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Post Reply I give up, I *don't* get the Guilty Crown hate...*spoilers*
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Posted 4/29/13
I didn't read through your whole post but I got the jist of it. From what I read, I agree for the most part. Personally I absolutely loved Guilty Crown but I can see where all the criticism is coming from (mostly from the plot being full of holes). There were many flaws and some inconsistansies in the series but that by no means made it bad. I feel people over exaggerate on the mistakes in the show.

Shu in my opinion had the most development. Could it have been done better? Of course it could have but they still got the job done. I hear people complain that Shu was too much of a pussy to which I can kind of understand. But when you compare Shu to many other protagonists who started off with no self confidence, he is pretty normal. Shu wasn't introduced as a badass so I didn't expect him to be. I expected him to slowly gain self confidence so that he can come out on top by the end of the show. Shu went through trial and error for the most part. I was interested in how he would regain his self confidence whenever he managed to bitch out of a situation. However I kind of feel his change at the end was a little to quick, but I was none the less glad he finally decided what to do on his own.

Inori was another person I heard complaints about having no personality. I kind of get where people are coming from when they say that but come on, she was an artificial human to begin with who was raised in a "terrorist" group, she's not supposed to have much of a personality. If anything, I think her personality showed the most when she was singing. The lyrics used in the songs showed a much deeper meaning to the show as a whole in my opinion.

The ending in my opinion was better than average or at least okay. I don't really understand why people called the ending "shitty". Sure it was tragic that Inori died but it was kinda forshadowed in the ending credits of each episode. The lyrics in the song "Departures" ,I think it was, gave the feeling that someone was going to die in the end or at least that something was going to be "lost". I would have been surprised if they both lived since it would have felt like a "Disney" type of ending with everyone "living happily ever after" and in my opinion the series had a darker tone to it.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/29/13
I think I came across more antagonistic than I intended (which is also my rebuttal of authorial intent in a nutshell).

Anyway, let me work at that. To start:


zipzo wrote:

Doesn't something have to be good to even create a fandom?

Rocky Horror Picture Show says hi.


zipzo wrote:

If you want to accuse me of blindly defending the series with absolutely no intelligent reasoning I suppose that's well within your rights...but then we don't really have anything to discuss, haha, since I guess I'd just be hooting and howling nonsense with no redeemable thought process to bother back and forthing over.

At this point you're urged to make a jab at my "tastes" I'm sure...but as humorous as you may find the statement (should you heavily disagree with my own self diagnosis), I'm quite picky about anime and the ones I choose to "fan" over. This point can really only devolve in to "Your taste sucks" and "No, your taste sucks", so it's best to skip this battle.

This was not my intention at all.

It's true that everything exists on two scales: objective and subjective. Objectively good things get prestigious awards. Subjectively good things end up on your DVD shelves at home. Everyone weighs what they like and didn't like about something, and comes to a subjective conclusion about whether or not they want to be engaged by it.

That right is personal and sacrosanct, no one else has the right to criticize it.

Unless you're like, breaking laws, or something.

Then social construct theory comes into play but that's beside the point.

We both concluded that we subjectively liked Guilty Crown (you more than me, admittedly). I've tried to rewatch it a couple times but I keep getting bogged down in the first act. But anyway, my goal here was to present why I understand people who criticize it, and I attempted to explain that understanding so you'd get the rationale behind all the "hate."

If we're talking past each other then we should probably call it quits, agreed.


zipzo wrote:

At the end of the day...the words I find to best fit my thoughts on Guilty Crown are that they shot for the stars and they made some mistakes...but the end result was easily watchable (and enjoyable). It wasn't a terrible failure.

I also agree with this summary.


zipzo wrote:

I highly encourage you to read through this article here...

I read it, but I don't understand how it fits into your defense particularly well. You're saying Guilty Crown had flaws, but its inherent sincerity and effort won through in the end and made it something good. He's saying Guilty Crown is so self-referential, satirical, self-depreciating and campish that it's ironically hilarious. I'm missing the connection.

