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Post Reply I give up, I *don't* get the Guilty Crown hate...*spoilers*
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Posted 6/26/13

zendude wrote:

You went deeper there than necessary man. "LAWL"

If I'm motivated enough, I'll just copy pasta your coding styles. "LAWL"

Maybe I should see why there is the hate on this show by watching it. Then again, I try to avoid reading extraneous commenting. Oh the irony of me being on too activity on Anime forums. "LAWL"

I eventually like to find decent formatting methods if I spend any amount of time on a forum; it's what I get for maintaining a guide on the World of Warcraft forums for a year, I was determined to make that thing logically comprehensible.

Anyway. Side note. Now to go make something edible for dinner.
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Posted 6/27/13


You're post was very pretty and interesting to read.



Thanks for doing what I am far too lazy to do. You appear to have pretty much the same feelings as I do about it.
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Posted 6/28/13
I honestly can't believe people are still going on about this. I'll give my two cents on GC.

Alright. I've seen the anime already, know the story sucked (I can already see defenders coming my way when I say this), but despite its problems I genuinely liked the show enough to buy it when it comes out here in this region. I won't do it because it was good but because I don't like good ideas going to waste and I like to take anime apart even if they're broken.

That said, people have to get real here. The plot was a mess for the most part and most characters never went beyond the first dimension. Characters like Shu got the most development but even that didn't really come out nicely if one takes conventional storytelling methods into consideration. Those that say it lacked substance likely mean the storytelling was bad, period. The anime has substance in abundance everywhere else, it just didn't deliver it in story. One can really only argue that Guilty Crown is little more than mindless fun. I've seen plenty other anime that fit this bill like high school of the dead (though it's ecchi and this is definitely something I didn't want to see with Guilty Crown. I generally don't go around bashing potentially good anime as bad as they came out (I'm looking at you too SAO) so if people liked these shows for whatever reason, fine.

Guilty Crown was clearly a clusterpotato from the very first episode. Poor characterization and WTF logic. Mind you, it was still salvageable at this point and any mistakes that came out of this episode could have been fixed pretty easily. Logic failed the moment I saw the chase scene with Inori. Realism did not apply and mistakes that were avoidable were made for whatever reason :blink:. If defenders want to go against what I said with realism, fine. However, the problem with Guilty Crown went beyond nonchalant reasoning. The anime's world had no bounds. Anything goes in Guilty Crown. The sixth episode during the operation to take out the satellite comes to mind. Why IN HELL did GHQ make the control room section part of the targeting range? Perhaps the writers knew how retarded this was, perhaps it was just to use this as a means to get Shu back in school for pointless school drama with the excuse of using him as a DECOY? The void fusions that came out of nowhere and were just deus ex machina? See, it's writing like this that made people say Guilty Crown's story was silly. Gai made a complete 360 degree turn in character by the second season and the plot was ruined by this point. Stuffing instrumentality by the last episode out of nowhere only solidified my belief that these storytellers had not idea what they were doing at this point and made me wonder if they knew what they were doing since the first episode. However, one thing struck me as interesting when I saw Guilty Crown. I noticed that as the plot unfolded, the story was somehow (how should I put this) evolving as it went on. You started seeing some crazy when you saw things pop out of nowhere like how Inori was able to incapacitate Shu with her finger the way Yuu did to Shuichiro in ep 12 or the way Inori turned into deathstrike by episode 18. In fact, I'd say episodes 11 and 12 were examples of how disjointed the plot was and how there were concepts in the anime that were soooooooooooooo far apart when executed it made them look like they came out of nowhere.

For my closing statements fail logic and reasoning aside, the plot in Guilty Crown clearly lacked direction in its first season and was very episodic. You have heartfelt moments in certain episodes that make you wonder where it all went wrong. The only decent episode was the ninth episode. After that it goes downhill so fast, it's unreal. Second season started out okay but then quickly worsened with Gai's resurrection and any hope for a solid second season was destroyed. From a completely critical point of view, all I asked when I finished the anime was what these guys were smoking. I guess it was some pretty good stuff.

Oh yeah, and for those that don't know the envoy of daath is Yuu. Anime is an example of cool concept with awful execution.

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Posted 6/28/13 , edited 6/28/13
What's interesting is this show still manages to draw me in when it's not being boring. I rewatched 11-12 the other day and it was almost like TTGL; there's no hope to apply logic to any of it but I was still fully invested within minutes.

