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Post Reply Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet Discussion
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Posted 4/22/13 , edited 4/23/13

theguzzz wrote:


Except this isn't a battle between nations, its a fight against pirates. Does a fleet of pirates count as a "nation-state" armada? I can understand the concept of making decisions with consequences in mind, but allowing the pirates to ransack them has its own set of consequences. The pirates attacked because Ledo fought back, right? If he hadn't killed them, but still fought back anyway, wouldn't they still come after them to show them "who's the boss"? It doesn't even seem like killing the pirates matters because they pretty much established they don't like others fighting against them. Actually, thinking about that, it kinda makes the whole "no killing" theme a little pointless since just fighting back would bring about the same consequences.


Seeing as there is no land in this world what are fleets if not self contained groups of people(nations). Just like the real world there are nations that do whatever they want and most countries don't care or look the other way(NK, parts of Africa, parts of the middle east). Sticking your neck out just because pirates steal your salvage once in a while is not a good enough reason to declare war against a force strong enough to sink your entire nation. Bellow's herself only mentioned the salvage not "spare the crew" or "we surrender don't kill us." She was indignant in the face of these "blood-thirsty rapist murders," if they were actually that ruthless do you think she'd last 5 seconds before being executed along with the rest of the crew. Too many people are assuming facts not in evidence about this.

I'm sure people fight back all the time, hell fleets might even win sometimes against pirate raiding parties but how they typically fight with conventional weapons means casualties are low and damage to ships is not going to be enough to sink it outright before retreating. There was clearly some sort of unspoken agreement or ultimatum between the fleet admiral and the pirate Empress that as long as you don't go to far defending(total annihilation of their crew and ships) that she wouldn't attack their fleet directly because lets face it whats the point in killing the people you steal from? There is no logic in being bloodthirsty pirates in a world with finite resources human or otherwise, if you go around attacking every fleet directly they will all band together and wipe you out or perhaps the pirates could be crippled or destroyed by superior tactics, why risk it? If by some miracle you manage to murder and destroy all the other fleets what do you do then? Now you actually have to work for resources, did you see any food growing/raising ships in the pirate fleet or things of that nature? No because they steal everything not murder every single person they run into.
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Posted 4/22/13

tommythecat wrote:

Their ace in the hole is not a part of their crew and in fact has his own selfish reasons for being there as he explained to them. Suppose they wipe out the pirate fleet(which again could mean killing of innocents such as forced laborers and slaves), Ledo at this point has no ties with Gargantia meaning he could up and leave for space at any moment or switch to a different fleet that will meet his needs better. Gargantia becomes a giant target for not only pirates in other areas but of other relatively peaceful fleets wanting this superweapon tech for themselves.

There is reason and logic to the commanders being overly cautious and decide against annihilation and perhaps some of that is the fact that human lives are in short supply so they are precious on a water planet earth. However even beyond that, how is systematic genocide of an entire "nation-state" armada a choice that is okay to make on a whim? The commanders not only face direct consequences but unforeseen ones as well if they make rash decisions outside the scope of what amounts to political posturing and minor skirmishes between different nations.


Now you are arguing caution but before you were trying to play the 'pirates are people too' card.

Which is hypocrisy given the 'debate' about dumping Ledo overboard and taking his make.

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Posted 4/22/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Now you are arguing caution but before you were trying to play the 'pirates are people too' card.

Which is hypocrisy given the 'debate' about dumping Ledo overboard and taking his make.



What does one have to do with the other? Unless you want to actually specifically quote what I said and explain what you mean I don't understand your point.

Also there was no debate an option was put on the table and discarded soon after. When you discuss options sometimes unsavory ones will be suggested.
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Posted 4/22/13

theguzzz wrote:

Except this isn't a battle between nations, its a fight against pirates. Does a fleet of pirates count as a "nation-state" armada?


Based on what has been shown so far I definitely think Gargantia qualifies as a city-state or as close to one as it is possible to achieve in these circumstances. The pirates are harder to figure out since we have seen almost nothing of their internal functioning. Until more info is provided I would guess something like a loose tribal organization.
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Posted 4/22/13

Arondell1 wrote:


theguzzz wrote:

Except this isn't a battle between nations, its a fight against pirates. Does a fleet of pirates count as a "nation-state" armada?


