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Post Reply I give up, I *don't* get the Guilty Crown hate...*spoilers*
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13
For the record, Guilty Crown is either a parody or a deconstruction (depending on how you take it) so "copying" other anime from its genre was kind of the idea... in so far as borrowing key elements and twisting their purposes.

And either way I don't think Guilty Crown borrowed any more from Code Geass than Code Geass borrowed from Death Note or Neon Genesis Evangelion. Or more than Valvrave the Liberator is borrowing from Guilty Crown.

Anyway, having better paced character development and a more balanced plot definitely could've made this amazing.

But as it stands it's still fun and fairly above average.
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Posted 6/26/13
It's pretty to look at and has some fantastic music, but I can't rate it above 6/10. It's just above average, imo.
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Posted 6/26/13

deadpanditto wrote:

It's pretty to look at and has some fantastic music, but I can't rate it above 6/10. It's just above average, imo.


Basically the only thing I liked about it was the music. Visuals were pretty, but with no substance to back it up it doesn't really matter to me.
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Posted 6/26/13
I like the character.

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Posted 6/26/13

tommythecat wrote:


deadpanditto wrote:

It's pretty to look at and has some fantastic music, but I can't rate it above 6/10. It's just above average, imo.


Basically the only thing I liked about it was the music. Visuals were pretty, but with no substance to back it up it doesn't really matter to me.


No arguments about the lack of substance. It helps not to think about the random and silly story elements. But, despite those problems--and Shu being one of the most annoying characters ever created--I still watched the whole thing. I was entertained enough not to drop it. Generally, I'll drop shows 5/10 and below. I've got better things to do than watch something that's merely average; or worse.
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Posted 6/26/13
found GC fun to watch personally but I can't see it anymore than a complicated story of incest romance
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13

tommythecat wrote:


deadpanditto wrote:

It's pretty to look at and has some fantastic music, but I can't rate it above 6/10. It's just above average, imo.


Basically the only thing I liked about it was the music. Visuals were pretty, but with no substance to back it up it doesn't really matter to me.


To each their own, substance is sort of a strange word.

I hack on Gargantia all day but I won't say it lacks substance. It actually has a surplus of substance to which makes it easier to criticize from my point of view...but let's talk about this word "substance".

What is substance? Copy pasted directly from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/substance...

sub·stance [suhb-stuhns]
noun
1. that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
2. a species of matter of definite chemical composition: a chalky substance.
3. controlled substance.
4. the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, etc.
5. the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.

I tried a few other sources like Oxford and much of my research yielded extremely synonymous results with this, which was easier to paste without too much self editing. I've bolded the most relate-able definition.

Essentially, substance in the context which you used it is material or subject matter in a show that means something to you or is effective on a personal level to you in allowing you to understand or personally care about what it is the show is trying to convey, which is actually quite terrible grounds to state that it lacks substance, because substance is simply the presence at all of an idea or collection of ideas used to tell a story or present information.

In conclusion, you think it lacks "substance" because you disliked the characters and the story. This is not only improper word usage but you've failed to objectively put any nail in Guilty Crown's coffin.

Guilty Crown has substance in heaps and bounds, really almost every single anime ever made does on a technical level. You might not always like that substance but them's the breaks, you know? In the end, defending Guilty Crown is really just a battle of getting people to ease up off its back, not love the show, of which I'm completely geared and ready to always do because of the enjoyment the show provided me.

Here's a question...let's pretend for a second that I am not a monkey, and that I do have taste in what I watch. That I can spot great (and bad) character building and I know when and where to criticize, when and where to praise. A good eye for good romance, a keen love for well performed action scenes. Just an all around great critic with a level head. I like Guilty Crown. What do you postulate? Your first assumption is likely "You have shit taste, Zipzo, you angry little forum troll"...but let's be real for a second. What do you think is attractive about Guilty Crown that might have someone like me be fond of the series?