It's unfortunate the plot was too choppy for them to just run with that, it would've been amazing.

And I know Yu is the Envoy of the Daath; but that doesn't help when the Daath aren't exactly explained either.

The rock that infected Mana was a meteorite, so maybe they're aliens. /shrugs
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Posted 6/28/13

Insomnist wrote:

What's interesting is this show still manages to draw me in when it's not being boring. I rewatched 11-12 the other day and it was almost like TTGL; there's no hope to apply logic to any of it but I was still fully invested within minutes.

It's unfortunate the plot was too choppy for them to just run with that, it would've been amazing.

And I know Yu is the Envoy of the Daath; but that doesn't help when the Daath aren't exactly explained either.

The rock that infected Mana was a meteorite, so maybe they're aliens. /shrugs


Yeah, don't get me started on Daath. ;)
Here's my only explanation: the producers just felt the show needed some Death Metal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A5%C3%A5th

The single most disappointing thing for me? Why couldn't we have more of bad-ass Inori?
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Posted 6/28/13 , edited 6/28/13
Crazy Mahou Shoujo Inori-san was just weird.

Awesome as hell, but it was such a strange and unexpected development that it totally broke immersion.


deadpanditto wrote:

Yeah, don't get me started on Daath. ;)

Daath is definitely a reference to the Da'at in the Hebrew Kabbalah, because there's no way they weren't going to slip in a Neon Genesis Evangelion reference. In the Sephirot it stands for unification and knowledge/intellect (simplistically).

I should get around to studying Jewish mythology at some point, it's profoundly interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da'at_(Kabbalah)

But the whole thing is still more or less inexplicably enigmatic in Guilty Crown.
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Posted 6/28/13

Insomnist wrote:

Crazy Mahou Shoujo Inori-san was just weird.

Awesome as hell, but it was such a strange and unexpected development that it totally broke immersion.


deadpanditto wrote:

Yeah, don't get me started on Daath. ;)

Daath is definitely a reference to the Da'at in the Hebrew Kabbalah, because there's no way they weren't going to slip in a Neon Genesis Evangelion reference. In the Sephirot it stands for unification and knowledge/intellect (simplistically).

I should get around to studying Jewish mythology at some point, it's profoundly interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da'at_(Kabbalah)

But the whole thing is still more or less inexplicably enigmatic in Guilty Crown.


They are both unexpected for the same reason: lack of setup or foreshadowing. I see this failure all the time. It really is a sign that the writer is either rushed, or isn't very experienced. And it is frustrating because it is so easily correctable.

In fact, foreshadowing is one of the best tools a writer has. It doesn't take much. A "subtle" mention of a key point early in the show, sets the stage for introducing something later on. There's the famous quote from Chekhov, often referred to as Chekhov's Gun:


If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off.


Foreshadowing doesn't have to be blatant. It can be very subtle. Take this scene from episode 2 of Puella Magi Madoka Magica:
(in spoiler tags just in case you haven't seen the show)

In my opinion, Madoka Magica is a great example of *how* to tell a story. You might not like the show, but the way it is put together is amazing. Everything works towards telling the story. From visual cues like the above picture, to the themes, to character development... it all comes together to build and reinforce the story.

That's what's so frustrating with GC. With just a few changes, and some good use of foreshadowing, the story would have worked so much better than it did. Then would could have had an amazingly entertaining show that made sense. That's way better than just entertaining, imo.

Like I've said: I didn't hate the show. I was entertained enough to watch the whole thing. But random plot elements--even if they are as wonderful as "Crazy Mahou Shoujo Inori-san"--break my suspension of disbelief enough that it is hard to get back into the show. And that hampers the entertainment value for me.
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Posted 6/28/13 , edited 6/28/13
deadpanditto^ I'm a big fan of the storytelling in Madoka as well. In many ways I think it was utterly sublime.

For Guilty Crown... how do I put it. Until the end of the first cour it really felt like the writer was anticipating having two full seasons. Then they were told they had to wrap it up in a single cour, and when it came to revisions they still tried to fit everything into the time they had even though they wouldn't have time to fully explain all the elements at play.

I can't imagine that being what actually happened since it was a noitaminA timeslot anime, but its what it felt like. The amount of crunch in the second cour was almost obscene. It was like entire episodes of story were cut out and the rest was just smoothed over as much as they could manage, which would explain the Daath simply disappearing into thin air.

