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Does Anime degrade women?
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23 / F / Sexual Chocolate
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13
Well is certainly hasn't improved the perception of women. The number of competent female characters who pass the Bechdel test is significantly lower than the number of shallow shonen love interests, personality-less tsunderes, and bouncy titted bimbos.

edit: Anime today is less degrading than the anime of the 90's/early 2000's. There's still, excuse this phrase, a fuck ton of work to do.
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20 / M / Louisiana
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Posted 5/7/13
Haha they usually up the boobage to 11 but.. I don't know about degrading them.
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Posted 5/7/13

Des85 wrote:


Shrapnel893 wrote:


AnimeKami wrote:

hentai does it all the time


Not the hentai I watch. I mean, maybe Taimanin Asagi and Kangoku Senkan off the top of my head.


Which hentais do you watch?


Hentai with plot >.>
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13
I've been wanting to make a thread for awhile asking female posters (and male, if they wanted) to give examples of what they consider good and bad female characters in anime (and stereotypes that bother them, etc.). Because I think women watching anime will notice more things about it than men would, and I was curious about that. But I wasn't sure how to phrase it without being sexist. And on that note, 17 of the (now 18) replies to this thread have been male.
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47 / F / Center of the Uni...
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

LynnTerra wrote:

I think in some respects it has, and continues to be, degrading to women. Though on the flip side, you see a lot of strong female leads too that aren't big titty, blonde, brainless, and baring their bodies to everyone like it's going out of style.


THIS

Perhaps not as much now. And Perhaps not necessarily because Japan is more progressive than the west, I infer no Japanese realities from the nature of their cartoons but...

Anime to me has always had more and stronger and less... subjugated?... women than west. It's also had more openly gay, lesbian, transgendered etc. characters who are portrayed in a positive light. or at the very least portrayed as being simply human.

That said, these stronger rare women do have their embarrassingly girly moments. Misa Hayase/Lisa Hayes from Macross comes to mind. She stood out in the 80's as a female military officer in a position of serious command responsibility. It's too bad she was also prone to the occasional fits of emotional helplessness and petty jealousies.

Lately it depends on the anime. but If I cherrry picked my anime, using say... Love Hina as the basis for my complaint I COULD argue that anime is degrading to men and encourages women to be abusive towards them.

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Posted 5/7/13

Insomnist wrote:

I've been wanting to make a thread for awhile asking female posters (and male, if they wanted) to give examples of what they consider good and bad female characters in anime (and stereotypes that bother them, etc.). Because I think women watching anime will notice more things about it than men would, and I was curious about that. But I wasn't sure how to phrase it without being sexist. And on that note, 17 of the (now 18) replies to this thread have been male.


What has my plumbing got to do with my observational abilities regarding cartoons?

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Posted 5/7/13
I think this is a whole cultural thing. Japan as a whole is very different from the west and although they have taken many things from American and European culture one thing that never caught on was women's rights. In the west we had that whole movement for equality and have made many steps towards that. The feminists would of course argue that equality still does not exist but we have made many more steps than in the far east.

Looking at Japanese culture as a whole it has a habit of exploitation when it comes to women. Even a magazine in the convenience for people who collect model trains often has a picture of a swimsuit clad idol on the front and it sells. Idol culture and anime often use females to sell their products and the market for that is huge. Though Japanese women will say they don't feel exploited by that culture and over there since they never had that major push for equality women have settled for the status quo.

So yes i think in the west some areas of Japanese pop culture could appear degrading to women but in a society where they literally do play second best and where much of their existence revolves around pleasing males it is bound to happen.

It is something you either take or leave. But i never felt it fair to judge another culture just for being different from the one i grew up in. That would just be borderline racism.

I have had these sorts of chats with people before who were massive feminists and supporters of women's rights but also fans of Japanese idol groups. I found that a bit strange and hypocritical lol. Like they are fine with it as long as it falls into what they are into.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Insomnist wrote:

I've been wanting to make a thread for awhile asking female posters (and male, if they wanted) to give examples of what they consider good and bad female characters in anime (and stereotypes that bother them, etc.). Because I think women watching anime will notice more things about it than men would, and I was curious about that. But I wasn't sure how to phrase it without being sexist. And on that note, 17 of the (now 18) replies to this thread have been male.


What has my plumbing got to do with my observational abilities regarding cartoons?

Nothing. The cultural gender roles of the community you were raised in though...

For example, no matter how shitty a guy in an anime is I never thought "that guy degrades the male gender." I just think "that guy's a shitty guy," I don't reflect on how he impacts or reflects upon my gender.

But feminism can put the opposite situation in a different light. Which is what I was curious about.

But also what I was struggling with how to express properly.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

Insomnist wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


What has my plumbing got to do with my observational abilities regarding cartoons?

Nothing. The cultural gender roles of the community you were raised in though...


That programming can be bypassed if you care to. and sometimes it outright fails. You are assuming I'm cis-gendered.

