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Applying Occam's razor to theory of Jesus birth.
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Posted 6/19/13

_Shizuma


I think you're very much missing the point, love - if it's OK to call you that. Your philosophy 101 arguments fail to elucidate or even address the matter at hand while your attempt to seem circumspect by withholding a strong opinion on the topic of discussion is annoying, incongruous verbiage notwithstanding.


No... I haven't missed the point. The POINT is to apply Occam's razor to the "theories" regarding the virgin birth of Jesus. MY point is that this exercise is practically rendered futile when one takes into account the world view of the person holding the razor.

The original post proposes:

Applying Occam's razor to Jesus's birth, we can introduce it to a few known Hypothesis in order to come up with the most likely theory.


.
1. Jesus was born from an affair with another man (very likely possibility compared to being a virgin birth. )

2. The fact that Jesus was fictional character based off from other religions who have used the idea of a virgin birth 1000's of years before the birth of that religion. ( Horus's virgin birth )

3. Jesus was born from a Dracs who do virgin births. ( not very likely.)...

4. Jesus is born from a God who could not find a better way to create him self a human body.



Now using Occam's Razor what is the most likely outcome to how Jesus came to be?


Now, using the brief definition of Occam's razor that is also supplied in the original post:

Occam's razor "simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones"

IF we apply Occam's razor to any of the above theories AND we have a world view that DENIES the supernatural, PROBABLY the conclusion to draw would be that Jesus was born from an affair with another man, because that is the simplest explanation, after taking the biblical record of events into account. In this instance, there really isn't any extra-biblical record of detail regarding the birth of Jesus or his mother's virginity (not that I'm aware of... ?), sooo... we'll work with what we've got, neh? This, too, however, ASSUMES that Joseph was NOT Jesus's father, but if we wanted to introduce THAT theory: Joseph was Jesus' father and they both lied about it to avoid getting the stink-eye for engaging in pre-marital sex, we might have a simpler explanation still - ie. Joseph and Mary had sex. Ergo JESUS! (9 months later, these things just HAPPEN, lol.) In fact, now that I think about it, again using the bible as a reference, I don't even think anyone would have or did give them the stink-eye... It seems from THIS passage, that the people in Jesus' time maybe had already applied Occam's razor and just assumed he was Joseph's kid, lol:

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph..." (Luke 3:23, KJV).

HOWEVER.

IF we apply Occam's razor to any of the above theories AND we have a world view that ACCEPTS the supernatural... well... the simplest explanation, after taking the biblical record of events into account, again... is just... to believe in the virgin birth. There becomes no REASON to go out of our way and posit anything contrary to the story we have been told. In THIS case, with this world view, anything that goes out of the way to FIRST assume the proposed details are false and SECOND explain WHY the story was unnecessarily concocted, is contrary to the application of Occam's razor. The simplest explanation for the origin of the story is its truth. I mean... what is the POINT of Jesus' friends and family making up a crazy story like that after the fact (or before the fact... that'd be even WEIRDER if it wasn't true, lol)? Pssshhaaa... he was already dead & gone, why dredge up the past and question his paternity and stuff? What did they have to benefit from it? Just trying to convince their contemporaries he was the messiah? Feels a little hollow & unnecessary & a weird way of mourning their buddy was crucified - just sayin'.

And that is my point.

Depending on your world view, you get a different result from applying Occam's razor. So, it's not a great tool to attempt to get at Truth or Reality (if one believes in Truth & Reality).

As to my personal opinion of whether Jesus was born of a virgin or not... don't see how it applies or why you find it annoying that I haven't stated it.

And please, by all means, call me "love," but don't insult my sentences. There's nothing particularly incongruous about my verbiage. Also, my arguments (if you can really term them arguments...) didn't come from philosophy 101. :D


_Shizuma

To claim an argument on the existence of a person cannot be discussed on the basis of evidence is contemptible and you should feel thoroughly ashamed of yourself. If you actually read earlier arguments, though I doubt you capable of reading any long work, you would see you're sidestepping the entire discussion at hand.

If one accepts a suspension of the natural order, the virgin birth, based of no evidence they convict themselves of being both: very stupid, and very credulous. And yes, the argument of the suspension of the natural order "miracle" vs. a grave misapprehension does have a winning side, the side that has the virtue of being measurable and observable.