Or maybe Hiroyuki Yoshino was just overambitious. It also looks like this was the first anime he did series composition for where he had to oversee scripts from multiple writers; since then he's overseen others, like Magi, Accel World, and Vividred Operation, but I believe this was the first one where he didn't personally write practically the entire script.
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Posted 6/28/13

DeckardXLeah wrote:

I think that anime... was to promote a band called supercell..


Well Supercell is well known already for people who are somehow familiar with vocaloids. I think so. But to correct that a bit, I guess you meant Egoist (band). I can't tell for sure but if I recall right Supercell and Egoist in Egoist there is vocalist called Chelly. So Egoist is kinda sub-band of Supercell.
So for Egoist it probably was some sort of kickoff.

Tho all this doesn't change the fact that Guilty Crown was bad in some sort of ways but it had it's own really good parts.
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Posted 8/19/13
hype, inflation, expectations, band-wagon...etc. not necessarily the lack of quality, but the ability to meet up to demand.

it's difficult for me to actually hate an anime, if i'm not interested i'll move on.
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Posted 8/20/13
I found it entertainingly and intriguingly bad. Partly for the art, animation and soundtrack, all great, partly for the hilarity of such things as a guy getting ablade right through his body then back on his feet saying it hit no vital organs, partly because I loved to take apart its problems as I watched and wonder how it could have been done right.

They had some good ideas, such as the voids, but the writing was so lacking. It had all the flaws most associated with the medium, a few would have been fine but it just had so many.

Plot logic was out the window, and there was little setup or foreshadowing of the important points, likely because they were writing it as they went. The worst was when the finale paused the climax for a flashback explaining all that should have emerged long before. And many of its best points were taken directly from Neon Genesis Evangelion, which did them better (for all its own flaws).

In Evangelion, Shinji is a well-researched portrait of a reclusive teenager. Shuu for the first half has no clear motivation. Misato in Eva is the most nuanced and active person in the show. Her obvious counterpart in GC is Shuu's mom, who shows up for one episode in her underwear. Rei did not have much depth, but she was more than the sex idol that Inori is. These characters were hardly even archetypes, most had no traits other than their occupation

Eva had a backstory that was used to create an atmosphere of mystery; in GC the mastermind and his plan just appeared out of the blue. GC fell back too often on obnoxious sex-farce clichés (a crucial point: clichés can be accepted if they help the story or just feel good) like accidental groping. And then there's the morality of the anti-heroes: they are killing soldiers for their political aims, which is briefly acknowledged, but never followed up on. Together with the disturbing Japan-is-under-occupation nationalist subtext, it made it hard for me to cheer for them.

Even the fanservice was done wrong. Scenes like the shower-groping chopped the flow of the story while being too short and out of place to be enjoyable on their own.

These were the problems with the first half. Episodes 14-18 were much better. The plot still didn't make much sense, but the writers treated the cast as characters rather than background figures of fanservice props, and they managed to make Shuu into a believable mix of an insecure teenager and an inspiring action hero. After that they seemed to go off on tangent after tangent, as if it were being written round-robin. They killed off a dozen characters, giving them more depth than they had in life. Then came the second climax that felt like a repeat of the first, with an equally incomprehensible backstory.

The whole show was a massive disappointment considering both the budget and the talent. Could it have been better if they aimed for a more conventional action caper rather than Eva-lite? Maybe, but the best part was making good use of that bleakness. One thing's for sure: Dan Eagleman should have appeared more.

Here's a suggestion: re-imagine the better parts of the story with Shuu and Haru reversed. Haru is the unsocial, secretly-crushing protagonist who must step up to the job. Shuu is the upright, caring council president who is gradually won over and eventually dies in her arms. Maybe make Inori male too. Maybe not better, but certainly less clichéd.
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Posted 8/20/13
I consider Guilty Crown a horrible mess of an anime, something that can't live up to it's megar potential.

I consider the studio and Director in charge of this Anime horrible story tellers who are unable to realise that "Show don't tell" applies to character development.


I also consider them among the greatest visual and animation studio currently out there, able to produce high quality animation faster than the other studio's, and far more consistently than them.

Guilty Crown as an anime I give a crappy 4 out of 10 Score, but I also put it at Recommended Viewing for all new to medium Anime fans.

Guilty crown isn't a good representation of story, but it is a visual feast that I do suggest people look at. And it's flaws are in your face. You know what's wrong with Guilty Crown while watching it, and you know what's not. Sword Art Online is more ambiguous. Neon Genesis is more ambiguous.

