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Post Reply I give up, I *don't* get the Guilty Crown hate...*spoilers*
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Posted 4/29/13
I have yet to finish the series(only on episode 19), but I agree for the most part that Guilty crown is not a bad anime, in fact I thought it was one my favorite animes in awhile until Hare died and everything went dark. It reminded me a lot of Eureka Seven until shit hit the fan real hard. I wish there was a little more character development, such as why Ayase became crippled and such, but anyway I think GC isn't as bad as they say it is, but it could have been better IMO.
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Posted 4/29/13

zipzo wrote:


tehstud wrote:

Guilty Crown is truly worthy and deserving of it's throne...

for terribad animes of 2011-2, and possibly, of all-time.


That's a brilliant argument/summation of points you have there. There is no throne for such a thing and if there was it wouldn't be on it even if it was the worst because it started in 2011. Try again. What's your 2012 best anime of all time for reference?


... shared only with SAO.

My rancor is warranted, common sense demands it. And for the majority of those who like[d] the show, it's blind adulation. The Guilty Crown fan base is similar to that of the SAO fan base, enamored by pretty art, cool fights, and great sounds and tunes (I won't insult you by including the... pandering). But for those of us who actually WATCH, and I mean watch, it's a steaming pile of dump. Characters are intolerable and inconsistent, to say the least, some may argue they are realistic- I don't see it. Character 180s with nonsensical catalysts, and sometimes, nonexistent- remember Arisa... yeahhh, the faaack..................................

Best anime of 2012, you ask? For me, It'd be Hunter x Hunter (2011).
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13

EspeoangeTieler wrote:


zipzo wrote:


tehstud wrote:

Guilty Crown is truly worthy and deserving of it's throne...

for terribad animes of 2012, and possibly, of all-time.


That's a brilliant argument/summation of points you have there. There is no throne for such a thing and if there was it wouldn't be on it even if it was the worst because it started in 2011. Try again. What's your 2012 best anime of all time for reference?


probably bleach lul


Why the lul? Bleach is better than this trainwreck. It is atleast enjoyable.
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Posted 4/29/13
just proves my point
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13

EspeoangeTieler wrote:

just proves my point


Not in the slightest. All I said was Bleach was better than Guilty Crown, what I had previously stated as, 'King of Terribad Animes 2012'.
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Posted 4/29/13

tehstud wrote:


EspeoangeTieler wrote:

just proves my point


Not in the slightest. All I said was Bleach was better than Guilty Crown, what I had previously stated as, 'King of Terribad Animes 2012'- obviously I think verrryyy highly of Bleach if I consider it better than sparkly shit.


obviously you have no idea what im talking about and thats ok
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Posted 4/29/13
Its very hard for me to review this anime. In part its because I feel that it did an amazing job in some areas while fumbling completely in others. I absolutely loved the first twelve episodes but once episode thirteen hit something just changed. It seemed like characters moods would rapidly change and the story became a bit fuzzy. Don't get me wrong, i still enjoyed the anime and my favorite scene was after the initial twelve episodes but it just seemed like the first and second parts of the show were written by two very different people.
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Posted 4/29/13

Gettnlag wrote:

Its very hard for me to review this anime. In part its because I feel that it did an amazing job in some areas while fumbling completely in others. I absolutely loved the first twelve episodes but once episode thirteen hit something just changed. It seemed like characters moods would rapidly change and the story became a bit fuzzy. Don't get me wrong, i still enjoyed the anime and my favorite scene was after the initial twelve episodes but it just seemed like the first and second parts of the show were written by two very different people.