You're also grossly misinterpreting previous statements (I repeat, I would implore you to actually read the discussion and hand), no one is saying the virgin birth was impossible, and reducing previous arguments to "Do you or I have a world view that is capable of recognizing the 'supernatural?'" is retarded, truly. Don't you believe, in all truth and sincerity, that if one day, perhaps tomorrow, proof was found that Jesus was born of a virgin, that all religious zealots would jump on that fact? "We have proof! We were right! We knew it all along!" they'd scream at the top of their lungs and in television interviews across the world. Then how come that isn't a reciprocal relation? How come proof seems to be a one way street? When there is a complete lack of evidence, you spew the retarded line "it doesn't matter, because 'supernatural' durr I took philosophy 101 I am brilliant i like dough." You can't expect to have it both ways; please, you won't get away with it, love.

Ahem. Why the hostility, love?
Also.
NOTE: I have not claimed that we cannot discuss any argument on the existence of any person. Therefore, I am not thoroughly ashamed.
NOTE: I am perfectly capable of reading long works and have read many. I enjoy reading. Neither have I sidestepped the discussion. I have merely gone back to the ORIGINAL post and commented on whether it is worthwhile to apply Occam's razor or not.

Question: when you say "based of [sic] no evidence" what do you mean? Are you stating that there is NO evidence that Jesus was born or that he was born of a virgin? Why would we be having this discussion if there was NO evidence? There has to be SOME evidence SOMEWHERE or we would not be entertaining the idea. However, if you are saying that the evidence that Jesus was born of a virgin should be discounted OR that it is outweighed by other evidence to the contrary - that is fine and acceptable. But, is your acceptance or denial of evidence dependent on your world view? That's important to recognize. That's all I'm saying.

Second question: what would constitute "proof" on EITHER side that Jesus was or was not born of a virgin?
It seems to me that "proof" is a rather subjective term - at least, with regard to this argument. I say that because what one considers "proof" cannot really be separated from the world view that's already in place.

I propose that the real CRUX of the issue - whether I choose to accept or deny the proposed virgin birth of Jesus - has far less to do with evidence that can be amassed for or against that proposition than it has to do with the question of whether one accepts the supernatural or not.

Say, for the moment that we were having a debate over whether our friend Jimmy saw an extraterrestrial aircraft, based on a journal entry we discovered after his death. In the entry, it tells a story and records the details of what he saw and offers up his belief that it was peeps from outerspace. You and I could read that entry 50 times over and discuss whether this light or that light could have been the moon or Jupiter or an airplane or a solar eclipse. We could go to the site and take soil samples that may or may not prove anything. We could look for other witnesses. We could check for related news articles. We could yell at each other and call one another stupid or insult each other's sentences until we're blue in the face. But at the end of the day - if you don't believe in the existence of extra-terrestrials - no amount of evidence can convince you that's what he saw. And, similarly, if you DO believe in extra-terrestrials, well... you might just CHOOSE to believe Jimmy's assertion. And THAT's my point. The fact remains that, really and truly, there is no way to unequivocally PROVE that it's NOT what he saw, barring PROOF that aliens don't EXIST. You can offer up plenty of alternative things that might be more plausible to believe, sure. But, for the person who says: "YES. There IS a such a thing as extra-terrestrial life capable of space travel" ... ehhh... that always COULD have been what he saw.

So, what is "proof?" What is "evidence?"
You can't even REALLY make that call until you've already identified your presupposition: Do you believe that extraterrestrial life capable of space travel exists?

If the answer is NO. Pffftttt... forget the debate, man. Whatever he saw, it wasn't a starship.
If the answer is YES. Maybe you choose to believe it was a spaceship... maybe you choose to believe it was a weather balloon. But the evidence you consider to determine that conclusion is FUNDAMENTALLY different than the evidence you would consider otherwise.

So, then. Back to Jesus. Virgin birth yes? Virgin birth no?
Evidence? Proof? Occam's razor?

pffffttttt... what's your world view FIRST? If you don't believe in the supernatural, what's the point? You CAN'T be convinced.

Does everyone in this thread believe in the supernatural? Doubtful. Do YOU believe in the supernatural? Who knows...
That's why I say, get a bunch of people who DO believe in the supernatural to discuss this virgin birth business or even someone else's supernatural birth to debate this issue. THEN it suddenly becomes more interesting (in my opinion, anyway).

Like luxurieux said:

I noticed a while back that many famous religious figures have stories such as these, impossibles stories, describing their birth. Why is it that the birth of Jesus from a virgin is so widely accepted, and yet we describe the birth of the Buddha as ridiculous, impossible, completely unrealistic? Is it any more believable that a woman was approached by an angel and was impregnated by a mysterious man in the sky?


