses other Christians of being weak-willed against worldly temptations.
Posted 4/26/13
It's probably a very hungry place
Canute 
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Posted 4/27/13

JustineKo2 wrote:

When I read this I tend to get mixed messages as to what extent believers have faith in their own religion. I'm not trying to suggest you or anyone has a certain amount of doubt but it seems like there are inconsistencies depending on the message or the situation in explaining things to others.

Like when talking about the shape of the earth and pointing to faults in the Bible because [some] it's writers may have thought the earth was flat. Because almost everyone today knows the world isn't flat, Christians point to this part of the Bible as an allegory or a teaching moment to enlighten us about the intent of the Bible.

But when talking about evolution, the origin of the universe or the existence of a creator, Christians get more confident about the infallibility of the Bible or that it is truth because it is the word of God.

Often the arguments from Christianity I have the most respect for are the ones that are consistent: For example, the Christian who suggests the entire Bible is merely a guidebook that one shouldn't take seriously but sets a foundation for a virtuous lifestyle and a path to Heaven. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, the Christian who is absolutely certain that every word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally and accuses other Christians of being weak-willed against worldly temptations.


Well, I'd have to say that the Bible primarily contains truths necessary for our salvation. When it speaks outside of that, it might contain errors. Here's an explanation I found on Catholic Answers: 'Brown supports this claim by appealing to section 11 of the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), which reads, "we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." The phrase "for the sake of our salvation" is the key reference used to argue that only those things needed for our salvation (i.e., faith and morals) and not history and science, are free from error.'

And I think that makes sense, because we have human authors writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, whose primary desire was to write about faith and morals rather than history and science. If one starts making claims that the Bible is also historically and scientifically accurate, one is apt to be contradicted by the discoveries of the modern world or even historical errors in the text itself. But, I think that it just further shows the omnipotence of God in that He can use ancient people as He found them and prevent them from erring on faith and morals even if they did not have a perfect understanding of the world.

But, concerning the creation of the world, we know that God must have created the world from nothing--I refer you back to St. Thomas Aquinas' First, Second, and Fifth Way of demonstrating the existence of God. As to how He created everything, the Scriptures contain a very logical, orderly process, which differs from what science tells us. Of course, God might have relied on evolution to create new beings, but I myself find it difficult to see how human beings (rational beings capable of developing culture, civilization, and metaphysical studies) in particular could have derived from apes--no matter how similar we are genetically--and that it was necessary for God to breath life into creatures seems certain to me. After all, the leap from non-living to living things is huge, and science has not conclusively proven that it can happen.

So, I have extreme confidence in the Faith on a metaphysical and moral level; but, I do not trust people in 1000 BC to have an accurate vision of the physical world, no matter how precisely they wrote about the Faith.
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Posted 4/27/13 , edited 4/27/13
If morality (good and evil) is real and actually has an effect on the world, why doesnt it exist for anything but humanity? If a human kills their own child, its evil but if an animal eats its own child, its nature (meaning that it is a natural occurrence)

I think that the foundation of morality is the human ego and religion was born from the concept of morality. So the whole hell nonsense is just people's way of being vengeful without appearing to be evil. In the bible it says that God is the only one that is allowed to be vengeful but what would the creator of all the was, all that is and all that will be need with such an emotion? When I hear people say "youre going to hell for that" what I really hear is "I dont like what you did or what you said and I want something bad to happen to you because of it but I dont want to appear to be a bad person for ill will towards you so im just going to blame God instead"

People love to blame the invisible men for everything. Sounds like schizophrenia to me...
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Posted 4/27/13
Most of the translations of the Holy scriptures were based on the King James Version, Which unfortunatly was produced during that popular notion of a flat earth.
And I agree that man is a separate creation from apes, no matter how similar we look, and as regards Matthew 4:8, did you read the context at all?
What I mean is, did you check out the surrounding scriptures, He was in the wilderness, and after 40 days the " Tempter " remember first he tried to have Jesus turn rocks into loaves, but Jesus rebuked Satan not once but several times, In fact the last rebuke was after Satan took Jesus up to an " Unusually high mountain and showed All the Kingdoms of the world, (You know that kingdoms is the term for governments) Now you know that it would be impossible even if it was flat, which it wasn't, the focus was that all the kindom of the world belonged to satan or were under his authority, and that he could do with them what he could, he offered them to Jesus if Jesus would do one act of worship to him, (Satan).