Everything you're praising he's depreciating.

In other words, you I like talking to, while him I want to throw off a bridge. (Metaphorically).

"Of course, there’s a fine line between camp and something that is plain simply bad. How do I know that this is camp? By the “ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical, and effeminate behaviour” of the main character. By the “banality, artifice, mediocrity, and ostentation so extreme as to have perversely sophisticated appeal” of the main cast. By the “frivolity, naïve middle-class pretentiousness, and ‘shocking’ excess” of the overall story. Most of all, the numerous bits of dry humor littered throughout the show. These are all definitions of camp that you can find on Wikipedia. My post above is an attempt to illustrate how Guilty Crown meets these standards."

It's an interesting premise, and it might be true. But I think Guilty Crown is better than that.

I also think that definition of camp qualifies a LOT of anime.

And that there's a distinct difference between weaving analogies into your story, and working with satire.

I'm more inclined to agree with a comment about that review:

"I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶u̶t̶h̶o̶r̶s̶, I feel as if you could pick any high-profile trainwreck and make the same argument as this article does for Guilty Crown. So far as I can tell, with these criteria anything sufficiently wretched and derivative created at the right time would become post-modernist commentary by virtue of being so singularly awful."

But... yeah. Not picking a fight! Just trying to understand points of view. If I'm too blunt on occasion I apologize.

Edit:

My bad! You did explain it.


zipzo wrote:

It's an interesting piece that invokes all sorts of ideas such as author intent. While I'm not inclined to colorfully describe Guilty Crown in as absolutely dignity-less way as he does, I actually fundamentally agree with him to a certain point. That the show was a mad house of entertainment, and utterly succeeded at making you watch.

Gotcha.

I should probably go to sleep soon, heh.
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Posted 4/29/13

EspeoangeTieler wrote:


Kikusui10 wrote:

The episode that was released with the blu ray was awesome. Its about the first guy with the kings hand, but he can only use it on one person, every other gets the apocalypse virus. Anyways that episode was awesome, wish they would have continued the story on that. He was named Scrooge if i remember right.


dude thats a vn if you wanna actually follow the story

also on topic haters gonna hate some ppl jsut hate things its how the world works im sure i hate some of the anime they consider to be amazing. different strokes for different folks


Oh sweet, i will do that. Just hope i find it in english.
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Posted 4/29/13 , edited 4/30/13
I should have declared more before linking to that article, admittedly.

I didn't mean to imply that our views of the show are one and the same by linking it. Just that the show is like-able even from the point of view of a watcher who found themselves hating the story and the characters, and marching on purely for its entertainment value (which I praise as a point of value to Guilty Crown, because let's face it, it's kinda entertaining).

So in that sense, our views are somewhat similar, because the supposed bad characterization and plot direction (according to the vocal ones) keep neither me, nor even someone who agrees with those assertions from enjoying the show. In an essence, he enjoyed the show for what he believed it was or was meant to be. There's a huge interpretative gap here, of course, because while I do see parts that ooze campy and purposely fun just to wink past the 4th wall, as I said earlier I don't pants Guilty Crown for nearly as much of its dignity as the author of that article does (even though he admits he likes it, in the end).

So we have different specific views on the interpretation of the events in the anime, the characters and what not, but overall our general inclination is to look at Guilty Crown as great entertainment. How we reached that conclusion in somewhat different ways is worthy of mention too, because it means that you don't need to see the show in my own specific way only to reach the conclusions we did.

Make sense? We may have different observations and ideas on the show on an analytical level, almost completely contrary in nature some of them, but we both enjoyed it for the same reason. So while he depreciates some parts I admire, we still arrive to the same opinion that it was a good watch. I don't know if I'm explaining it properly, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself.