And as I previously said (yup. I'm quoting myself. I IS a pretentious fool):

Now. IF we get a bunch of people who ALL believe in the "supernatural" to start discussing the legitimacy of THIS particular virgin birth over the ligitimacy of some OTHER virgin birth or likewise "supernatural" birthing of a deity or deity-like figure... that could be more interesting (the ASSUMPTION being that they are mutually exclusive - which may or may not be true [if one believes in Truth & Reality]).


I think such a discussion would be more interesting... because at least there's the POSSIBILITY of winning someone over to one side or the other. Meh. It just seems that otherwise we're destined for a stalemate, yo. Peeps be having the world views they be having. ;P
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Posted 6/19/13 , edited 6/19/13
I do believe what I believe about god. Don't get me wrong. When I was a kid my family was hard core pentecostal I know that dosn't really mean anything to others but it was beat into my head that god is real and I believe it. Now If its a non- believer wanting to fuss with me about gods existance I will try to convience them maybe but if its a person who believes in god but in their own way...I have learned to let it go and let them believe what is right to them and even non-believers. It just depends on a persons additude or how they come on to me about it. So do you believe in god?

Oh yeah and yes even tho I strongly believe what I believe I do have my moments where I think hard about it and doubt it. Im human, I can't help it, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe.

There is no actual proof in my opinion. See you may think differently and thats fine. Im not going to conveince or push my belief on anyone, but I will share it and yeah sometimes debate it. I could dig and dig and try my best to find out if what I believe is believable but I will find no evidence other than what is said in the bible. Its all about faith. Having faith that its real.

Yes their can be logic to your understanding and yes you can reason, but proof....show it to me.

All I know is that Im living and so are other like me and me like them and their is a vast space beyound or world. It baffles me. I have no reason to not actually believe in a creator.

My understanding is that he is an unseen spirit and one thing that always gets on my nerves is when a person says " if its real than god will come down right now," Well first off he did come down into a living body to feel what his creation feels. He is an unseen spirit that can take form as he pleases.

This is a contradictive subject. I have a certain understanding.
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Posted 6/19/13
lol. Love this!
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Posted 6/20/13

MarshDiamond wrote:
Don't get me wrong. When I was a kid my family was hard core pentecostal I know that dosn't really mean anything to others but it was beat into my head that god is real and I believe it.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the way you phrase this, it sounds like your religion is something that your parents chose for you. That it was not something that you chose out of your own free will, and that you were indoctrinated into believing it. Brainwashed essentially.
Doesn't that bother you even a little bit?




MarshDiamond
So do you believe in god?


I was raised in a religious household and I used to believe until not too long ago.
I do not believe any more however. Once I started to contemplate how religion stands up to scrutiny, both from a scientific standpoint and from a pure logical one, it just didn't make sense to me to believe any more.




MarshDiamond
There is no actual proof in my opinion. See you may think differently and thats fine. Im not going to conveince or push my belief on anyone, but I will share it and yeah sometimes debate it. I could dig and dig and try my best to find out if what I believe is believable but I will find no evidence other than what is said in the bible. Its all about faith. Having faith that its real.

Yes their can be logic to your understanding and yes you can reason, but proof....show it to me.


Well I would hate to shove my beliefs on you. After all, I know how annoying that can be. But if you want an example, we can simply use the Bible's own logical fallacy to debunk it.
In this instance, we'll take the story of Noah's Ark, and the great flood.
Rather than type it out in length, I'll provide you with this short cartoon, which addresses it pretty neatly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I225Vcs3X0g




MarshDiamond
All I know is that I'm living and so are other like me and me like them and their is a vast space beyound or world. It baffles me. I have no reason to not actually believe in a creator.