Once you've pointed out the reasons you believe it's possible for me to like the show...ask yourself if it's possible that the qualities you named can make a show good. Make any average viewer a fan. Tell me why I like Guilty Crown! Clearly none of you are mind readers, and that's not what I'm asking you to do, I'm just asking you to theorize and tell me if you believe that a show can be good because of the things you think up.

Shu also goes down as one of my favorite anime hero characters. Can you reason that without resorting to insulting my taste? I challenge thee.
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19 / M / Ljubljana SI, EU
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Posted 6/26/13
For me GC is in top in my anime list. I enjoyed it. It really interesting. Also I'm fan of supercell and love their songs. They make this anime even better. I still sometimes listen those songs. Maybe are some people just envious and don't want to accept that it's a great anime but that's only my opinion that really does not matter. More important is that I enjoyed the anime
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Posted 6/26/13

zipzo wrote:

What is substance?
*snip*
Essentially, substance in the context which you used it is material or subject matter in a show that means something to you or is effective on a personal level to you in allowing you to understand or personally care about what it is the show is trying to convey, which is actually quite terrible grounds to state that it lacks substance, because substance is simply the presence at all of an idea or collection of ideas used to tell a story or present information.

In conclusion, you think it lacks "substance" because you disliked the characters and the story. This is not only improper word usage but you've failed to objectively put any nail in Guilty Crown's coffin.


Nope. It's clear you don't know what we mean by "substance". I won't speak for tommythecat, but I suspect he's thinking the same thing as I am. What do I mean by "substance"? I mean what is commonly referred to in the expression "style vs substance". I'd say "substance" is quality storytelling. In other words, how well did it tell its story?

Here are a few quotes from your original post:

The plot is a bit convoluted. This is certainly not deniable. The show also suffers from the age-old "memory-heavy" fillers weighted on to the last few episodes in order to properly dictate the back story, and sometimes it can feel very contrived if we're just learning a bunch of information we wish we could have discerned for ourselves over the course of the series, especially with as much random foreshadowing as GC does.


We are given enough pieces of the story to properly understand what happened, and how it all came together. Sure, some of it is tough to swallow and waaaaay out there but...I believe to say the story doesn't make sense at all is false.


I will talk about what I feel is Guilty Crown's true flaw.

It bites off more than it can completely chew by the end of the series. It dips its foot in to so many different ideas, side-stories, and character intrigue away from Shu, and never gives itself time to flesh them out. This goes Inori especially.


Guilty Crown takes the huge undertaking of making you invest in a smorgasbord of character intricacies and relationships, and to its dismay ends up only delivering in one. Shu x Inori


So, it's obvious you are well aware that GC has serious storytelling problems. "Substance" can be viewed as a scale. So, when we say GC lacks substance, we mean the story has some serious problems. No one said GC is devoid of substance or that it is inane.

You've also said this:

It doesn't take a high grade kind of taste in entertainment to simply sit back and enjoy the ride Guilty Crown gives you. Though you're forced to accept a few story details that you might find hard to swallow, and you may not ever get to hear your favorite side character say whatever it is you were hoping they might say, from start to finish it's a wild ride. That's why you finished watching it. If you didn't...well then you have no opinion anyway, right? As entertainment, I propose that Guilty Crown fantastically succeeded in its effort to be a wam-bam fantastical adventure full of explosions and emotion.


All in all, the flaws of Guilty Crown (which I've named many, if you didn't read this and you were searching for the TLDR) are not even near close enough to devoid it of its entertainment value. Which is the entire point, in my opinion.


My take on your statements is that you enjoyed the "style" or the entertainment value of GC so much, the "substance" or quality of its storytelling didn't matter (or didn't matter as much).