I second that. Though I don't remember too much of the anime (my memory sucks...) I remember telling myself that GC was pretty inconsistent in its production. Beginning story was pretty well done, but then came Gai (yea Gai right?) who literally came back from the "dead" with a whole new personality kit. Perhaps the contrast was too much for me or his reasons were not explained to me sufficiently, but characters like Gai felt "off". I just could not accept that. Inori included. I remember telling myself that her transformation into the visual "monster" was a bit too fast (if only she had that capacity in the beginning! without the madness thrown in of course). I get her reasoning; I get her external situation...just the pacing of that one psychological concept was too rushed for me to appreciate fully. Got other squirmish qualms but overall I did not hate it. I just felt the makers were trying to tackle too much with too little time. Had good potential to be even better imo.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 8/19/13

fireiceearth wrote:


Gettnlag wrote:

Its very hard for me to review this anime. In part its because I feel that it did an amazing job in some areas while fumbling completely in others. I absolutely loved the first twelve episodes but once episode thirteen hit something just changed. It seemed like characters moods would rapidly change and the story became a bit fuzzy. Don't get me wrong, i still enjoyed the anime and my favorite scene was after the initial twelve episodes but it just seemed like the first and second parts of the show were written by two very different people.


I second that. Though I don't remember too much of the anime (my memory sucks...) I remember telling myself that GC was pretty inconsistent in its production. Beginning story was pretty well done, but then came Gai (yea Gai right?) who literally came back from the "dead" with a whole new personality kit. Perhaps the contrast was too much for me or his reasons were not explained to me sufficiently, but characters like Gai felt "off". I just could not accept that. Inori included. I remember telling myself that her transformation into the visual "monster" was a bit too fast (if only she had that capacity in the beginning! without the madness thrown in of course). I get her reasoning; I get her external situation...just the pacing of that one psychological concept was too rushed for me to appreciate fully. Got other squirmish qualms but overall I did not hate it. I just felt the makers were trying to tackle too much with too little time. Had good potential to be even better imo.


Totally agree. Given the quality of Guilty Crown in most areas, the potential was definitely there for it to be even what the haters wished it was. Can't win them all, I say. Guilty Crown won't be the last anime we see from those directors/writers, and if Guilty Crown is any indication to what we may see moving forward...well you can't say that it's not exciting to think about.

I would advise that they look at their story structure, and try to balance it out more, characters and all, and their next series may lead to be even greater.

I think the difference between me and others is I don't see squandered potential as a gigantic sin. There's so much about Guilty Crown's supposed potential that I've read. So it didn't meet what you felt was its maximum potential...it happens! Have you ever completed something that could have been better? Haven't we all? At the most your time was wasted if you really felt the series was just that terrible, there's no cardinal sin being committed. They don't need to be spanked over the knee for what they've done. They spent lots of time, money, and effort creating something that would entertain you. It worked for me. I see it as a learning experience. If Guilty Crown was the learning experience, I'm more than happy to see the next thing they put out at the same production level.
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Posted 4/29/13

fireiceearth [link url="/forumtopic-801333/i-give-up-i-dont-get-the-guilty-crown-hatespoilers?fpid=42991433" title="View

Totally agree. Given the quality of Guilty Crown in most areas, the potential was definitely there for it to be even what the haters wished it was. Can't win them all, I say. Guilty Crown won't be the last anime we see from those directors/writers, and if Guilty Crown is any indication to what we may see moving forward...well you can't say it that's not exciting to think about.

I would advise that they look at their story structure, and try to balance it out more, characters and all, and their next series may lead to be even greater.

I think the difference between me and others is I don't see squandered potential as a gigantic sin. There's so much about Guilty Crown's supposed potential that I've read. So it didn't meet what you felt was its maximum potential...it happens! Have you ever completed something that could have been better? Haven't we all? At the most your time was wasted if you really felt the series was just that terrible, there's no cardinal sin being committed. They don't need to be spanked over the knee for what they've done. They spent lots of time, money, and effort creating something that would entertain you. It worked for me. I see it as a learning experience. If Guilty Crown was the learning experience, I'm more than happy to see the next thing they put out at the same production level.


Putting it that way, then yes, GC was golden. I remember it had everything a good anime could have (suspense, drama, originality even (original enough)) and I can really see it be used and played around with in future anime production (kinda what I do with my video projects). I do give credit to its makers (anime making in general just amazes me!); really, though, for all the negatives I have against GC, most of it I'm pretty sure comes from the industry's low budget and the difficulty to appease the masses overall. It's already hard enough drawing in keyframes and keeping consistent with the overall storyboard...