While I don't pin Guilty Crown for being as heavily weighted with post-modernist theorem as the writer there, I can almost whole-heartedly agree with some of the sentiment. Let's take the back-to-back that Shu and Ayase give after taking out the endlave for an extreme example. It's cheesy. Nobody would ever do it. It's cliche. It's something that makes you go "Oh god, lulz". But? It's cool. The action scene that just transpired (Guilty Crowns major strength was action scenes) had you at the edge of your seat, and they threw you a little wink. A proverbial "shout out", that while corny, makes for an either hilarious end scene or an absolutely cool end scene. That's entertaining! It's certainly not boring or annoying, nor can I see how it can be construed as such. It is moments like this one in particular that I do agree with the writer in that Guilty Crown used camp to its advantage (in some cases unintentional dismay with many viewers, admittedly). It didn't just use it, it wielded like a giant void sword! When it happened, I said out loud, not even kidding "Wow, they are really doing that? Who does that?". Of course I did. We all did or at least thought it. That didn't soil the scene for me though. Far from it. I thought it was awesome. I don't think that makes me easily entertained. What is the real definition of being "easily" entertained, really though?

I didn't intend to sound defensive in my first paragraph. Simply devising that personal taste obviously plays a huge part in the discussion of whether something is good or bad, so it's always good to point out the caution tape on the red flag routes of conversation that lead to...you know, the basic flame-fest that this thread has, pleasantly, not turned to yet. Hope it keeps up!
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Posted 4/30/13

Kikusui10 wrote:


EspeoangeTieler wrote:


Kikusui10 wrote:

The episode that was released with the blu ray was awesome. Its about the first guy with the kings hand, but he can only use it on one person, every other gets the apocalypse virus. Anyways that episode was awesome, wish they would have continued the story on that. He was named Scrooge if i remember right.


dude thats a vn if you wanna actually follow the story

also on topic haters gonna hate some ppl jsut hate things its how the world works im sure i hate some of the anime they consider to be amazing. different strokes for different folks


Oh sweet, i will do that. Just hope i find it in english.


if you jsut wanna know the story and dont really care to actually "play it" im pretty sure you an find it on youtube
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Posted 4/30/13
I happen to be a fan of the anime myself but I too can see why it's criticized. I think Insomnist nailed the points( I also read that article by EMinor XD but I think his criticism was directed more toward the writers than the anime itself) I wanted to touch on regarding the intro to the first episode that painted an image appearing to be different compared to what the anime became after. However, even here in the intro my question was why Inori was wearing her stage outfit. I think one of the main reasons the writers had trouble dealing with the storyline was because the anime had a few elements that made it difficult to work with everything else. Inori was one of these elements and this is mostly because she had two identities. In one life she was a singer for Egoist and in the other she was working with a terrorist organization called the undertakers. Right here, it brings into question how both identities can be used in the storyline. The way the anime played out, Inori from the Undertakers was clearly dominant over her identity as a singer and we barely knew this side of Inori.

I think one of the main factors that caused many problems in the plot was the lack of effort in defining characters and elements that would take part in the anime's world (Da'at comes to mind). I.e critics see Shu's inconsistent personality and the lack of character in Inori (up until 18 when we finally see what should've been there since ep 1) as one of the main weaknesses in the anime and one of the things the anime lacked to carry the story. Shu and his family's background was also missing in the storyline and I think Shu's desire to do more in Japan's current situation was something his father believed as well (hence the development of the void genome in an effort to stop the virus from spreading). Characters like Daryl and Arisa appeared to share the same problem and this again came from background that didn't completely materialize in the storyline. As for other ideas, the mechanics behind the virus(i.e genomic resonance) were barely explained and explanations sometimes deviated too far from scifi and more into science fantasy. What is the void genome? Or better yet, how can voids change if they came from your DNA? Do our changes in personality come from changes in genetic material? This could go into the more controversial side of genetics of nature vs nurture but those would be my quirks on the ideas behind the void concept. Other ideas like the red string of fate and the more creative implementation of the forget me not(more on the minor side but creative nonetheless) was also missing in the buildup of the relationship between the leads.
Overall, I think what the anime lacked was effort from the staff to work toward a common goal (a single vision was missing) but I enjoyed the anime all the same :).
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Posted 4/30/13
I thoroughly enjoyed guilty crown, I will say I got lost at parts but in the end it was a very entertaining show and inori is probably one of my favorite female protagonists.
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Posted 4/30/13 , edited 4/30/13

secret4 wrote:

I happen to be a fan of the anime myself but I too can see why it's criticized. I think Insomnist nailed the points( I also read that article by EMinor XD but I think his criticism was directed more toward the writers than the anime itself) I wanted to touch on regarding the intro to the first episode that painted an image appearing to be different compared to what the anime became after. However, even here in the intro my question was why Inori was wearing her stage outfit. I think one of the main reasons the writers had trouble dealing with the storyline was because the anime had a few elements that made it difficult to work with everything else. Inori was one of these elements and this is mostly because she had two identities. In one life she was a singer for Egoist and in the other she was working with a terrorist organization called the undertakers. Right here, it brings into question how both identities can be used in the storyline. The way the anime played out, Inori from the Undertakers was clearly dominant over her identity as a singer and we barely knew this side of Inori.

I'm most inclined to think that we aren't given a major serving of those details because they were wholly unnecessary. Overall Inori's facade as a singer is pretty unimportant as a story driver, and quite comfortable as a background mini-detail. This sort of plays in to my point of people judging a piece of art simply because it doesn't have something they merely think would make it better. I'm making a slight comparison to the interpretation of a painting. This is an incredibly open-interpretive form of art so let's take a popular work that is undeniably etched as being an "amazing" piece in history. The starry night painting by Van Gogh. You look at it.



Me personally, it's a drab and boring painting using an interesting swirly type of artistry. Does this mean I can deny this painting the mark and/or impact in made on the art world? Of course I can't. It's one of the most famous paintings of all time. This doesn't mean to say that I'm presenting Guilty Crown as one of the greatest anime of all time (I've even jokingly allured to how silly it is to expect it to be such), but to draw judgment on an anime because it lacked something that you wanted is naive. We should be drawing judgment because it lacked something that was required or needed for it to be effective at what it set out to do. Now this begs the question...what does a good anime need for it to be good? This could be an incredibly deep conversation with many differing opinions, maybe even overly complex.


I think one of the main factors that caused many problems in the plot was the lack of effort in defining characters and elements that would take part in the anime's world (Da'at comes to mind). I.e critics see Shu's inconsistent personality and the lack of character in Inori (up until 18 when we finally see what should've been there since ep 1) as one of the main weaknesses in the anime and one of the things the anime lacked to carry the story. Shu and his family's background was also missing in the storyline and I think Shu's desire to do more in Japan's current situation was something his father believed as well (hence the development of the void genome in an effort to stop the virus from spreading). Characters like Daryl and Arisa appeared to share the same problem and this again came from background that didn't completely materialize in the storyline. As for other ideas, the mechanics behind the virus(i.e genomic resonance) were barely explained and explanations sometimes deviated too far from scifi and more into science fantasy. What is the void genome? Or better yet, how can voids change if they came from your DNA? Do our changes in personality come from changes in genetic material? This could go into the more controversial side of genetics of nature vs nurture but those would be my quirks on the ideas behind the void concept. Other ideas like the red string of fate and the more creative implementation of the forget me not(more on the minor side but creative nonetheless) was also missing in the buildup of the relationship between the leads.

Overall, I think what the anime lacked was effort from the staff to work toward a common goal (a single vision was missing) but I enjoyed the anime all the same :).