I found GC entertaining, but not enough to outweigh its flaws. Clearly you feel a similar way regarding Gargantia. The fact that I point out flaws does not mean that I hate the show, nor does it mean your taste sucks. No one, to my knowledge, has said your taste sucks. It's obvious, however, that your taste is different from a number of us. That's fine. I'm glad you enjoy the show. But there is no reason why the rest of us have to like what you like.
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13

zipzo wrote:


tommythecat wrote:


deadpanditto wrote:

It's pretty to look at and has some fantastic music, but I can't rate it above 6/10. It's just above average, imo.


Basically the only thing I liked about it was the music. Visuals were pretty, but with no substance to back it up it doesn't really matter to me.


To each their own, substance is sort of a strange word.

I hack on Gargantia all day but I won't say it lacks substance. It actually has a surplus of substance to which makes it easier to criticize from my point of view...but let's talk about this word "substance".

What is substance? Copy pasted directly from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/substance...

sub·stance [suhb-stuhns]
noun
1. that of which a thing consists; physical matter or material: form and substance.
2. a species of matter of definite chemical composition: a chalky substance.
3. controlled substance.
4. the subject matter of thought, discourse, study, etc.
5. the actual matter of a thing, as opposed to the appearance or shadow; reality.

I tried a few other sources like Oxford and much of my research yielded extremely synonymous results with this, which was easier to paste without too much self editing. I've bolded the most relate-able definition.

Essentially, substance in the context which you used it is material or subject matter in a show that means something to you or is effective on a personal level to you in allowing you to understand or personally care about what it is the show is trying to convey, which is actually quite terrible grounds to state that it lacks substance, because substance is simply the presence at all of an idea or collection of ideas used to tell a story or present information.

In conclusion, you think it lacks "substance" because you disliked the characters and the story. This is not only improper word usage but you've failed to objectively put any nail in Guilty Crown's coffin.

Guilty Crown has substance in heaps and bounds, really almost every single anime ever made does on a technical level. You might not always like that substance but them's the breaks, you know? In the end, defending Guilty Crown is really just a battle of getting people to ease up off its back, not love the show, of which I'm completely geared and ready to always do because of the enjoyment the show provided me.

Here's a question...let's pretend for a second that I am not a monkey, and that I do have taste in what I watch. That I can spot great (and bad) character building and I know when and where to criticize, when and where to praise. A good eye for good romance, a keen love for well performed action scenes. Just an all around great critic with a level head. I like Guilty Crown. What do you postulate? Your first assumption is likely "You have shit taste, Zipzo, you angry little forum troll"...but let's be real for a second. What do you think is attractive about Guilty Crown that might have someone like me be fond of the series?

Once you've pointed out the reasons you believe it's possible for me to like the show...ask yourself if it's possible that the qualities you named can make a show good. Make any average viewer a fan. Tell me why I like Guilty Crown! Clearly none of you are mind readers, and that's not what I'm asking you to do, I'm just asking you to theorize and tell me if you believe that a show can be good because of the things you think up.

Shu also goes down as one of my favorite anime hero characters. Can you reason that without resorting to insulting my taste? I challenge thee.

if they tell you that you have bad taste for liking guilty crown it just means that they are the ones who truly have bad taste ;)

also i dont think the story was lacking at all obviously you could add more but you could do that with any anime or any form of story telling at all
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13

deadpanditto wrote:

"substance" is quality storytelling. In other words, how well did it tell its story?


It absolutely is not!

Substance isn't an adjective nor can it flexibly be charged or loaded with one. To not have substance would mean the story either isn't there completely or makes no literal sense at all, neither of which are true in Guilty Crown's case (but of course you're free to argue the latter, as many like to exaggerate).

Also, yes, I do submit to certain criticisms of Guilty Crown, but it still doesn't take from my original point. I may have forgone story a little bit in favor of my enjoyment of the show, this is true, but in the end I still like the show. It's all a means to my ultimate positive conclusion that the anime is great because it did what it set out to do which is what Gargantia is not doing.