A lot of people don't think of that (moi included), especially when sitting down expecting to enjoy the next 25ish minutes, which is why it's so easy to critique from our angle and never from a bigger picture. I don't think you fall into this trap too often:), which is commendable.

But it's good to criticize. Good to poke holes at what seems perfect (literature...especially literature). Makes us all the more perspective. No offense to the makers or the anime as a work of art, but it's only natural to judge what could of been with what it is. I think 2nd season of Higurashi plays around with this idea...oh the themes...XD.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13

zipzo wrote:

I'm of the mind to believe that Guilty Crown wasn't prepared for the kind of harsh judgment it would received. Something leads me to believe that they couldn't comprehend the scrutinization they would endure. What if Guilty Crown had been made by a small, unknown, up-&-coming studio with absolutely no background in animation or any form of entertainment? Would it be considered the best anime of all time simply because you consider the creators lack of resume? Is this really an important factor in simply enjoying what Guilty Crown has to offer? It's utterly unfair to let high expectations drive your criticism. I don't see folks rag-taggedly pulling apart the plot to Bleach (which is what, almost 400 episodes and has never made much sense), or questioning the chain of events that come to pass in other fantasy animes. These animes are simply judged by their entertainment value, their voice acting (and often not even), and their ability to keep you watching.

It's actually sort of hilarious to me that all the "fine wine" critics bust out of the fray just for Guilty Crown. Did Guilty Crown demand a different kind of judgment? One of higher demand and much higher expectation? Did the creators come out and say "We are aiming to make the best anime in all of history, so don't hold back!"? For not only the sound track and the art direction to be excellent, but the story to be perfectly concise with zero holes, and for the writers to not leave a loose end un-tied? What exactly did people expect from Guilty Crown?! It sounds like a lot of people thought it was going to be the greatest anime of all time in the history and future of anime.

Sure if you expected that...it fell short on numerous levels. As did many (all) other "great" animes of today. Does anybody even know what the "perfect" anime is? Don't be unfair to Guilty Crown is all I wish most people would understand. To me, this is actually a compliment to the series that it garnered such a high grade of criticism. It means it made people care that much to go that much deeper in to its analysis.

Don't get me wrong, for all the faults I think it has I'd still say Guilty Crown is better than average. And the director (Tetsuro Araki) went on to give us Attack on Titan this year, so hell yeah to that. If you're saying the series is fine if you just ignore everything that's wrong with it though, then you're getting into fandom territory.

Which is fine, but it's also highly relative.

/scratches head

Let me think for a minute.

We have narrative constructions, I guess I should call them conventions, that clue your audience in. If you've got a romantic comedy, that's what you advertise to get the attention of your target audience, and then you deliver on it. It's like you're a circus clown making balloon animals: you give little kids balloon animals.

You don't try to sell them life insurance.

I'm not constitutionally against anything happening in a story, really. The moment you think of something that shouldn't be done, you simultaneously think of five ways you could pull off doing it. "You can't go writing a light, fluffy script for a game with a gothic horror aesthetic... (well... actually, that could be pretty awesome...)" (Extra Credits).

There are good shows (Puella Magi Madoka Magica, for example) which subvert these conventions to incredible effect. But doing something like that increases the plot's complexity, and you still have to deliver the quality of story you promised. Plus they carefully target an audience who will respond well to what they have planned.

While a single plot hole, in this instance, can irrevocably pop your over-complicated balloon animal.


zipzo wrote:

I'm of the mind to believe that Guilty Crown wasn't prepared for the kind of harsh judgment it would received. Something leads me to believe that they couldn't comprehend the scrutinization they would endure.

This reflects something important to story telling: it's basically a conversation where one side has to predict everything that will be said in advance, and time their comments appropriately. If that comradery is missing, something is fundamentally wrong with the script. Guilty Crown prettied that up in development, but the core problem persisted.

Something else is the -meaning- of criticism like this. Why we do it at all. And how it's different from reviews.

