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Post Reply Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet Discussion
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13



Which is hypocrisy given the 'debate' about dumping Ledo overboard and taking his make.


It's not really hypocrisy. There's a saying that it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know. The pirates they're familiar with, and for the most part, dealing with the pirates is just the cost of doing business.

Ledo, on the other hand, is a wild card, and a complete stranger. When the crew of the Gigantua first meet Ledo, he was just a stranger who couldn't speak their language and was standing in the way of their latest find. I think the reason for their lecture was because they were afraid of Ledo, and the awesome power that he could bear. When Ledo did his show of force on the pirates, it completely shattered the balance of power that the crew had with the pirates.


Telling the guy you were seriously considering drowning for being inconvienient, that it's not okay to kill humans. is HYPOCRISY.



The world isn't black and white. Ledo, a complete stranger, represented an immediate threat to the people of Gargantua. At best he was a stowaway. At worst, with his technology, he could have completely annihilated the ship. Throwing him overboard would have been the prudent choice.

And, to be fair, Ledo didn't exactly make a good first impression when he got out of Chamber.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


You were the one who started arguing that the Gargantuans were right because 'pirates are people too'.

Oh also it's not grey it's outright moral self contradiction. They wanted to drop Ledo overboard. (Presumably killing him) because he's INCONVENIENT.




You're right pirates are in fact meat popsicles.

Seriously though where did I ever state the Gargantia is right? I've said I understand their motives or reasonings and am arguing the contrary point of "lol why doesn't Chamber just slaughter all the pirates lol", I've been arguing what their logic was for the reason they reacted the way they did. You make it sound like I think killing is morally wrong and probably why you continue to latch on to this hypocrisy argument.

This is like talking to a brick wall, though I'd imagine a better conversation from masonry.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

keylnffxi wrote:



The world isn't black and white. Ledo, a complete stranger, represented an immediate threat to the people of Gargantua. At best he was a stowaway. At worst, with his technology, he could have completely annihilated the ship. Throwing him overboard would have been the prudent choice.

And, to be fair, Ledo didn't exactly make a good first impression when he got out of Chamber.


And the pirates were handing out candy and roses?

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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


keylnffxi wrote:



It's not really hypocrisy. There's a saying that it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know. The pirates they're familiar with, and for the most part, dealing with the pirates is just the cost of doing business.

Ledo, on the other hand, is a wild card, and a complete stranger. When the crew of the Gigantua first meet Ledo, he was just a stranger who couldn't speak their language and was standing in the way of their latest find. I think the reason for their lecture was because they were afraid of Ledo, and the awesome power that he could bear. When Ledo did his show of force on the pirates, it completely shattered the balance of power that the crew had with the pirates.



Telling the guy you were seriously considering drowning for being inconvienient, that it's not okay to kill humans. is HYPOCRISY.


"They" was one loudmouth who was more concerned with taking apart Ledo's machine to see what makes it tick than he was about anything else. The others considered turning him over to the pirates, and letting them deal with him. Ridgett wanted to "get rid of him." But she never suggested killing him. I figure she just wants to him to leave. There was never serious consideration of drowning him for being inconvenient or any other reason.
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Posted 4/23/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


And the pirates were handing out candy and roses?



no but it does make sense that they'd potential rather deal with pirates who they have dealt with before (by all accounts largely unharmed) than ledo hence the use of the devil you know vs the devil you don't argument
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Posted 4/23/13

tommythecat wrote:



Well it seems we agree on two things. The worthlessness of pirates, extortionists, terrorists and other scum. and the futility of pursuing this conversation further. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. just... I personally find the idea of preaching 'shades of grey' at the same time as you try to claim the moral high ground for the Gargantuans to be ludicrous
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Posted 4/23/13
What high ground am I claiming, I said I understand their motivations and their actions.