I don't apply the same weighted judgment to every single show of every single genre because on an obtuse level that's like saying Kimi ni Todoke has terrible action sequences. This is an extremely one-sided example, but it's a similar concept here. While you're fully within your right to say Guilty Crown has a bad story, it's kind of like telling a horse to bark, or criticizing an Albino's lack of pigment.
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13
While we're here, was there ever an explanation given for Yu, "The Envoy of the Daath"?

And the Daath, for that matter?



^ That kid. One of my biggest gripes was all the crazy stuff that came out of episode 12 that I don't remember ever being explained. Although apparently Yu is in a flashback I don't remember seeing, and I haven't seen the Guilty Crown OVA.

Just curious. His wiki page is exceptionally sparse.

I really want to rewatch this show to fill in the blanks of what I remember, but I never get past the first few episodes.


Edit:

I'd also like to expand on my earlier thoughts slightly, but I'm not sure how to do it with respect to a non-interactive medium. Last year Extra Credits did a video on a paper called Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics: A Formal Approach to Game Design and Game Research. What I want to pull from this are the Core Aesthetics of gameplay:

1. Sensation
Game as sense-pleasure

2. Fantasy
Game as make-believe

3. Narrative
Game as drama

4. Challenge
Game as obstacle course
5. Fellowship
Game as social framework

6. Discovery
Game as new territory

7. Expression
Game as self-discovery

8. Abnegation
Game as pastime

Points #5 and #7 don't directly apply to non-interactive media, but this is enough to get my point across. In the video they talk about how games will be designed around "two, three... maybe four" of these core aesthetics. They will likely contain elements from most if not all of them, but it's generally obvious which ones are actually fundamental.

Tangentially: I can expect people to reject #4 as well if I've put you in a gaming mindset, but anime can still challenge us morally (as we've seen following the 10th episode of Valvrave the Liberator), mentally (either of Serial Experiments Lain or Kara no Kyoukai) and emotionally (Grave of the Fireflies, Anohana, Clannad, etc.).

Anyway, I thought of this with respect to Guilty Crown because it owned the hell out of #1: Sensation: Game [or Anime] as sense-pleasure. The fidelity of the animation and design as well as the superb original score were all exceptionally rewarding to experience. Points #3 and #6 were stumbling blocks, unfortunately, which compromised #8.

In any case, the idea that it's alright to identify a core strength of a show and focus on experiencing it almost exclusively through that one facet appeals to me, and I think that might be what zipzo is getting at here? A lot of the time I think people despise shows because they prefer different facets (Naruto is quite good at #2 and #8, for example).

Another example is Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, which I think does quite well at #2 and #8, with #1 as an honorable mention. But since many viewers (myself included) were prepped to examine it through facets #3 and #4, things have gone a little bit south because our expectations didn't line up with the core strengths of the show.

Anyway, just a late afternoon ramble.

I'd like a metric like this to apply to anime in general but it'd require some tweaks.
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Posted 6/26/13


Wow. Your post is really prettyful. "LAWL"
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Posted 6/26/13 , edited 6/26/13

zendude wrote:

Wow. Your post is really prettyful. "LAWL"

Yu's pose was imperative for proper feng shui, and the red of the apple dictated much of the later color coordination. The green checkmarks were also an essential facility to add a sense of emotional warmth to the text.
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Posted 6/26/13

Insomnist wrote:


zendude wrote:

Wow. Your post is really prettyful. "LAWL"

Yu's pose was imperative for proper feng shui, and the red of the apple dictated much of the later color coordination. The green checkmarks were also an essential facility to add a sense of emotional warmth to the text.


You went deeper there than necessary man. "LAWL"

If I'm motivated enough, I'll just copy pasta your coding styles. "LAWL"

Maybe I should see why there is the hate on this show by watching it. Then again, I try to avoid reading extraneous commenting. Oh the irony of me being on too activity on Anime forums. "LAWL"
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