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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Insomnist wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


What has my plumbing got to do with my observational abilities regarding cartoons?

Nothing. The cultural gender roles of the community you were raised in though...


That programming can be bypassed if you care to. and sometimes it outright fails. You are assuming I'm cis-gendered.

I think you're being (unintentionally) condescending to transgender, bigender, and hermaphrodite individuals by implying that their role in society is dictated by which gender they choose to identify with when they face MUCH more complex emotional and discriminatory hurdles than that.

I'm simply interested if women (and, fairly, anyone who identifies themselves as a woman) are bothered by female stereotypes that (most) male viewers would not consider to be disturbing.

And if that question is actually in any way sexist or discriminatory (which I do not intend) then I'll shut my trap.

It's simply a point on which I am ignorant, and would like to know more about.
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

Insomnist wrote:


I think you're being (unintentionally) condescending to transgender, bigender, and hermaphrodite individuals by implying that their role in society is dictated by which gender they choose to identify with when they face MUCH more complex emotional and discriminatory hurdles than that.


Why would I be condescending to myself? I'm trying to point out that observational ability is not the strict province of one gender or another. That is all. I understand yes that cultural bias can influence one's perception of gender and other issues and that the values and preconceptions you are raised with will powerfully affect who you are now. That said. As a humanist, (occasionally allied with feminists and sometimes not) I object to any assertion that the Gender I was born with must dictate my ability to appreciate the challenges the other gender faces.

telling me that I'm 'just a stupid boy what do I know'. Is sexism too.

PS -- which in hindsight is NOT what you are saying. Sorry about that. I have my share of kneejerk issues. and though I'm not a member of the 'circle of priviledge' I often pass for one and find it hypocritical that when people assume they know everyone's story just because they appear white and male.

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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13
That's fair, and my bad. I read your first post through the lens of what I already had going on in my head and what I got out of it was incorrect. I'm sorry, and thank you for setting me straight.

What I meant by my second post, if I can try to explain it better, was that people who have an unambiguous birth sex which they identify with throughout their entire lives have a much simpler set of inputs which inform their opinions - they identify with their gender role or they don't (in varying degrees on different topics). People who do not fit into that category (who I have no intention of disrespecting) have several additional layers of complicated cultural and community inputs which further inform their thinking - and I think it's safe to say most of those inputs are generally negative. It's not "I'm a woman" so much as "I'm a woman, but much of my society disagrees or disrespects me for it" (or a man, etc.).

Which is a much more complicated situation when I'm not even straight on the basic differences.

I'm not sure if that's discriminatory; I don't intend it to be. And if it was I truly apologize.

I'm ignorant about many things, so I ask questions.

But admittedly that ignorance can make the questions awkward sometimes.
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Posted 5/7/13

Insomnist wrote:

That's fair, and my bad. I read your first post through the lens of what I already had going on in my head and what I got out of it was incorrect. I'm sorry, and thank you for setting me straight.


It's okay me too. Frankly the way you framed it, is something I'm curious about as well.

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Posted 5/7/13
(I should also apologize for being a chronic post editor).
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Posted 5/7/13 , edited 5/7/13

Pomff wrote:

Well is certainly hasn't improved the perception of women. The number of competent female characters who pass the Bechdel test is significantly lower than the number of shallow shonen love interests, personality-less tsunderes, and bouncy titted bimbos.

edit: Anime today is less degrading than the anime of the 90's/early 2000's. There's still, excuse this phrase, a fuck ton of work to do.


The Bechdel test? please enlighten me?


Insomnist wrote:

(I should also apologize for being a chronic post editor).


That's okay too. I almost invariably mess up the quotes or spoilers when I post and find myself going back to fix that. sometimes I have further thoughs.

what I try to do then though is indicate that those thoughts are an addendum to the original post. usually by placing them at the bottom under a label like (edit) or (postscript)

EDIT

Never mind about Bechdel. Wikipedia is my friend.

Interesting. I would argue Pompf that most anime even if they do have strong capable competant women fail the Bechdel test. an interesting paragraph in the wiki article struck me however.


In an attempt at a quantitative analysis of works as to whether or not they pass the test, at least one researcher, Faith Lawrence, noted that the results depend on how rigorously the test is applied. One of the questions arising from its application is whether a reference to a man at any point within a conversation that also covers other topics invalidates the entire exchange. If not, the question remains how one defines the start and end of a conversation.[1]

Nina Power wrote that the test raises the questions of whether fiction has a duty to represent women (rather than to pursue whatever the creator's own agenda might be) or to be "realistic" in the representation of women. She also wrote that it remained to be determined how often real life passes the Bechdel test, and what the influence of fiction on that might be.[13]
Wikipedia.

The emboldened part is interesting to me. I think it would be hard to have a real conversation with someone on the topic of people without mentioning half the people in the world.

The other thing I wondered was. how often would male characters fail an inverted bechdel test?

Half the guys in anime Rom coms would fail for sure.

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