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Posted 4/23/13

tommythecat wrote:


Pirates seem willing to take hostages and slaves so is it okay to annihilate them as well? All we know about the pirates at this point is they attack small convoys to steal what other fleets try to salvage. If they got their jollies off on attacking fleets directly why would the Empress make the decision to teach the fleet commander of Gargatina a lessen for being so bold to completely destroy her raiding party.


Weather you meant it that way or not. and I presume not form the way the rest of this went, This came across as an attempt to sneak a moral element into the argument. Like the way people who want to 'look at root causes' for terrorist acts get attacked as bleeding hearts.

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Posted 4/23/13
Lol this only episode 3, 9 left cant wait to read the stuff people fathom about.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13
So far I'm really enjoying this series!

It should be interesting to see how Ledo spends his time in Gargantia. He already plays a big part in the fight against the pirates. Episode 2 and 3 pretty much explain that
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


tommythecat wrote:


Pirates seem willing to take hostages and slaves so is it okay to annihilate them as well? All we know about the pirates at this point is they attack small convoys to steal what other fleets try to salvage. If they got their jollies off on attacking fleets directly why would the Empress make the decision to teach the fleet commander of Gargatina a lessen for being so bold to completely destroy her raiding party.


Weather you meant it that way or not. and I presume not form the way the rest of this went, This came across as an attempt to sneak a moral element into the argument. Like the way people who want to 'look at root causes' for terrorist acts get attacked as bleeding hearts.



Looks like a classic case of misunderstanding between us, I was never making excuses for the pirates only offering up possibilities as to how the political posturing and status quo of this world might work. I've never been of the mind that the pirates are somehow in the right here but there is varying degree's of evil and as such should be varying degrees of response to it which is why I argued that (with what we know so far) complete annihilation of the pirates is drastic and there could be other factors which we don't know about that the Gargantian fleet commanders have to consider.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

tommythecat wrote:



Looks like a classic case of misunderstanding between us, I was never making excuses for the pirates only offering up possibilities as to how the political posturing and status quo of this world might work. I've never been of the mind that the pirates are somehow in the right here but there is varying degree's of evil and as such should be varying degrees of response to it which is why I argued that (with what we know so far) complete annihilation of the pirates is drastic and there could be other factors which we don't know about that the Gargantian fleet commanders have to consider.


Fair enough, and actually a reasonable statement. And I agree about the misunderstanding. I was probably over reacting the message I -thought- I read, since it's floated around a lot since the debate started. I have an innate contrarian streak that produces a knee jerk attempt to the play the devil's advocate even when I mostly agree with someone. A streak that get's stronger the more flaws I perceive in the position or the more forcefully it's presented. Also, I hate bullies, Bullying type behaviour including abuse of authority, extortion, etc... provokes a visceral response from me. To my emotions, the pirates' behaviour warranted the death penalty. These two traits probably led me a little astray this time around.

(oh and though I agree it's not germane to a realpolitik argument, I still the think the gargantuan's are hypocrites for exercising political decision making then chastising Ledo on moral grounds that are shakey given their actual behaviour. I also think they're fools to think they have any control over Ledo's fate that doesn't involve negotiation or a stealthy knife in his dismounted back)
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Posted 4/23/13
^^ it kinda plays on the role the only thing keeping ledo from ruling earth as a supreme tyrant is his sense or lack of any personal gain.

I mean the guy turned down reproduction for god sakes, the most primitive of primitive things next to eating.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13

AnimeKami wrote:

^^ it kinda plays on the role the only thing keeping ledo from ruling earth as a supreme tyrant is his sense or lack of any personal gain.

I mean the guy turned down reproduction for god sakes, the most primitive of primitive things next to eating.





I like how the story is going. Ledo is a young guy even if he is to rule water version earth he would rule wisely, being taught by the boat folks.


He will learn the ways of eating corpses of birds and aquatic animals.
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Posted 4/23/13 , edited 4/23/13


hi,

just so you know I didn't report you

in other news

the anime will most likely settle down in ep 4 and amy will show ledo around. I have this feeling that he will show expressions much like to the dead fish.

this is nice boat anime all over it as well
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