This is a type of reasoning that I myself used to practice, and one that my mother especially still uses.
And forgive me if I sound rude, but really, it is nothing but a reasoning born from scientific ignorance. After I got interested in science and gained more knowledge and understanding of the mechanics of the universe, I found that contemplating a universe without a creator is not hard at all. And once I realized that, that was another big chunk of my basis for faith that evaporated into thin air.
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Posted 6/22/13
Perfect beings are suppose to be hairless, jesus doesn't need shaving
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Posted 6/22/13
I am not Christian but isn't this discussion a little going overboard ?
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Posted 6/23/13 , edited 6/23/13
Hell no my parents didn't choose how I believe? lol. I am not pentecostal at all. Pentecostal, and please forgive my language but some are alittle f-ed up. I have decided that I don't actually have a religion but yes I do believe in god and went through the I don't believe in god thing. The reason I do not have a religion is because there are so many that humans have branched off in different categories of their own belief so I believe that you should believe in god in your own way. And I will never call myself a christian. I can't stand that term. Im not trying to be mean but Ive had people try to throw me that science mess before. I believe in science and I believe that humans are capable of creating many things to an extent without out a higher-being or whatever you want to call it if gods offensive but to me its gods knowlege. Science is god in my opinion if you get what I mean. Lots of people go to school and major in physics and science and all that good stuff and start to believe that their is no god once they learn that knowlege. Just think of it this way how were people created? I know this is thrown out there all the time and it gets old and don't give me that evolution mess because I didn't come from a monkey lol. I do believe that people evolved over time tho.... just as many other creatures, but we are all or own species......not derived from the other. Heres something to think about.......There is no such thing as non-existance as we know it because we are here. You may not understand what I mean because its deep thought. Alright I wish could explain this better but this topic burns me out sometimes because we can share opinions which is interesting but we can't convience eachother.

I know one thing for damn sure....I sure as hell can't create a universe with many galaxys with planets that can function properly and put creatures on them. I don't have that knowlege and humans will never be able to do that. Never. So I can't tell you why and you can't tell me why. Why is that? How does the universe run on its own within a space of no time and non-existence? But yet things appear as they are? Why have I already contradicted my self? Its unexplainable. Humans can not wrap their minds around space. We can only learn so much to an extent. Which is how it works. When you think about all these things it makes you doubt a god. Why is there a good and evil? Why isn't there just one side? If you don't mind telling me what was a god to you? To me its an unseen force that can't communicate with its creation because its not what it created. It created what it wanted to be. To me its called god. I know all this sound like Im crazy but you asked and i told from my opinion and view. I had a talk with a guy one time that was athiest and I asked him so many unexplainable questions that he actually told me that he was doubting his belief lol. If you don't believe in god.....don't even doubt him or mention the name god. It should totally be nothing to you at all. People who don't believe shouldn't even questions the ones who do. Whats the point? God should not be thought about or even said if you don't believe. Why is he always in peoples minds and why do people get angree at the ones who believe in god if you don't? Vice versa. God obviously angers people like that? Why do men believe they are the superior being if they don't believe in god? That shouldn't even cross their minds, because that is fully bible based that men are rulers of the earth. Thats a question Ive asked and it digs deep to some. Another thing I can't stand is when a non-believer says fuck god where the hell is he when I need him? .....gods all around us. Okay I have to stop.

I wish I could take the time to really break it down besides rant as I do haha, but I just can't.
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Posted 6/23/13
Yes lmao. Yes it is. but thats okay people are couious of others.
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Posted 6/23/13 , edited 6/23/13

MarshDiamond wrote:

Hell no my parents didn't choose how I believe? lol. I am not pentecostal at all. Pentecostal, and please forgive my language but some are alittle f-ed up. I have decided that I don't actually have a religion but yes I do believe in god and went through the I don't believe in god thing. The reason I do not have a religion is because there are so many that humans have branched off in different categories of their own belief so I believe that you should believe in god in your own way. And I will never call myself a christian. I can't stand that term.


I see.




MarshDiamond
Just think of it this way how were people created? I know this is thrown out there all the time and it gets old and don't give me that evolution mess because I didn't come from a monkey lol. I do believe that people evolved over time tho.... just as many other creatures, but we are all or own species......not derived from the other.


Well the thing is, we can trace our genes back to our comon acestors. We have a firmly established, proven branch on the tree of life that can be traced all the way back through time. We've seen the transitional fossiles of our ancestors. We have "monkey" genes in our DNA. Our DNA differs from chimps with a margin of only 1%. And if you look at the human body, you can see proof of bodily functions that we used to have, but don't any more.
And if you look at our fellow primate cousins today, you'll see that their way of behaviour is remarkable similar to ours in many ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eubDSQrFako
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWxCM6llL60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYD6KZsOjxw

And I'm sorry if this is rude, but this really isn't something that is up for discussion. This is something that has been PROVEN. Those that argue otherwise do so because they are ignorant regarding the evidence.




MarshDiamond
I know one thing for damn sure....I sure as hell can't create a universe with many galaxys with planets that can function properly and put creatures on them. I don't have that knowlege and humans will never be able to do that. Never. So I can't tell you why and you can't tell me why. Why is that? How does the universe run on its own within a space of no time and non-existence? But yet things appear as they are?
Why have I already contradicted my self? Its unexplainable. Humans can not wrap their minds around space. We can only learn so much to an extent. Which is how it works.