Can't really disagree with your first paragraph, but the last line I'm rigidly opposed. To even make that assertion you'd have to know what their goal was in the first place. A safe bet is they were aiming to create something entertaining that would make people buy the blu-rays so they could draw in more money than it took to make it (a lot of money), and they generally succeeded in that goal long ago, despite the harsh reception. An incredibly wary guess is that they were aiming to create something thought provoking and intuitive, where everything lines up and the series displays its story like a poetic and perfect weave. I also find this highly unlikely. Although, I don't share in your sentiment towards the things you specifically mentioned I generally agree with the idea that they didn't finish their own business in some aspects of the show. It's one thing to demand something be apparent in a painting, a'la my first paragraph, it's another to draw half of a house and expect people to think "Oh, well, it was meant to be full house, we all know that, so it's ok that he only drew half of it". The series did this with some of the important side characters, and it left people feeling like they got a bit of an incomplete painting of some of the characters. Some of your points though are simply a result of not paying enough attention on your own. They explained in the show about how voids can change. To bother making it as needlessly complicated as you...seemingly desire it to be in my opinion wouldn't have been positive for the show...again : this is anime. It doesn't have to make complete sense from a realistic point of view. Making a barrier between science fiction and science fantasy when we're discussing anime is silly, they are nearly one and the same in this particular show.
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Posted 4/30/13
i'll admit it, I was subjected to the inflated hype and found this series in poor taste.

after a couple months past I decided to watch this again w/ a different point of view this time around and I've corrected myself by saying it's decent.

likes:pretty visuals , plot, climaxes, character development.

dislikes:timing, plot, characters.
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Guilty Crown was alright but I felt it had no real indentity. Like for example Gurren Lagann. Gurren Lagann has a very strong beginning and it never sways from the original premise.

Gurren Lagann is this hyper-active Mecha anime that has a very simple but clever theme to it. The main cast is always rising. First they're underground then they're on surface ground. After a certain tragedy happens they fall into the sea which highlights them still mourning but after that they go to the sky and then years later they're in space and that's where It ends as simple as as that.

But GC is all over the place. I mean, what does this anime want to be? First it wants to be like Code Geass but then halfway through It suddenly becomes this survival-esque anime. And by the end nothing stuck with me. I can't remember any character aside from Shu, Inori Gai and Hare. The only thing I genuinly loved about guilty crown is the soundtrack.
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Posted 6/19/13
just because you stick feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken, if only Guilty Crown had known this
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Posted 6/19/13

Tactics15 wrote:

Guilty Crown was alright but I felt it had no real indentity. Like for example Gurren Lagann. Gurren Lagann has a very strong beginning and it never sways from the original premise.

Gurren Lagann is this hyper-active Mecha anime that has a very simple but clever theme to it. The main cast is always rising. First they're underground then they're on surface ground. After a certain tragedy happens they fall into the sea which highlights them still mourning but after that they go to the sky and then years later they're in space and that's where It ends as simple as as that.

But GC is all over the place. I mean, what does this anime want to be? First it wants to be like Code Geass but then halfway through It suddenly becomes this survival-esque anime. And by the end nothing stuck with me. I can't remember any character aside from Shu, Inori Gai and Hare. The only thing I genuinly loved about guilty crown is the soundtrack.


Wow if this isn't a thread necro I don't know what is! However I'm happy to oblige anyway.

I think comparing anything to Gurren Lagann is simply inviting trouble. That anime is meant to be exaggerated on purpose, and late in the game things become so utterly over the top that you threw your brain away a long time beforehand. If you were to try and stack up GL to GC on the specific basis of plot I'm quite sure that a detailed analysis would yield little difference in sensibility or authenticity (as concepts).

The characters you remember generally are the only characters you really need to (or the show tried to make you) remember...sounds like it worked out.
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Posted 6/24/13 , edited 6/24/13

DeckardXLeah wrote:
No, I think at the time they had a new/part time musician joining their band or something and no they are not awesome. They SUCK ass they are a rip off of older bands.
Well no one knows these older bands, so wouldn't it be promotion for them
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Posted 6/24/13


Actually, Zipzo, reading all of this convinced me to give Guilty Crown a try (at least once I get through Chaos;HEAd).
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Posted 6/24/13 , edited 6/24/13
...
so... some of the reason's people dis-like the anime... are the same reason's why I like it.
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