I mean, the show is out. It is what it is, no amount of complaining will change it. Reviews help target audiences identify what's out there for them, and whether or not the reviewer thinks its any good. While criticism, as a separate entity, is aimed back at the industry. It's important to identify what a series does that holds it back, and decry it.

Just as it's important to identify what a series does right, and applaud it.

That feedback loop is imperative to the industry. It's what allows a director like Katsuyuki Motohiro to see a show like Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and to call up the writer (Gen Urobuchi) and create Psycho-Pass. Or for the director of Guilty Crown (Tetsuro Araki) to go on to adapt Attack on Titan (which looks to be 100% rock solid so far).

But anyway, this is the point I wanted to get to (promise):


zipzo wrote:

It's actually sort of hilarious to me that all the "fine wine" critics bust out of the fray just for Guilty Crown. Did Guilty Crown demand a different kind of judgment? One of higher demand and much higher expectation? Did the creators come out and say "We are aiming to make the best anime in all of history, so don't hold back!"? For not only the sound track and the art direction to be excellent, but the story to be perfectly concise with zero holes, and for the writers to not leave a loose end un-tied? What exactly did people expect from Guilty Crown?! It sounds like a lot of people thought it was going to be the greatest anime of all time in the history and future of anime.

Sure if you expected that...it fell short on numerous levels. As did many (all) other "great" animes of today. Does anybody even know what the "perfect" anime is? Don't be unfair to Guilty Crown is all I wish most people would understand. To me, this is actually a compliment to the series that it garnered such a high grade of criticism. It means it made people care that much to go that much deeper in to its analysis.


To quickly summarize what I said earlier,

1) You identify the target audience for your story.
2) You choose how you'll construct your story to appeal to that audience.
3) You pitch your story to them, waving them over for a chat.
4) You keep your target audience engaged in your "conversation" until you've said everything you mean to say.
5) You analyze the results to better inform how you approach your stories in the future.

Guilty Crown has a superb pitch in its first four minutes. They sell the art, the music, both their protagonists, you realize Shu is a loner, you realize Inori is involved in some shady antiestablishmentarianism, Shu is associated with the lighthouse structure, while Inori is running through tunnels and sewerways before jumping into the river.

You get the balance of power from Inori running from the military mecha. You get the promise of romantic tension between your two leads, while also realizing that Inori is living a double life. And you get, definitively, that Inori and Shu have very different lives in very different worlds. And that their realities are going to clash, promising us our story.

You're also given a sense of mystery and suspense by not knowing entirely what's going on, although you trust that Inori isn't doing something bad. Which casts a shadow on the government that lasts through Shu's pretty normal, everyday life in the rest of the episode. Before things start exploding. And of course you expect Inori and Shu to meet.

I also think Ayase showing up in an invisible mecha clues you in that you won't know why everything is happening right away, but that the show will fill you in on it before you're truly lost (aka: when Ayase's mecha drops its invisibility and she yells to Inori, identifying herself to the audience as a friend and confidante).

Most people don't consciously over-analyze something like this (I don't either while I'm watching - in the moment you're not usually supposed to), but we pick up on it subconsciously all the same. It goes back to using conventions to clue your audience in and direct them where the story will go. Like giving someone who's never been to your house directions.

So in the pitch we were promised four things:

1) Great art.
2) Great music.
3) A mystery (involving an anti-government group of some sort).
4) A character drama (primarily involving Inori and Shu).

It's not fair to criticize Guilty Crown for not being "the greatest anime of all time in the history and future of anime." But it is fair to criticize them based on what they promised. And in both cases, the mystery fell short due to choppy plot development and a naive approach to suspense, while several poorly executed character arcs undermined the drama.

In a nutshell the quality slipped, and they couldn't deliver entirely on what they'd promised. I don't know if the story was rushed, or what. But it fell short of what it reasonably could've been expected to be (kind of like Kotoura-San last season, unless it picked itself up after I quit watching - fantastic 10 minute pitch in their first episode, though).

Anyway, if I could borrow the rating system Jeremy Jahns made up (which I will, because I think it's clever)...