Based on what has been shown so far I definitely think Gargantia qualifies as a city-state or as close to one as it is possible to achieve in these circumstances. The pirates are harder to figure out since we have seen almost nothing of their internal functioning. Until more info is provided I would guess something like a loose tribal organization.


Episode 3 said that the large formation of pirates was a collection of all the different ones in the area with the Lobsters being the most powerful and influential group in the area who were able to pull and lead all the different factions together in their attack on Gargantia.
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Posted 4/22/13

tommythecat wrote:

Bellow's herself only mentioned the salvage not "spare the crew" or "we surrender doing kill us." She was indignant in the face of these "blood-thirsty rapist murders," if they were actually that ruthless do you think she'd last 5 seconds before being executed along with the rest of the crew. Too many people are assuming facts not in evidence about this.
.


The context of her saying that to the pirates was very clearly that of a victim hoping the attacker will be satisfied and not hurt anyone else. Ruthless doesn't mean stupid. They killed the escorts earning the descriptor "bloodthirsty murderer" but they didn't blow up Bellows ship since that would be stupid. It contained the valuable cargo. Most of Bellows crew appeared to be under water except for the pilot. They didn't harm Bellows because her skills gave her potential value if they could get her to cooperate. They didn't kill the pilot because she was potential leverage over Bellows. Bellows is then specifically threatened as is her pilot.(The pilots shirt being ripped off counts.) Ruthless and reasonably intelligent. These are all the facts in evidence. Their bad luck Ledo showed up at the scene.
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Posted 4/22/13 , edited 4/22/13

theguzzz wrote:


tommythecat wrote:


theguzzz wrote:
That necessity is what makes them hypocrites, though. Telling Ledo that killing is wrong and yet saving the option for themselves is very hypocritical. As Arondell1 already said, the commander objects to Pinions idea because he's afraid of possible retaliation. So what does that mean? If the possibility of retaliation wasn't present, he would agree to throwing Ledo overboard? What does that mean to their whole "no killing" garbage? Seems like a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black to me.


Their ace in the hole is not a part of their crew and in fact has his own selfish reasons for being there as he explained to them. Suppose they wipe out the pirate fleet(which again could mean killing of innocents such as forced laborers and slaves), Ledo at this point has no ties with Gargantia meaning he could up and leave for space at any moment or switch to a different fleet that will meet his needs better. Gargantia becomes a giant target for not only pirates in other areas but of other relatively peaceful fleets wanting this superweapon tech for themselves.

There is reason and logic to the commanders being overly cautious and decide against annihilation and perhaps some of that is the fact that human lives are in short supply so they are precious on a water planet earth. However even beyond that, how is systematic genocide of an entire "nation-state" armada a choice that is okay to make on a whim? The commanders not only face direct consequences but unforeseen ones as well if they make rash decisions outside the scope of what amounts to political posturing and minor skirmishes between different nations.


Except this isn't a battle between nations, its a fight against pirates. Does a fleet of pirates count as a "nation-state" armada? I can understand the concept of making decisions with consequences in mind, but allowing the pirates to ransack them has its own set of consequences. The pirates attacked because Ledo fought back, right? If he hadn't killed them, but still fought back anyway, wouldn't they still come after them to show them "who's the boss"? It doesn't even seem like killing the pirates matters because they pretty much established they don't like others fighting against them. Actually, thinking about that, it kinda makes the whole "no killing" theme a little pointless since just fighting back would bring about the same consequences.


Here's the rub, though. We have no idea as to the social-political context of Earth of that time. As far as we know, those pirates are a "nation-state", and from the sound of things, the most powerful nation-state there is. The pirates didn't attack for revenge, but because there's this small fleet that just overpowered one of their fleets with a single machine. From the pirate's perspective, this makes the fleet a threat to their power, and needs to be eliminated or controlled.