That argument is one that can be used on God himself. So if we can't wrap our mind around the supposed work that God has done, we surely could not wrap our minds around him. So really, the only reason to use that argument as a reason to believe is simply because it would be "easier" than not to. Not because it has any actual logical weight to it.
And the fact of the matter is that the universe doesn't HAVE to have a creator. The universe could just as well exist on its own.

As for our knowledge, we don't really know how far it can extend. Modern humans have only been on this earth for a few thousand years. We didn't get science until just a couple thousand years ago, and we are only at the very beginning of a scientific explosion that will only increase in magnitude and speed as time goes by.
To say that we will never be able to wrap our minds around space is terrible short sighted.




MarshDiamond
When you think about all these things it makes you doubt a god. Why is there a good and evil? Why isn't there just one side? If you don't mind telling me what was a god to you? To me its an unseen force that can't communicate with its creation because its not what it created. It created what it wanted to be. To me its called god. I know all this sound like Im crazy but you asked and i told from my opinion and view.


To me, God was the classic christian god. Man in the heavens, watching over us and all that.
I must say I don't really understand where you get your version of God from. From what you've told me, it seems like your God is cut off entirely from its creation, in which case, it might as well not even exist. Because if that is the case, then what difference does it make in the long run?




MarshDiamond
I had a talk with a guy one time that was athiest and I asked him so many unexplainable questions that he actually told me that he was doubting his belief lol. If you don't believe in god.....don't even doubt him or mention the name god. It should totally be nothing to you at all. People who don't believe shouldn't even questions the ones who do. Whats the point?
God should not be thought about or even said if you don't believe. Why is he always in peoples minds and why do people get angree at the ones who believe in god if you don't? Vice versa. God obviously angers people like that? Why do men believe they are the superior being if they don't believe in god? That shouldn't even cross their minds, because that is fully bible based that men are rulers of the earth.


Because regardless of wheather there exist a God or not, God is still a concept that exists in the world today, and that has a tremendous impact on it. To simply ignore a factor with such a ginormous influence on the way societies work would be downright foolish. Not to mention it would be apathetic, which is one of the gravest sins imaginable to anyone who wants to make things better.

And that is also why we must question religion. Look at the middle east, where Islam is law. Peole are suffering needlessly every day because of the savagery that religion has caused.
And that is just one of the many examples. To put an end to such suffering, we MUST place religion under scrutiny. It will never change otherwise.

As for why we are superior... well because as far as we know, we are the most intelligent species on this planet.
That has nothing to do with religion. It's simple observation.
Posted 6/25/13
lol why is this forum always filled with religious bullshit?
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Posted 6/25/13

Iainfixie wrote:

lol why is this forum always filled with religious bullshit?


Maybe because this is a thread regarding religion?
Posted 6/25/13

Syndicaidramon wrote:


Iainfixie wrote:

lol why is this forum always filled with religious bullshit?


Maybe because this is a thread regarding religion?


Nah, I can count maybe 20-40 threads on pages 1 and 2 of the different subforums filled with fairy tale nonsensery. I come here for anime content not silly tales about magic sky wizards.
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Posted 6/25/13

Iainfixie wrote:


Syndicaidramon wrote:


Iainfixie wrote:

lol why is this forum always filled with religious bullshit?


Maybe because this is a thread regarding religion?


Nah, I can count maybe 20-40 threads on pages 1 and 2 of the different subforums filled with fairy tale nonsensery. I come here for anime content not silly tales about magic sky wizards.


Here's a crazy idea: If that's all you want, then stay in the "Entertainment" subsection of the forum.
Posted 6/25/13 , edited 6/25/13



Syndicaidramon wrote:Here's a crazy idea: If that's all you want, then stay in the "Entertainment" subsection of the forum.



How 'bout no and I'll continue to voice how silly religious folks are, if i have to put up with that lunacy I have full reign to spread my own opinions as well.





(Just be glad I chose a less offensive image from my "piss off religious nuts" folder!)
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Posted 6/25/13

Iainfixie wrote:

Nah, I can count maybe 20-40 threads on pages 1 and 2 of the different subforums filled with fairy tale nonsensery. I come here for anime content not silly tales about magic sky wizards.


How does anime content differ from silly tales about magic sky wizards?
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