I'd put Guilty Crown right about here:


Not terrible by any means, but if you were watching it week to week while it aired, you had reason to dislike it. Whether or not that outweighed your personal interest is a point of personal opinion. I'm just saying the show was good, but had some glaring flaws that made it hard to enjoy. And that was distinctly unfortunate overall.
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Hi guys and gals, lets try to keep the trolling and flame baiting to a minimum okay? Thanks much! It is okay to like Guilty Crown and also okay not to like it too, so let's be a little more understanding of both sides.
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Posted 4/29/13

Karkarov wrote:

Hi guys and gals, lets try to keep the trolling and flame baiting to a minimum okay? Thanks much! It is okay to like Guilty Crown and also okay not to like it too, so let's be a little more understanding of both sides.




What's your opinion on it, Rov?
(Can I call you that? Your username is long and weird.)



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Posted 4/29/13


Karkarov think's Guilty Crown was pretty par. Mooooo.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13

Don't get me wrong, for all the faults I think it has I'd still say Guilty Crown is better than average. And the director (Tetsuro Araki) went on to give us Attack on Titan this year, so hell yeah to that. If you're saying the series is fine if you just ignore everything that's wrong with it though, then you're getting into fandom territory.

Which is fine, but it's also highly relative.

Misconception here.

I 100% accept what's wrong with Guilty Crown and still think the series is fine. Does that equal fandom? What is fandom? Doesn't something have to be good to even create a fandom? If you want to accuse me of blindly defending the series with absolutely no intelligent reasoning I suppose that's well within your rights...but then we don't really have anything to discuss, haha, since I guess I'd just be hooting and howling nonsense with no redeemable thought process to bother back and forthing over.

At this point you're urged to make a jab at my "tastes" I'm sure...but as humorous as you may find the statement (should you heavily disagree with my own self diagnosis), I'm quite picky about anime and the ones I choose to "fan" over. This point can really only devolve in to "Your taste sucks" and "No, your taste sucks", so it's best to skip this battle.


~The rest of your post~

What do you think of my words in the post before fireiceearth? I believe a lot of that can really be used as my response to the the rest of your post, truthfully. I definitely believe in the feedback loop. To me though, it's not important that every try is a famed success, because that's impossible. I'm not saying that people need to lay off Guilty Crown as an excuse so Guilty Crown can look better, I tend to see it more realistically, that every outing made in to the high budget anime territory we are moving forward at the very least instead of backward. Would you say Guilty Crown was a step forward for anime in general, or an utter step backward? I suppose there is going to be an opinionated answer to this type of question, but I certainly don't see Guilty Crown as a massive step backward, if at least because of its production values. We saw a potential in Guilty Crown that would rival modern life-action theatrical entertainment (my opinion of course!). A lot of anime doesn't even tug at the thought of that.

Another difficult thing to measure is whether Guilty Crown "delivered" in the themes you mentioned. I honestly can't say I demanded much more out of it aside from superficial wants (wanting certain characters to have said or done certain things for my own satisfaction). You felt that there was a ton of unfinished business, and that's obviously understandable, as I even outlined myself why I believe people are inclined to feel this way, what with the scrunched story line and characters that seemed to get cut short of their glory moments.

At the end of the day...the words I find to best fit my thoughts on Guilty Crown are that they shot for the stars and they made some mistakes...but the end result was easily watchable (and enjoyable). It wasn't a terrible failure.

I highly encourage you to read through this article here...

It's a pretty thought provoking take on Guilty Crown from the basis of thinking that the story is crap, and the characters were nonsense...but he loves it. It's an interesting piece that invokes all sorts of ideas such as author intent. While I'm not inclined to colorfully describe Guilty Crown in as absolutely dignity-less way as he does, I actually fundamentally agree with him to a certain point. That the show was a mad house of entertainment, and utterly succeeded at making you watch.


Hi guys and gals, lets try to keep the trolling and flame baiting to a minimum okay? Thanks much! It is okay to like Guilty Crown and also okay not to like it too, so let's be a little more understanding of both sides.

As the OP I have found most of the talk here to be quite tame and controlled, but thank you for your encouragement!
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