And honestly, the whole "no killing" thing wasn't just pacifism, but a recognition of their status. Before Ledo came, they were just an ordinary fleet in a world with no land, and definitely not the biggest fleet out there. Killing enemies today would limit their trading partners tomorrow.

And then there's the fact that they are afraid of Ledo and what he can do. In their mind, Ledo has the power to eliminate the whole fleet with a thought, and there's very little they can do to stop him.


Which is hypocrisy given the 'debate' about dumping Ledo overboard and taking his make.


It's not really hypocrisy. There's a saying that it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know. The pirates they're familiar with, and for the most part, dealing with the pirates is just the cost of doing business.

Ledo, on the other hand, is a wild card, and a complete stranger. When the crew of the Gigantua first meet Ledo, he was just a stranger who couldn't speak their language and was standing in the way of their latest find. I think the reason for their lecture was because they were afraid of Ledo, and the awesome power that he could bear. When Ledo did his show of force on the pirates, it completely shattered the balance of power that the crew had with the pirates.
Posted 4/22/13
I was engaged, then transfixed, then... I seen the light.
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Posted 4/22/13 , edited 4/22/13
Keylnffxi...

pretty good point there mate...thats how I see it too...

but isnt this funny that we are all discussing these things from this one anime ... Urobuchi writtings always makes fans discuss a lot of things ...it happened during Psycho Pass too ...

I just rewatched some of his screenplay work of some episodes from the anime Phantom Requiem for the Phantom back in 09 and that series killed me too, I really want to rewatch episode 25 but I am afraid to watch it again...

need to watch Gargantia before i go to sleep
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Posted 4/23/13
You get people killed by doing things half assed. I realize it would make very boring viewing if the mecha killed everything all the time but atleast make it like some kind of "this is our warriors code everyone follows stop mucking it up dude!"
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Posted 4/23/13

keylnffxi wrote:



It's not really hypocrisy. There's a saying that it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know. The pirates they're familiar with, and for the most part, dealing with the pirates is just the cost of doing business.

Ledo, on the other hand, is a wild card, and a complete stranger. When the crew of the Gigantua first meet Ledo, he was just a stranger who couldn't speak their language and was standing in the way of their latest find. I think the reason for their lecture was because they were afraid of Ledo, and the awesome power that he could bear. When Ledo did his show of force on the pirates, it completely shattered the balance of power that the crew had with the pirates.



Telling the guy you were seriously considering drowning for being inconvienient, that it's not okay to kill humans. is HYPOCRISY.

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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

Rito2Ru wrote:

The only bad thing about episode 3 is when


agreed.boring preach. Someone said that there are two kinds of people in the world: support The death penalty system ones/the others. LOL
however it made me prefer for attack on titan than I am a week before
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Telling the guy you were seriously considering drowning for being inconvienient, that it's not okay to kill humans. is HYPOCRISY.



Okay it's hypocrisy, what's your point? If you have something to add go right ahead.

Life is full of gray areas and hypocrisy, is it so strange that it happens in this anime?
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

AnimeKami wrote:

bad politics

one side does the killing the other side says it is ok to let them kill us so long as they survive

i mean blame the guy who saved the livelihood of an entire population from getting ransacked. totally what I'd do /sarcasm

I do hope no one starts the argument of " you should never kill no matter what circumstances are "

edit: the worse thing is not about asking for help and not being appreciative, but is asking for help and blaming the helper


yeah.the worse thing let me a little uncomfortable. and which shock me most is,after the last episode, they continued to discuss how to deal with ledo!(like they have the capacity)
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

tommythecat wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Telling the guy you were seriously considering drowning for being inconvienient, that it's not okay to kill humans. is HYPOCRISY.



Okay it's hypocrisy, what's your point? If you have something to add go right ahead.

Life is full of gray areas and hypocrisy, is it so strange that it happens in this anime?


You were the one who started arguing that the Gargantuans were right because 'pirates are people too'.

Oh also it's not grey it's outright moral self contradiction. They wanted to drop Ledo overboard. (Presumably killing him) because he's INCONVENIENT.


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