But Jesus Flatly refused and rebuked him saying: " Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah* your God you must worship,+ and it is to him alone+ you must render sacred service.’” and then Satan left him alone and angels ministered to him. "

But since we got off topic, since it was about " Hell ", I hope that post helped some to see that Hell is not hot or a place of torment., but just the grave.
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Posted 4/27/13

AcadGlade wrote:

Most of the translations of the Holy scriptures were based on the King James Version, Which unfortunatly was produced during that popular notion of a flat earth.
And I agree that man is a separate creation from apes, no matter how similar we look, and as regards Matthew 4:8, did you read the context at all?
What I mean is, did you check out the surrounding scriptures, He was in the wilderness, and after 40 days the " Tempter " remember first he tried to have Jesus turn rocks into loaves, but Jesus rebuked Satan not once but several times, In fact the last rebuke was after Satan took Jesus up to an " Unusually high mountain and showed All the Kingdoms of the world, (You know that kingdoms is the term for governments) Now you know that it would be impossible even if it was flat, which it wasn't, the focus was that all the kindom of the world belonged to satan or were under his authority, and that he could do with them what he could, he offered them to Jesus if Jesus would do one act of worship to him, (Satan).

But Jesus Flatly refused and rebuked him saying: " Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah* your God you must worship,+ and it is to him alone+ you must render sacred service.’” and then Satan left him alone and angels ministered to him. "

But since we got off topic, since it was about " Hell ", I hope that post helped some to see that Hell is not hot or a place of torment., but just the grave.


The King James edition of the bible was written in 1611... We were pretty much past the whole flat earth thing by then. By about 2,200 years.

Turning rocks into loaves or rebuking satan doesnt answer the discussion. In fact you completely bypassed the entire thing. A true christian you are.

The bible is ripe with these errors even before the KJV. Wycliffe edition written in 1382 -

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall raise (up) a sign to (the) nations, and shall gather together the fleers-away of Israel; and he shall gather together the scattered men of Judah from [the] four coasts of [the] earth (yea, he shall gather together all those of Judah who be scattered unto the four corners of the earth).

Wow so now the earth has 4 corners and 4 coasts. Really?

Isaiah 40:22 Which sitteth on the compass of [the] earth, and the dwellers thereof be as locusts; which stretcheth forth heavens as nought, and spreadeth abroad those as a tabernacle to dwell (in). (It is he who sitteth above, or over, the roundness of the earth, and its inhabitants be like grasshoppers; it is he who stretcheth forth the heavens like a curtain, and spreadeth them abroad like a tent to live in.)

And now its round... Same book too... Wow... Just wow...

Face reality. Your bible is flawed. It errs. Why? I will tell you why. Because many of the stories in the bible were told word of mouth for many centuries. And then written down. No story is going to hold up that long and be told exactly as it was the first time. No matter how much your god wants it to be. While some of it may have been based on real events. Some of it is out right... made up. The next problem is that it has been translated and the translations translated so many times there is no way your going to get the jest of all of it.

Back years ago I did an experiment. I used an online translator with a multitude of languages. I typed in a simple phrase. "When the lie becomes the truth, print the lie." I then translated again and again. Copying the next text and putting it back in and translating it again. I ended up with something like this "I lie for truth." Meaning is now lost. And that was just from around 12 translations.

And those translations of the bible are from people with their own personal interpretations of it.

That is its biggest flaw of all, personal interpretation. One person reading a chapter can see it completely differently from the next. That not only makes it flawed... It also makes it incredibly dangerous when you consider just how much power the bible is given by mankind. It is a very dangerous weapon wielded by the egocentric among us to allow them to feel superior to others and to use it to justify their horrible actions.

And lastly but more importantly. The bible was written by man. And man is flawed. I know the come back to that is it was god's word. How can you be sure. God couldnt seem to make sure all the oral stories were written just as they happened. And you cant tell me that each translation is exactly how god wanted them. Man kind is a flawed species. We make mistakes. A misplaced comma here or word taken out there and we are flying backwards.

We have changed by leaps and bounds over the past 4 millenniums since the bible was first started.... We have changed beyond anything we could predict. The discoveries between then and now is amazing to behold. Where is your god with the updated version for these people of today? If he is all knowing and all seeing, how come he didnt predict we would get this advanced and would see this "perfect book" with an educated mind. That is why the christian religion (and others) is losing members by the dump truck loads. People are far more educated then a shepherd in the fields tending sheep around 2000 BC. There are fairy tales that make more sense to us then the bible does. The bible's belief factor ranks somewhere between the powerpuff girls and spongebob squarepants. So why couldnt he predict this? Why didnt he say "Oh yah in 4000 years people will be way more advanced then a flat earth or firmament believing shepherd. I need to give them Bible 2.0. And not just let them translate my bible into disbelief." He actually thought "People in the 20th century? Oh yah they will get it just fine. There wont be any questions about it."
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