Not everything is as cut-and-paste fun as Guilty Crown, but it's also an Anime you can't latch on to. No what if's, character exploration, or deeper interpretation. Just face value. Characters were tools that made decisions because thats what the plot demanded.

I don't like that, but it's just an ends to a means.

And the music and visual were the meat of this show, not the character dressings.
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Posted 8/20/13 , edited 8/20/13

Felstalker wrote:

I consider Guilty Crown a horrible mess of an anime, something that can't live up to it's megar potential.

I consider the studio and Director in charge of this Anime horrible story tellers who are unable to realise that "Show don't tell" applies to character development.


Considering the same studio has worked on other anime like Psycho Pass or Code Geass I'm pretty sure you're utterly wrong about that.

I agree that Guilty Crown has a lackluster story but that doesn't really stop it from being really freaking cool. Which is the whole point in my opinion. I think that's an accomplishment all on its own.

Reading over-thought deconstructions of Guilty Crowns story sometimes feels like I'm reading an essay written to describe a rock. Like how much can you honestly come up with looking at a rock. That's not meant to be a literal analogy, surely Guilty Crown has a story more interesting to watch than that of watching a rock, but really now.

It's fun to watch. It wins.
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Posted 8/20/13

zipzo wrote:


Felstalker wrote:

I consider Guilty Crown a horrible mess of an anime, something that can't live up to it's megar potential.

I consider the studio and Director in charge of this Anime horrible story tellers who are unable to realise that "Show don't tell" applies to character development.


Considering the same studio has worked on other anime like Psycho Pass or Code Geass I'm pretty sure you're utterly wrong about that.

I agree that Guilty Crown has a lackluster story but that doesn't really stop it from being really freaking cool. Which is the whole point in my opinion. I think that's an accomplishment all on its own.

Reading over-thought deconstructions of Guilty Crowns story sometimes feels like I'm reading an essay written to describe a rock. Like how much can you honestly come up with looking at a rock. That's not meant to be a literal analogy, surely Guilty Crown has a story more interesting to watch than that of watching a rock, but really now.

It's fun to watch. It wins.


My 3rd quote was very very important to my argument, why'd you skip quoting that part? It's the part where I shouted on how amazing the Guilty Crown experience was to me. It's visually amazing and hits the right notes in music.

I've yet to grab Psycho Pass but I'm told its rather decent. Code Geass rips off original Gundam's story to the point of suicide...but nobody should think less of it for that, it's not the same point of view, just the same characters and events doing the same things in a similar order with similar motives and aspirations.

That said, call me crazy, but Studio Sunrise created Code Geass. The nearest link I could find between Code Geass and Guilty Crown is Ichiro Okouchi. Who collaborated with Code Geass Director Goro Taniguchi with Code Geass, Ichiro being a writer while Goro the director.
And Ichiro Okouchi did "assistant" work on Guilty Crown, which I'm not sure what is..... but it's not the same as Director and Writer.

Guilty Crowns writer Hiroyuki Yoshino WAS however the assistant to Ichiro Okouchi during the production of Code Geass. So they're kinda partners in crime from what I can see. But being an "Assistant" writer and being a "head" writer are not the same thing.

That said, writing and Directing are different.

Guilty Crown director Tetsuro Araki has an odd jumpy habit. His Anime tend to be EPIC FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN EPIC. So he'll have problems telling a story that's not already say, a popular manga. Death Note, High School of the Dead, Gungrave, and Attack on TItan. He has a slight trend of ruining the mid-end halfs of anime. Not a full on ruined, but a "People say the second half isn't as good as the first" reputation. Or so that's what I've picked up.

While Code Geass Director Goro Taniguchi has a reputation of under-rated awesome(to me at least) with Code Geass, Gun x Sword, S-cry-ED.

Guilty Crown is indeed Really freakin cool, but it's not alone. Anything from Studio I.G. has really freaking cool animation, music, visual's, and tones. I'd rather watch Magi, SAO, Attack on Titan, the first 10 episodes of Blue Exorcist....they really dropped the ball on Blue exorcist however...like damn...

Being really freaking cool should be a bonus.

This took a little bit to write, so I'ma just throw in some Bold letters for directors for your reading pleasure, while throwing in color for the point I wanted to get a cross.
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Posted 8/20/13
I watched it fairly early into my first look at anime, and I LOVED it. I knew even then that it had some problems, but at the end of the day, I was glad I had watched it.
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